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ThisIsNoZaku posted:I would have liked Caesar's Legion being a more legitimate choice for who controls Vegas. To be fair, if you're willing to trust Caesar's word then he acknowledges the Legion's current state as deplorable, and that he wants to conquer NCR specifically to absorb their culture and humane philosophy. It's possible that the Legion would fail to do so and just consume the NCR, but it's at least a rational goal beyond "MURDER RAPE". Caesar is basically Reluctant Authoritarian. I made an argument ITT that, if it werent for the fact that we know for certain that the world isn't Arizona levels of desolate hostility, they would be the best choice for conquering America based on their ability to tame the land, their willingness to conquer land not conventionally valuable (remember that the only reason the NCR is even an option is because they want the Dam), and the fact that they are guaranteed to break up into separate city states once they run out of areas conquered (as hinted in-game and by Ropekid). They're basically an "ends justify the means, Survival over Soliloquy" faction looking from outside inward. Of course, since we know that the east coast is composed of teleporting robots and baseball cities, California has heavily recovered, and DC is shown signs of recovery, the Legion Gambit is significantly less attractive. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 19:30 on May 16, 2018 |
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May 16, 2018 19:11
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OctaviusBeaver posted:I recommend Emerald Pool Trail for something moderate and Hidden Canyon Trail if you want something scary. Angel's Landing was just terrifying, never again. Ha! I will say I'm glad I did it, but good lord what a terrifying experience that was. I'm just glad I started early in the morning, since going through the chains and back with a giant line in front of and in back of me an sounds like the opposite of a fun time. Anyway, I'm grabbing lunch now, then I'll probably hike a bit of the Narrows before I have to head out.
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May 16, 2018 20:07
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Since this is now the Zion national park thread, try not to day trip it from Vegas if you can spend the night in the park/area and more then one day. Day trip is still worth it, if that's your only choice, but so rushed.
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May 16, 2018 20:10
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Neurolimal posted:
There are a lot more immediately pressing reasons why the Legion is unappealing
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May 18, 2018 01:45
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The legion was completely unappealing to me because of the extreme misogyny. Like even if the game had showed some legion run towns and been better at getting across that they could effectively protect people/settlements from bandits better than the NCR they would still wouldn't be a viable option. They can't be a 'the ends justfies the means' faction because the ends is half the population being enslaved. No matter how neglectful the NCR is or how bad things are in unaffiliated mojave towns it's still better than being enslaved. Even from a utilitarian perspective, if say 50% of the population were being terrorised by bandits a legion takeover would still leave the overall population worse off given women outnumber men. At least with communist authoritarianism when ~enemies of the state are being killed, and people have to deal with shortages and bad conditions etc you can argue that more people would be killed under capitalism and just as many would suffer from poverty. With the legion that doesn't work because even if you assume all the soldiers and male citizens of the legion are living completely perfect happy lives, half the population is living in slavery. Also they just look so loving goofy with their roman cosplaying but I think like with the kings that was deliberate? Helps undercut the horror of genocide and underscore how bizarre caesars ideals are.
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May 18, 2018 03:48
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the first legion dude you meet is a total shithead... he's a legit 'do the village' type of rear end in a top hat. so I shot him. I also shot the lottery winner, he was kind of a tool. then the black dude who asked about bottle caps, waaaay fuckin' creepy. which means I hate that first legion gently caress even more, he started a job and didn't finish. hate those types of people.
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May 18, 2018 03:55
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jfood posted:I also shot the lottery winner, he was kind of a tool. Funny story, that guy is based on a Goon. He won a fanfiction contest and so was put into the game, and is very sad that everyone shoots him in the face. Explains why he's such a goon though.
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May 18, 2018 04:15
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e: ^^^^^ well poo poo, sometimes I used to let him go just to change things up. Can't do that any more.jfood posted:then the black dude who asked about bottle caps, waaaay fuckin' creepy. Are you talking about the guy who stalks you across the the length and breadth of the Mojave just to lock you into a conversation and ask "is that a star bottle cap I saw you pick up four towns ago?" Because half the time he shows up in the middle of a gunfight and ends up getting a bullet between the eyes as collateral damage.
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May 18, 2018 04:21
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simmering posted:The legion was completely unappealing to me because of the extreme misogyny.l I feel like most of the Caesar-sympathetic players are male gamers. If there were magically as many female gamers as there are male, I wonder if there would be more complaints that joining caesars legion is a non-option. Its sort of the same reason why I hardly play the Nazis in any WW2 game. Hard to immerse myself in that experience when “winning” means me, my family, and most of my friends get exterminated. Unfortunately that mindset locks me out of a lot of content across many games. But it’s the side effect of inserting myself into the player-character’s body. Of course maybe I’m an anomaly and no one else does this and this post becomes really embarrassing, in that case welp.
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May 18, 2018 04:54
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Wingnut Ninja posted:Are you talking about the guy... yea, the dude in the hardware who just wanted to get high was chill... we did some drugs, then I looted the town. nipton 10/10, would not visit again cuz I took all their poo poo.
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May 18, 2018 04:58
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I sometimes like to play devil's advocate for the Legion and act like they're a more reasonable option than they are, because otherwise it makes them so flat it's boring. Don't know of any videogames where you play the Nazis beyond just B team in a multiplayer conflict though.
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May 18, 2018 05:33
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If there is one thing that “gamer culture” doesn’t need, it’s a genuine AAA attempt at appealing nazis. The users generate enough of that poo poo on their own, tyvm.
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May 18, 2018 05:43
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simmering posted:The legion was completely unappealing to me because of the extreme misogyny... That's why the last point is so important; House, Caesar, Yes Man, most of the Legion endings, even the developers point out that the Legion in its current state will dissolve when Caesar dies. In the legion gambit I mentioned the idea is that the end state would be the Legion dissolving, leaving stable independent city-states free of raiders. If you're willing to accept material outside the game, Ropekid was once asked to describe a Legion city when Caesar's army isn't around, and the sexes are a bit more balanced in that case. Like with the rest of the Legion's total warfare strategy, their treatment of women in warfare is geared towards fueling their war machine, along similar lines as reserving high-tech weapons for veterans, mass recruiting conquered lands to recover losses, suiciding charging rookies to provide distractions, combining the roles of "Ambassador" and "Spy", and mandatory drafting of young males. That's why female couriers can serve Caesar; it's not ideology that makes him objectify women, but cruel, inhumane practicality. (Note that none of this excuses Caesar's treatment of women, of course. Simply that it provides context.) buglord posted:I feel like most of the Caesar-sympathetic players are male gamers. If there were magically as many female gamers as there are male, I wonder if there would be more complaints that joining caesars legion is a non-option. Ironically enough, one of the few posters ITT that have done a Caesar run was a woman (she really liked running around in sports gear and a giant sword  )
Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 05:49 on May 18, 2018 |
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May 18, 2018 05:44
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on one hand, you can argue that the legion is awful but makes some utilitarian sense as long as there's no price you're not willing to have other people pay. on the other, they totally fall down there because it's blatantly obivious that they're going to fall apart as soon as caesar dies because his successor and also p much everyone else is a psychopath with no higher goals. turns out fascism is dumb?
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May 18, 2018 06:16
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StashAugustine posted:on one hand, you can argue that the legion is awful but makes some utilitarian sense as long as there's no price you're not willing to have other people pay. on the other, they totally fall down there because it's blatantly obivious that they're going to fall apart as soon as caesar dies because his successor and also p much everyone else is a psychopath with no higher goals. turns out fascism is dumb? That depends on how they fall apart. It's kind of unrealistic to believe that suddenly every city would collapse into bloodbaths because an old guy died of cancer a state away.
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May 18, 2018 06:19
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There are many arguments to be made for supporting Caesar's Legion, it's just that our grandmothers would not be pleased with any of them.
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May 18, 2018 07:38
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jfood posted:yea, the dude in the hardware who just wanted to get high was chill... we did some drugs, then I looted the town. Boxcars? The dude that got his legs broken by the Legion dorks and wanted a lethal dose of Med-X?
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May 18, 2018 10:39
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That guy had an attitude, gently caress him too 
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May 18, 2018 11:19
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Neurolimal posted:That depends on how they fall apart. It's kind of unrealistic to believe that suddenly every city would collapse into bloodbaths because an old guy died of cancer a state away. Caesar's plan is for the Legion's loyalty to be anchored to the great old world city of Las Vegas rather than him once he takes it over, so siding with the Legion involves correcting that particular logistical flaw
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May 18, 2018 13:31
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I like to leave Boxcars where he is
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May 18, 2018 21:37
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Neurolimal posted:
Hm that doesn't really make them more sensible to me. How does enslaving half the population benefit the war machine? If 'you get jobs and sex slaves' was the legion's recruiting tactic ala isis it would make more sense but the legion forcibly recruits men, it doesn't need a marketing pitch. Being at war actually makes using women only as sex slaves and servants even more stupid given bodies are something they clearly need (you could say well if they used women as soldiers they couldn't be having babies but given their aim is to conquer the mojave now not in the 15 or so years it'd take for those kids to be born and grow up enough to fight it still makes little sense, especially given caesars time limit to take over vegas.) and they're facing an enemy that has no problem utilising female soldiers effectively. all that makes me think it's purely caesar's ideology and prejudice that fuels the legions misogyny, which isn't exactly unusual or unrealistic for strong man dictatorships but it doesn't make them appealing to join as a player. Though as a woman idk if I ever could be convinced that it's practical or useful to enslave women rather than treat us as equals. Convinced that a character thinks thats womens natural place or just enjoys the benefits that sexism brings them sure but objectively the utilitarian choice? Nah. Plenty of men irl who are geniuses in some areas regard women as barely human so it's hardly unrealistic for him to be that misogynistic but it does make the legion less appealing and makes arguments that caesar is some objective genius who puts effectiveness and utility over everything fall flat for me. the legion is just as impractical and obsessed with ideology as the NCR and wants a return to the old world in some of the worst possible ways.
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May 19, 2018 03:20
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Iirc it's supposed to be less of an incentive thing and more of a morale boost, with well-performing soldiers getting personal slaves. Low morale gets you situations like Ulysses, a high-value spy that left the legion inmediately after his first assignment. I agree that it would make more sense for them to give slaves the chance of freedom if they acted as soldiers when a campaign is going poorly (like the New Vegas one if you're not helping the Legion). You could even have a dilemma where a slave the player's helped before is now trying to kill them for her freedom.
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May 19, 2018 03:32
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The Legion would've been a lot more interesting if it had drawn more from ancient societies (ironically). The heavily regimented, hierarchical and patriarchal society of Rome itself would've still contrasted to the basically-the-US-now NCR, while also having some argument behind it like "everybody knows their place and works for the greater whole". Or if you're going for full militarism, there's Sparta, famous for its egalitarianism despite the primary job of its women being making more Spartans. With the massive helot population below them, of course.
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May 19, 2018 04:09
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I think no matter the "solution" for grounding the Legion, the fact of the matter is they didn't have time to flesh it out, and they would have benefited greatly as a faction by a longer dev period.
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May 19, 2018 04:13
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Yeah, one of the big ironies of ancient societies compared to modern ones is that it's authoritarian, oligarchic, bulk of the population composed of slaves Sparta where women had the most rights, whereas democratic Athens and republican Rome could barely stand letting women do anything. Of course, you do get to see the Legion women doing more than just getting raped and having children, there are some lugging around comical loads of poo poo in the camp. It might follow that the women back in Legion territory are also the only ones that take care of the non-com stuff away from the front. A bunch of the information on the Legion's inner workings is contradictory though, there's one source that says that they make every man in an absorbed tribe into a soldier, but then there's that merchant just hanging around in the camp with his own story.
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May 19, 2018 05:24
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SlothfulCobra posted:Yeah, one of the big ironies of ancient societies compared to modern ones is that it's authoritarian, oligarchic, bulk of the population composed of slaves Sparta where women had the most rights, whereas democratic Athens and republican Rome could barely stand letting women do anything. The impression I got was that life in Legion-governed territory was not run along the same lines as the Legion as a nomadic military force itself, and that not everyone was considered a tribal, so farmers and normal townspeople weren't made part of the Legion. I'd presume that there were still slaves in the territories, but not everyone.
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May 19, 2018 07:28
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SlothfulCobra posted:Of course, you do get to see the Legion women doing more than just getting raped and having children, there are some lugging around comical loads of poo poo in the camp. That part of the game got a real ugly laugh out of me. I already thought the Legion's treatment of women was evil in a very on-the-nose sort of way, but then you get to the fort and see that and it's like "Okay, wow, I guess subtlety is completely dead then".
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May 19, 2018 09:10
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boxcars, sent to a maximum security ncr prison, is much less rapey and gross than this thread so he gets a pass.
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May 19, 2018 09:32
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simmering posted:Hm that doesn't really make them more sensible to me. How does enslaving half the population benefit the war machine? If 'you get jobs and sex slaves' was the legion's recruiting tactic ala isis it would make more sense but the legion forcibly recruits men, it doesn't need a marketing pitch. Being at war actually makes using women only as sex slaves and servants even more stupid given bodies are something they clearly need (you could say well if they used women as soldiers they couldn't be having babies but given their aim is to conquer the mojave now not in the 15 or so years it'd take for those kids to be born and grow up enough to fight it still makes little sense, especially given caesars time limit to take over vegas.) and they're facing an enemy that has no problem utilising female soldiers effectively. all that makes me think it's purely caesar's ideology and prejudice that fuels the legions misogyny, which isn't exactly unusual or unrealistic for strong man dictatorships but it doesn't make them appealing to join as a player. Caesar has a huge focus on having new babies for a few reasons. First off legion takes in a lot of outside culture that basically just gets told youre legion now. These people arent super loyal to legion, once caesar dies they might just return to their old cultural ways which is a big nono for caesar since he wants old cultures eradicated. Now a new born legion baby? That guys going to be super loyal to the legion. Hes going to be filled with propaganda of how great the legion is. He barely has no idea there even was a tribe outside the legion. He only knows the legion, he has nothing but the legion to fall back on once Caesar dies. Secondly legion goes through soldiers like crazy since they use rather effective strategies but they also consume a lot of life. There simply needs to be a engine that produces a lot of babies and takes care of them in the background so this constant violent expansion is possible. If they didnt have means to replenish their numbers their expansion would slow down due having to wait for soldier numbers to replenish. And caesar doesent exactly have time on his side since he wants to get things done in his own life time.
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May 19, 2018 09:44
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Iretep posted:Caesar has a huge focus on having new babies for a few reasons. First off legion takes in a lot of outside culture that basically just gets told youre legion now. These people arent super loyal to legion, once caesar dies they might just return to their old cultural ways which is a big nono for caesar since he wants old cultures eradicated. Now a new born legion baby? That guys going to be super loyal to the legion. Hes going to be filled with propaganda of how great the legion is. He barely has no idea there even was a tribe outside the legion. He only knows the legion, he has nothing but the legion to fall back on once Caesar dies. I don't remember how the timeline works, but how long has Caeser and the legion been around at the start of the game, because if it's less than 15 years the babies haven't been helping anything.
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May 19, 2018 09:50
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Skwirl posted:I don't remember how the timeline works, but how long has Caeser and the legion been around at the start of the game, because if it's less than 15 years the babies haven't been helping anything. 34 years. And the Legion doesn't strike me as a group that would have moral qualms about using child soldiers.
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May 19, 2018 10:00
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Skwirl posted:I don't remember how the timeline works, but how long has Caeser and the legion been around at the start of the game, because if it's less than 15 years the babies haven't been helping anything. i think legion started around 34 years before the game started. also legion started 7 years after fallout 2 happened. so if you were a time traveling jerk you could go and kill caesar while he was living with the followers of the apocalypse.
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May 19, 2018 10:03
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chiasaur11 posted:34 years. And the Legion doesn't strike me as a group that would have moral qualms about using child soldiers. I'd only use child soldiers because they can't die in Gamebryo.
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May 19, 2018 10:08
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chiasaur11 posted:34 years. And the Legion doesn't strike me as a group that would have moral qualms about using child soldiers. The Legion flat out does. Ranger Andy in Novac tells you he was injured via a grenade dropped by a kid and that the Legion uses them because NCR troops hesitate in such situations.
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May 19, 2018 10:18
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I don't side with the Legion because being mean to people makes me feel bad
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May 19, 2018 13:06
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Improbable Lobster posted:I don't side with the Legion because being mean to people makes me feel bad Same. While I'm arguing that the Legion is/could be deeper than they appear, I've never actually done a legion run because I'm a big feels baby (also why I pacifist stealth run any game that allows that).
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May 19, 2018 14:40
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Split the difference and do a Legion pacifist run.
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May 19, 2018 14:46
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There isnt even much point to doing a proper legion run since just shooting NCR people blindly would lead to so much content lost even on legion side. A few of the NCR missions have legion resolutions so just playing both sides and favoring legion is the saner solution. Basically you pretend to be on NCRs side while making them weaker secretly. I cant remember doing anything really evil in my legion run besides giving bad endings to half my followers and feeding Boone to cannibals. Though i should really do a proper evil playthrough some day, its just really hard it seems since sensible choices often lead to good karma.
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May 19, 2018 14:48
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if the 'great family' plotlines had been in caesar's camp, with reformist gracci, strict catonians and genocidal laniuvians it probably would have made for a better legion experience. fitting too. but like someone else said, it's ridiculously gated content.
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May 19, 2018 16:15
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being at the point where you're sorta friendly with ncr but full on legion (in secret) is a pretty good feeling. you can go around sandmanning soldiers in their barracks, do legion quests, bungle storylines and so on. Feels good man
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May 19, 2018 16:52
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