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Slugworth posted:I honestly don't remember why they were trying to capture him at that point. Not sure if that's a failing of the movie or just my memory. I always assumed they wanted to capture Captain America to hit him with the same mental conditioning they gave to Winter Soldier, but after his escape became imminent, they decided to cut their losses.
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Apr 17, 2017 03:03
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Yeah, the most obvious reason they'd try and capture Captain America is because he is a public hero and figure who's death couldn't be easily written off before Insight came up and who if he can be subverted would be a strong tool for Hydra themselves.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:07
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Lord_Magmar posted:Yeah, the most obvious reason they'd try and capture Captain America is because he is a public hero and figure who's death couldn't be easily written off before Insight came up and who if he can be subverted would be a strong tool for Hydra themselves. And plan B was to kill him outside, elaborately, twice. Again, it's not a movie ruining thing, but it hosed up the flow of the movie for me.
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Apr 17, 2017 06:56
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Snowman_McK posted:Why try to capture him at all then? And why try to capture him by having a bunch of guys karate him in a confined space, a situation that he is perfectly equipped for? They try to capture him because they don't know how much Fury told him, or figured out. This all comes minutes after he refuses to share with Pierce. So here's the logic : Dang, I don't know if Cap knows what Insight is actually is. Or who he told about it. Better capture him and interrogate him. Dang, he beat our ambush. Better kill him. As for "why Winter Soldier doesn't shoot Cap first in the car", the answer is "the movie ends".
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Apr 17, 2017 09:36
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Seedge posted:
Then have him see it coming, swerve the car, etc etc. All action scenes, even great ones by great directors, have cheats. The trick is to either conceal the cheat or have it be a small one. Or, not structure the action scene in a way that draws attention to it (like have the winter soldier remember that he's really good with guns and has heaps of them five seconds after killing someone hand to hand) It's not movie ruining, but it's what separates a decent action scene from a great one.
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Apr 17, 2017 09:48
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WillyTheNewGuy posted:I always assumed they wanted to capture Captain America to hit him with the same mental conditioning they gave to Winter Soldier, but after his escape became imminent, they decided to cut their losses. Or they assume hey, it's Cap, he can survive getting shot up by a vulcan.
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Apr 17, 2017 13:17
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Snowman_McK posted:And plan B was to kill him outside, elaborately, twice. Again, it's not a movie ruining thing, but it hosed up the flow of the movie for me.
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Apr 17, 2017 15:27
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Rumlow probably thought he and his team could take Cap alive. Maybe out of a warped sense of camaraderie? Maybe because he wanted to show Cap up?
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Apr 17, 2017 15:40
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I decided to go back and watch Captain America: Civil War again for the first time since I saw I saw it in the cinema after our discussion about it the last few days and uuuuurgh the first 1/3 is such a slog to sit through. There's a whole bunch of scenes of people sitting around in meeting rooms talking at each other, people sitting around watching videos of things happening, character motivation supplied by people suddenly appearing and delivering biased 'Gotcha!' speeches, plot progression via ultimatum (sign the accords OR ELSE!! You have to find Bucky NOW because the CIA had issued orders to shoot on sight!!!) ... They're obviously trying real hard to shoehorn Captain America and Iron Man into opposing viewpoints to the point that they'd come to blows over their differences but the way the filmmakers go about it is so belaboured and awkward and dull. I'm just about up to the scene where Cap and Bucky fight all the counter-terrorism forces in the stairwell so the pace is about to pick up but it was real hard not to skip scenes before this point.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:22
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:They're obviously trying real hard to shoehorn Captain America and Iron Man into opposing viewpoints to the point that they'd come to blows over their differences but the way the filmmakers go about it is so belaboured and awkward and dull. I think it falters with this just in that Cap and Iron Man make up after that point, and Cap's about to sign the accords, but then he goes nuts because just as he's about to sign it he finds out that Wanda is confined to one of Stark's billion dollar super mansions/Avengers HQ/whatever until she figures out how to not inadvertently kill people whenever she gets confused or angry. In the comic storyline Cap is anti-registration and Iron man is pro-registration, but everything about how they've been developed in the MCU movies would make Captain America for oversight and Iron Man against, so they had to really jump through a lot of exposition hoops and make Captain America an idiot to make it match the comics I guess. Captain America actually has a decent motivation to go either way because of what happened with Shield in Winter Soldier or how much Bucky got screwed over by shadowy government agents doing their own thing, but the turning point is his not wanting Wanda to be locked up. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 16:29
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Neo Rasa posted:I think it falters with this just in that Cap and Iron Man make up after that point, and Cap's about to sign the accords, but then he goes nuts because just as he's about to sign it he finds out that Wanda is confined to one of Stark's billion dollar super mansions/Avengers HQ/whatever until she figures out how to not inadvertently kill people whenever she gets confused or angry. She's under gilded cage arrest not for losing control when confused or angry. She's being detained because she's bad for PR. Her sin was that when she contained the blast from the suicide bomber and attempted to relocate the explosion to a safe altitude she lacked the power to maintain containment of the expanding ball of fire long enough. As a result dozens of lives were saved in the market, but a couple Wakandans got killed and injured. It's a shame that nobody making the movie seemed to quite realize Wakanda was going full US Foreign Policy.
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Apr 17, 2017 16:42
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXCuEZpun-0
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Apr 17, 2017 17:28
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LMAO Snyder can't help himself. "My take...uh...*thinks about talking points*...it's going to be funny and jokes." "Well what about your scene?" "Oh my scene is very dark and intense, very serious stuff."
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Apr 17, 2017 17:32
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Gyges posted:She's under gilded cage arrest not for losing control when confused or angry. She's being detained because she's bad for PR. Her sin was that when she contained the blast from the suicide bomber and attempted to relocate the explosion to a safe altitude she lacked the power to maintain containment of the expanding ball of fire long enough. As a result dozens of lives were saved in the market, but a couple Wakandans got killed and injured. Don't forget that the incident in Sokovia was presented in the previous film as a massive victory for the heroes with some unfortunate but unavoidable losses .... but then in this film Tony makes the shocking discovery that a young upstanding American student also died in Sokovia during the fighting and that was apparently enough to completely change his perception of those events and make him want to sign the Accords. I'm mostly kidding but the fact that the filmmakers felt they had to introduce an American victim to the Sokovia fight in order to make audiences suddenly care about the loss of life there just came across as calculated and a bit gross. It was also weird that General Ross threw the Sokovia deaths in their face but Wanda didn't reply with "My only living relative died in that fight trying to save people you rear end in a top hat"
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Apr 17, 2017 17:59
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:It was also weird that General Ross threw the Sokovia deaths in their face but Wanda didn't reply with "My only living relative died in that fight trying to save people you rear end in a top hat" Yeah and didn't the rest of her family die due to American military interventionism? So a US general lecturing her on controlling her power is like doubly the dumbest loving thing.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:04
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:LMAO Snyder can't help himself. Snyder is amazing for being able to push nerds' buttons JUST so.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:17
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The thing I realized recently is that Zack Snyder basically does "A Modest Proposal" only it's bite off one kid-finger per child instead of eating them whole. Just enough so that people don't get the joke. My worry is that his "comedy/fun" turn is going to be completely inept.
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Apr 17, 2017 18:20
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:There's a whole bunch of scenes of people sitting around in meeting rooms talking at each other, people sitting around watching videos of things happening, character motivation supplied by people suddenly appearing and delivering biased 'Gotcha!' speeches, plot progression via ultimatum (sign the accords OR ELSE!! You have to find Bucky NOW because the CIA had issued orders to shoot on sight!!!) ... I never understood this part as being a legitimate threat in the context of the movie or the MCU. It just seems silly to worry about JSOC or Seal Team 5 or whoever going after Cap, Bucky, & Sam when they regularly chump out squads of dudes who are as comparably well-trained and well-armed. Just kind of shows the contortions that they had to do to make the plot work.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:00
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I'm gonna walk back my analogy because I just re-read part of A Modest Proposal and not eating the kids substantially changes the nature of the satire IMO. So it's a bad analogy.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:26
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:It was also weird that General Ross threw the Sokovia deaths in their face but Wanda didn't reply with "My only living relative died in that fight trying to save people you rear end in a top hat" in fairness to the writers wanda and her only living relative were a bit more complicit in the sokovia deaths than the other avengers actually does the whole 'helped ultron initially' play into the not-house arrest? that might've felt less specious than what we got
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Apr 17, 2017 19:34
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Brother Entropy posted:in fairness to the writers wanda and her only living relative were a bit more complicit in the sokovia deaths than the other avengers Weren't they also pretty brainwashed at that point? Not sci-fi brainwashed, but utterly lied to or gaslighted?
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Apr 17, 2017 19:39
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Just to add a pointless  for context, they don't say that the US military bombed Sokovia. They only say that the bombs used were Stark weapons.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:51
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Drifter posted:Weren't they also pretty brainwashed at that point? Not sci-fi brainwashed, but utterly lied to or gaslighted? Yeah but don't forget that one of the themes in Civil War is that people have to answer for their crimes even if they were 100% brainwashed.  I guess Avengers 2 has a similar theme of "Being involuntarily altered can still make you a monster." poo poo, this series is not kind to abuse victims.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:53
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Yeah but don't forget that one of the themes in Civil War is that people have to answer for their crimes even if they were 100% brainwashed. That's not a theme of Civil War. The only person who thinks that is Tony and that's because Bucky killed his parents. Even when they capture Bucky, the UN holds him for psychiatric evaluation to determine if he is culpable or not.
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Apr 17, 2017 19:59
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Just to add a pointless Yeah I realized that after I posted, they were Stark bombs but they could have been from elsewhere. Although - and I literally don't know anything about military contracts so maybe I am way off here - wouldn't the U.S. military be the ones primarily or even exclusively buying from Stark? Do military contractors literally sell to anyone, or wouldn't the U.S. military specifically have oversight to where they weapons go (like presumably to them and close allies)? If those weapons were stolen/sold to the wrong people, I still think my point stands, at least pedantically. SW is dangerous and needs to be controlled, but her family died because of misapplication of U.S. military technology. Even if we eliminate Ross from the equation, it's still Tony himself who ultimately helps jail her.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:06
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Guy A. Person posted:Yeah I realized that after I posted, they were Stark bombs but they could have been from elsewhere. In Iron Man 1, Tony mentions that they sell to everyone and justifies it by saying that you only need one bomb to stop a war that would have required hundreds. In real life, defense contractors sell to many countries. I just googled Lockheed Martin to get a specific example and they have contracts with at least 27 different governments for helicopters.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:11
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The weapons we're almost certainly US weapons, but the US will sell weapons to other countries or provide them as military aid.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:12
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hmmmm, interesting, thanks for the info.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:15
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Yeah but don't forget that one of the themes in Civil War is that people have to answer for their crimes even if they were 100% brainwashed. But it's kind to rich ones. It's made a wealthy abuser the number 1 character. Go Stark! Keep destroying and/or destabilizing the world because your ego demands it! And for all his arguments in Civil War, didn't he tell Rogers that the Accords'd all be for show because they'd still be the ones in (shadow)charge? Or was that a white lie to get Steve on board?
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Apr 17, 2017 20:17
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Drifter posted:But it's kind to rich ones. It's made a wealthy abuser the number 1 character. Go Stark! Keep destroying and/or destabilizing the world because your ego demands it! He was just trying to reassure Steve with bullshit. Steve says, "What about when we are forced to go somewhere that we shouldn't? Or can't go somewhere that we are needed?" And Tony is just like, "That won't happen! This is as good as it gets. We can still have influence, but we won't have any if we opt out."
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Apr 17, 2017 20:23
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:They're obviously trying real hard to shoehorn Captain America and Iron Man into opposing viewpoints to the point that they'd come to blows over their differences but the way the filmmakers go about it is so belaboured and awkward and dull. And ultimately it doesn't matter, they come to a detente but then Tony finds out Bucky killed his parents and all the rhetoric about accountability and following the rules flies out the window as soon as it's about him and his revenge, just like it is for Cap when it comes to his friendship. The entire conflict supposedly driving the narrative is irrelevant distraction, the climax of the film revolves around two guys fighting over a personal issue that's only incidentally related to everything that came previously. Black Panther is the only one in all of this who really exhibits any growth as a character and it's not even his fight. McSpanky fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Apr 17, 2017 |
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Apr 17, 2017 20:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY9XfmbXOZQ I like this.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:52
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https://twitter.com/Newsarama/status/854055625525010432
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Apr 17, 2017 20:54
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Apr 17, 2017 20:56
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The one kind of interesting thing is Gunn's statement:quote:Much of what’s happened in the MCU for the past ten or so years has been leading, in a big way, to the Avengers’ Infinity War. Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 3 will happen after all that. It will conclude the story of this iteration of the Guardians of the Galaxy, and help catapult both old and new Marvel characters into the next ten years and beyond.
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Apr 17, 2017 20:58
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James Gunn will never be free again  it's wastin him just so he can make the only tolerably entertaining Marvel movies. I want im doing more things like slither and superand no the belko experiment doesn't count GET OUT TAIKI GET OUT WHILE YOU STILL CAN Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The one kind of interesting thing is Gunn's statement:
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Apr 17, 2017 21:00
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Slither and Super are both amazing.Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The one kind of interesting thing is Gunn's statement: This just cracks me up. Like, vague offhand half-references in post credit scenes are driving anything. And I'm sorry, but Thanos in a Chair is hardly a lead up to anything. The past two movies maybe have some semi-related lead up to Infinity War...barely.
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Apr 17, 2017 21:25
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Gatts posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY9XfmbXOZQ Yeah it's really good, and manages to give the character more personality than both of his films. Cares about his friends, cooks, researches, but caustically arrogant.
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Apr 17, 2017 21:33
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Drifter posted:Slither and Super are both amazing. Thanos barely exists, sure. But the stones themselves were the primary MacGuffins in six of the fifteen films, and show up in another two. Infinity War may well end up being a bloated mess (fingers crossed that it doesn't), but if it fails it's not going to be because of a lack of set-up.
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Apr 17, 2017 21:56
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:That's not a theme of Civil War. The only person who thinks that is Tony and that's because Bucky killed his parents. Bucky and Steve also talk about it on the way to Siberia and Bucky also feels that he has to be held accountable even though he was being controlled, ending the conversation by telling him "Yeah, but I did it." Drifter posted:And for all his arguments in Civil War, didn't he tell Rogers that the Accords'd all be for show because they'd still be the ones in (shadow)charge? Or was that a white lie to get Steve on board? Yeah, Tony was making some bullshit promises about making changes and getting the paperwork pushed through later when Steve was just about to sign, right before he finds out about Wanda's house arrest. Black Widow also made an argument that "At least we'd still have one hand on the wheel." Steve's main stance was taken from this speech in the comics (and paraphrases it a fair bit) but they had another character explain it to him in the movie: 
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Apr 17, 2017 21:59
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