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Cyrano4747 posted:This is a relatively new attitude. For a long time Italian industry was considered capable of putting out pretty high quality stuff, albeit on a smaller scale than Germany or the US. Think more along the lines of Rolls Royce than Ford. Italy is still a major force in the automotive world. Italian industry has always been known for innovating at the cost of reliability. Pretty much everyone who owns a Ferrari, Maserati, or Lambo only loves it when it's not in the shop, and they can't drive them often or they'll be there all the time. There's a reason FIAT unofficially stands for "Fix It Again, Tony."
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Nov 1, 2017 14:16
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MrYenko posted:Nothing inspires confidence quite like Italian quality. (looks at shoes) agreed
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Nov 1, 2017 14:17
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Italian industry has always been known for innovating at the cost of reliability. Pretty much everyone who owns a Ferrari, Maserati, or Lambo only loves it when it's not in the shop, and they can't drive them often or they'll be there all the time. Thought that was Ford by Dale Gribble.
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Nov 1, 2017 14:27
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LingcodKilla posted:Thought that was Ford by Dale Gribble. Fix Or Repair Daily
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Nov 1, 2017 14:59
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My one anecdote is that I once contracted at a place making multi-million dollar industrial milling machines. They switched their parts supplier because the Italian one sent them poorly finished poorly toleranced stuff for the drive mechanisms, repeatedly. They had never had a problem with the German supplier they switched to. Of course this is only one anecdote and that does not a dataset make, etc.
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Nov 1, 2017 15:05
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I work with a bunch of Italian engineers and physicists and even they make fun of how often Italian made stuff breaks and catches fire.
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Nov 1, 2017 15:12
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Faith-based maintenance
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Nov 1, 2017 15:32
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shame on an IGA posted:Faith-based maintenance how Warhammer 40k of you
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Nov 1, 2017 15:36
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Waroduce posted:how Warhammer 40k of you But that works in wh40k.
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Nov 1, 2017 15:38
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Dr_Strangelove posted:Fix Or Repair Daily https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AJCdmW33fM
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Nov 1, 2017 16:03
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Ohhhhhhhhh... Dale ain't the sharpest tool.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:15
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I don't think the Turkey for engines thing is going to last.
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Nov 1, 2017 16:49
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Force de Fappe posted:Why do I always have this impression that out of the Nordic countries, Finland has the crappiest military service..?
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Nov 1, 2017 17:53
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Italian industry has always been known for innovating at the cost of reliability. Pretty much everyone who owns a Ferrari, Maserati, or Lambo only loves it when it's not in the shop, and they can't drive them often or they'll be there all the time.
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Nov 1, 2017 18:03
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RandomPauI posted:It's supposed to do cas, be a bomb truck, be an air superiority fighter, do forward air control, and perform electronic warfare. So the f-15, f-16, a-10, ea-6, ea-18, and whatever the harrier and bronco are. Also, the F-35 is not, as far as I am aware, slated to replace the Prowler/Growler or F-15.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:01
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German cars are very good at passing through quality tests.
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Nov 1, 2017 19:01
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evil_bunnY posted:The others have long since given up the pretense of being an effective self defense force.  Sweden's defense policy since the 80s has been "hold out for a few days and hope NATO saves our skin."
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Nov 1, 2017 19:19
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The F-35 is better than the aircraft it is replacing in most aspects. The problem is that it's lifetime costs are too high. The bulk of the USAF modernization dollars for the past decade have been sunk into the F-35. That decision cost the USAF elsewhere, producing capability gaps which will take time to fix. (e.g. making the USAF a better place for pilots costs money, money which went into the F-35) Worse, there isn't going to be a magic increase in the USAF budget anytime soon. So air superiority, strategic reconnaissance, and bombers will have to find money around the edges of the F-35 program. This is a reversal of the classic airpower hierarchy of importance...
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Nov 1, 2017 21:02
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I don't think the US could design and produce a cheaper aircraft without radically reforming procurement.
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Nov 1, 2017 21:13
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Raenir Salazar posted:I don't think the US could design and produce a cheaper aircraft without radically reforming procurement. I mean, sure, but that's kind of like saying "we can't improve this burrito unless the employees stop making GBS threads in the beans." Radically reforming procurement would be job number 1 if we really wanted to go about un-loving a whole lot of things.
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Nov 1, 2017 21:19
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Because the money's already been dumped into lifttime costs of R&D it would be foolish not to buy a ton of them now that the per airframe cost is dropping. 95m a pop is actually a good deal. If you were to not have the history of trillions of dollars dumped into development (Thanks 35B!) that sticker price would be astounding for the capabilities offered. The more bought the lower the marginal costs on R&D and downtime maintenance become.
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Nov 1, 2017 21:42
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Collateral Damage posted:Sad but true. Imagine for a moment that I'm Koesj (where is he these days anyway) getting triggered by a post talking about the Fulda Gap. The doctrine wasn't like that. Now you could certainly argue that it's something like that, but definitely not before 2000. I mean, I can certainly see Wallerfelt's point when he argued that the entire margin doctrine thing (which wasn't really doctrine as much as it was an unspoken assumption taken for granted) was essentially putting the cart before the horse, but nevertheless that's what the planners did for essentially the entire Cold War and all the way up to the 2000 and 2004 disasters that the military has yet to recover from. In brief for those of you who aren't gigantic Swedish Cold War spergs, the "margin doctrine" was the idea that a Soviet attack on an isolated Sweden was exceedingly unlikely since there really wasn't much of a strategic reason for it, and so the more likely scenario was Sweden being "on the margins" of a greater Soviet/NATO conflict. Staff officer and historian Bengt Wallerfelt, pbuh, argued that this assumption was a load of horseshit. The reason for the entire thing was, he claimed, that since it was naturally completely impossible for an isolated Sweden to make any kind of reasonable war effort against a nuclear superpower and joining NATO to ensure help from the other superpower was a political impossibility, the staffs just scaled down the threat until they got a conveniently sized one that was possible to resist. The threat level was shaped by the strength of our own armed forces rather than by that of the Soviets, according to Wallerfelt (who obviously was a strong proponent of joining NATO). Now, regardless of whether the margin doctrine's prediction was actually right or not, the planning hinged upon it, and the actual Swedish policy was in no way reliant on NATO. If you look at the declassified ops planning (see Hugemark et al, Den stora invasionen), up until the 1960's there are some emphasis on defending areas necessary for receiving help (certain corridors to Norway, certain harbours) and in some war games there were even NATO nukes deployed on Swedish territory on explicit Swedish request (there's even some murky statements in some documents I've seen that imply deploying NATO nukes on Swedish platforms was at least an imagined possibility), but all of this disappears from the planning during the 1970's. The under-the-table cooperation - especially wrt the navy and the air force - was still there, but it was less central to the planning. Either way though, the tacit assumption common to all of this all the way up to the late 1990's was that the conflict would be involving most of Europe and as such everyone would be busy with their own problems, so there would be little or no help available in any case. The planning hinged on making the naval invasion either an incredibly risky gamble (if E1 and/or the navy had at least somewhat free reins) or requiring a long rear end preparatory phase during which it would be possible to put the slow-as-molasses infantry brigades in place to repel the landing once it actually did happen. Up north was hairier but I'll have to return to that at some other point because it's bedtime. Unrelatedly, have some photos of planes in sorta awkward positions. The ones with a gun sight pipper in them are taken from Drakens, the others from Viggens.    
TheFluff fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 1, 2017 23:51
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Sweden's defensive policy has always been "make Finland and Poland look way easier to invade from a planning perspective." And they've always been exceptionally good at doing just that.
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Nov 2, 2017 02:46
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evil_bunnY posted:It's funny because McLarens are worse. German cars are a mixed bag but generally the fancier the more bullshit mx I wish the stereotype of British cars having lovely electronics wasn’t true but the last few British cars I’ve driven have been brand new and each one has had some sort of electronics bug or two.
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Nov 2, 2017 03:16
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drgitlin posted:I wish the stereotype of British cars having lovely electronics wasn’t true but the last few British cars I’ve driven have been brand new and each one has had some sort of electronics bug or two. Obligatory: 
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Nov 2, 2017 03:20
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Just what sort of forces would've the Soviets even deployed to Sweden. Would it be follow up echelons after taking out Finland, a naval invasion, or both? Strategically I guess if you're paranoid about Sweden inviting in NATO troops to try to flank you, disrupt aid to Finland (aren't they supposed to be firmly neutral?), and maybe try to get additional buffer for your own naval assets? Stepping stone to securing Denmark to try to disrupt REFORGER?
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Nov 2, 2017 03:30
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Italian industry has always been known for innovating at the cost of reliability. Pretty much everyone who owns a Ferrari, Maserati, or Lambo only loves it when it's not in the shop, and they can't drive them often or they'll be there all the time. One of the interesting criticisms of Tesla I've read is that they are too much like this, with no path forward to the type of mass produced quality non-rich people need. Also, "Found on Road Dead"
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Nov 2, 2017 03:41
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Edit: misread, my bad
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Nov 2, 2017 03:41
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pthighs posted:Also, "Found on Road Dead" “Fucker Only Runs Downhill” is my personal favorite. Content: The Ford Aerospace MGM-51 Shillelagh. From a time when men were men, and tanks fired missiles, because APFSDS hadn’t been invented yet, and because we wanted even our airborne troops to have armor support. 
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Nov 2, 2017 03:53
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pthighs posted:One of the interesting criticisms of Tesla I've read is that they are too much like this, with no path forward to the type of mass produced quality non-rich people need. It's basically the nature of hand building anything. People aren't standardized and robots don't make mistakes. Stuff like the civillian versions of he HMMVW and Gelandewagen which are hand built on the same lines as the military versions generally have awful build quality, parts that don't fit on another car, etc. Because for vehicles like that the sales volume is too low to justify a big investment in an automated production line, which is kind of amusing when the people who buy these six figure poseur mobiles expect quality better than your average Honda Civic (an extremely high quality, well built and well designed vehicle that has had billions poured into both the design and the assembly facilities).
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Nov 2, 2017 04:05
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Raenir Salazar posted:Just what sort of forces would've the Soviets even deployed to Sweden. Would it be follow up echelons after taking out Finland, a naval invasion, or both? I think you need to consult the primary historical document "Wargame: Airland Battle" for this one. You can pick it up on Steam.
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Nov 2, 2017 05:31
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F-14: Fleet Defender had a bug/feature where attacking Warsaw Pact forces would violate Swedish airspace and get shot down, leaving you unable to complete mission objectives.
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Nov 2, 2017 06:04
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MrYenko posted:“Fucker Only Runs Downhill” is my personal favorite. The Shillelagh and it's assorted firing hardware does fit in with the Ford reliability profile, it liked to head for dirt much more often than toward it's intended target. Also the pedantic rivet counter in me must point out that APFSDS has existed in service since 1961, on the first tank to field a smoothbore gun and ugly ducking of the Soviet postwar MBTs, the T-62.
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Nov 2, 2017 07:26
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Raenir Salazar posted:Just what sort of forces would've the Soviets even deployed to Sweden. Would it be follow up echelons after taking out Finland, a naval invasion, or both?
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Nov 2, 2017 09:32
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Arglebargle III posted:I think you need to consult the primary historical document "Wargame: Airland Battle" for this one. You can pick it up on Steam. This is pretty much true. IIRC Eugen did their homework for units ear marked for that theatre. The TOEs are ofc whack and wrong though.
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Nov 2, 2017 12:04
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Kafouille posted:The Shillelagh and it's assorted firing hardware does fit in with the Ford reliability profile, it liked to head for dirt much more often than toward it's intended target. Also the pedantic rivet counter in me must point out that APFSDS has existed in service since 1961, on the first tank to field a smoothbore gun and ugly ducking of the Soviet postwar MBTs, the T-62. It's interesting that APDS had been around with well known stability issues but it took decades to put fins on it. Saboting rounds themselves have been around centuries.
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Nov 2, 2017 12:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:Just what sort of forces would've the Soviets even deployed to Sweden. Would it be follow up echelons after taking out Finland, a naval invasion, or both? I only know what the Swedish planners thought, not what the Soviets were actually planning. Essentially the Swedish HQ figured that the Soviets probably wouldn't be all that interested in Sweden itself (although they expected attempts to decapitate the high command or quickly pacify the country by taking e.g. Stockholm), and would merely attempt to control certain strategic areas important for disrupting NATO activities. Controlling the Sound (by far the most important way in and out of the Baltic) was one of these, Gotland was another. Attempting to get at the Norwegian Atlantic harbours by taking a shortcut through Finland and northern Sweden was also expected.
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Nov 2, 2017 12:59
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BIG HEADLINE posted:Italian industry has always been known for innovating at the cost of reliability. Pretty much everyone who owns a Ferrari, Maserati, or Lambo only loves it when it's not in the shop, and they can't drive them often or they'll be there all the time. The main problem with italian mass/heavy manifacturing is unions, old school italian car production unions make UAW look like girl scouts. Marchionne's greatest achievement in production volume/quality improvement was to move most of the product line OUT of the unionized production sites into foreign ones(one of the latest FIAT models in  , which is driving the medium-to low end, is the Tipo, a Dodge Dart made from the Tofas plants in Turkey). Union reactions in recent times have been hilariously counterproductive to them, depowering them in the long run. When the new Panda was introduced, from the new lines in Poland, strikes provided a lower quality output for the italian made small city car of the time. Whoever had to buy a cheap city car had to decide if they wanted to play the lottery and buy a badly made fiat at the time, choose another brand of car or wait for the Panda to trickle down to car lots. All of this provided bad publicity for italian manufacturing, lower sales to the italian made plants and more sales to the "foreign" Panda.Self deprecating is main sport so we mostly buy foreign if we can and italian if we must 
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Nov 2, 2017 14:30
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I’ll never forget the box blurb of an espresso machine starbucks was selling: “German designed and Italian engineered” and I was like uhhh I think you guys got it rear end-backwards.
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Nov 2, 2017 14:38
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pthighs posted:One of the interesting criticisms of Tesla I've read is that they are too much like this, with no path forward to the type of mass produced quality non-rich people need. They literally just don't know how to do an assembly line. I don't know why they didn't hire a bunch of people who already knew how to do an assembly line instead of trying to figure it out on their own, but they're figuring out on their own and it's not pretty. They reportedly have parts piled up on the floor waiting to go into cars (You don't do that, because when you find that the manufacturer screwed up and delivered something not to spec now you're scrapping all the parts you have that piled up on the floor before you figured it out), their takt time is insanely high relative to everyone else, they entirely forewent a manufacturing prototype for the assembly line. Shades of the F-35: You're supposed to figure poo poo out *before* you start mass production, not *while* you're attempting mass production. Basically this is poo poo every single other carmaker has figured out decades ago and Tesla is for some reason insisting on relearning all the lessons on its own rather than using the experiences of everyone who came before. They made 260 cars last *quarter*. They had over half a million pre-orders for the Model 3. priznat posted:I’ll never forget the box blurb of an espresso machine starbucks was selling: “German designed and Italian engineered” and I was like uhhh I think you guys got it rear end-backwards. Very old joke: In Heaven, all the cops are British, the cooks are Italian, the lovers are French, the Germans are the engineers, and the Swiss run everything. In Hell, the cops are German, the chefs are British, the engineers are French, and the Italians run everything. Phanatic fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Nov 2, 2017 |
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Nov 2, 2017 14:57
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