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buglord posted:So does the M1 chip mean mac gaming on steam is dead(er)? I already lost access to the one game I could play well on steam on my 2013 MBPr (Dungeons of Dredmor) when they switched to x64 code or whatever. Does M1 basically erase any and all compatibility for other games going forward? Almost certainly, but there's a good amount of games via the app store and steam that were ported to PC that probably were already ARM-based on mobile. Not good ones, really, but games. Some of those might be, ya know, un-ported? I don't know. I can see a big push for iOS games having macOS versions with bigger/better things. Especially with apple arcade sticking around. Gaming on macs has been dead or barely alive for like 10 years, depending on how much you like old Blizzard games.
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Nov 16, 2020 08:58
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If I buy an Intel-based MBP13 right now, will it come with Big Sur? I don't want Big Sur.
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Nov 16, 2020 09:00
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buglord posted:So does the M1 chip mean mac gaming on steam is dead(er)? *if you like mobile games
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Nov 16, 2020 09:50
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what's the status of running iOS apps on macs?
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Nov 16, 2020 09:53
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busfahrer posted:If I buy an Intel-based MBP13 right now, will it come with Big Sur? I don't want Big Sur.
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Nov 16, 2020 10:13
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shrike82 posted:what's the status of running iOS apps on macs? Better than Chrome can run Android apps, but they need to have bothered doing the conversion with Catalyst (Intel Macs). iOS apps will run natively on ARM Macs with Big Sur. https://9to5mac.com/2020/11/11/apple-reminds-developers-about-ios-apps-on-mac-app-store-and-potential-compatibility-issues/ quote:As Apple has already confirmed and we have detailed here, the new Macs with the M1 chip will run iOS apps natively. And to push this feature forward, Apple will add nearly all iOS apps to the Mac App Store. However, there are some apps that will not be available to Mac users — either by developer choice or compatibility issues. Mister Facetious fucked around with this message at 10:41 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 10:37
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shrike82 posted:what's the status of running iOS apps on macs? afaik they will run as is on an apple silicon mac
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Nov 16, 2020 10:38
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My good old iMac 27” is not compatible with Big Sur apparently, this is a shame but I’ve been thinking about changing to a MacBook Pro but looking at the Apple store I’m a bit confused as to what to go for... I could go for the top end pro with 1TB SSD and 16gb ram(is this upgradable at a later date) this laptop has an intel processor and costs £1999 Or the Mid-tier M1 based Pro customised with a 1TB SSD and 16gb Ram (again not sure if this is upgradable) at a cost of £1899 (this would take the sting out of the inevitable Apple care/usb adaptors I’d need to buy) What do you guys reckon?
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Nov 16, 2020 12:08
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Gaz2k21 posted:My good old iMac 27” is not compatible with Big Sur apparently, this is a shame but I’ve been thinking about changing to a MacBook Pro but looking at the Apple store I’m a bit confused as to what to go for... what do you need a mac to do? like, what will you be using it for? regardless since you seem set for the moment i'd at least wait until reviews (like, here and on reddit, maybe on anand if you want chiptech, other stuff is pretty meh) of the new units come out before making any kind of decision.
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Nov 16, 2020 12:33
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mediaphage posted:what do you need a mac to do? like, what will you be using it for? At the moment I use it for video editing (nothing over HD.......yet mostly wrestling stuff as I wrestle for a local promotion we’ve just started a streaming service though so a quality jump is inevitable) photoshop, music editing etc. then general web browsing etc the reason I’m switching to a laptop is that I get a lot of long boring work shifts that I could use to get video work done etc It also acts as my plex server but I’m planning on picking up a cheap desktop to do that with
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Nov 16, 2020 12:47
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busfahrer posted:If I buy an Intel-based MBP13 right now, will it come with Big Sur? No. Each model Mac comes with the OS that was there when they were released, they don't install a newer OS until they come out with the next model/update.
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Nov 16, 2020 14:00
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cowofwar posted:I thought the issue was that geek bench scores integrate power consumption so great if you have a restricted thermal envelope but not as useful for assessing top performance in power or thermally unrestrained applications. Geekbench scores don't integrate power consumption, they're just performance scores. In fact, based on John Poole's public statements, GB is designed to complete test runs quickly, and one reason for it is to avoid stressing (and therefore testing) your computer's cooling system. This doesn't mean geekbench scores are useless for comparisons between Apple and Intel CPUs. After all, it measures thermally unconstrained performance in both cases, and it's not like Intel's Turbo is known for keeping clocks the same regardless of active core count or time at full load. Just the opposite, it's very aggressive about running super fast in short bursts, especially on low power platforms. There's a little bit of data out there which used Geekbench as the performance metric in some interesting performance per watt measurements. Nuvia is a startup founded by a bunch of ex-Apple people (the CEO is Apple's former lead CPU architect). They're working on ARM server CPUs. Since they're trying to hit perf/W metrics similar to (or better than) Apple's cores, and since they felt GB5 is actually a fairly decent benchmark which correlates well with industry stalwarts SPEC2006 and SPEC2017 while being easier to run on a variety of platforms, they did some lab testing to measure CPU power while running single-thread GB5: https://nuviainc.com/blog/performancedeliveredanewway They did this months ago, so they had no A14 or M1 samples available to test, but I feel that the second chart (GB5 Performance Per Watt) should still be very informative to certain irrationally skeptical people (not you, cowofwar) posting ITT. Both of Apple's CPU cores (A13 and A12) hit their peak performance at just over 4 watts. Intel Sunny Cove needs almost 16W for about the same peak performance as A13. What's made possible by such a massive perf/W advantage? Well, one obvious thing is that you don't have to back far off peak performance during sustained multi-thread loads. Or at all. For example, the tested Sunny Cove is a 4-core 28W TDP chip. I'll leave it up to the reader to do the math on how many of each type of core could run at peak performance without breaking a 28W budget...
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Nov 16, 2020 14:05
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MeruFM posted:Is Geekbench not a good general look at processor speed? Just looking at the workloads, they seem pretty reasonable for what people do. This is about Geekbench 3.0, I don't know what has changed recently: Linus Torvalds posted:Geekbench is SH*T. Although, if the new chips aren't noticeably faster than the current Intel lineup in Photoshop, iMovie, Safari, Xcode...Apple wouldn't have switched. We'll find out in the next week or two if they are "2.8x faster" in everything or just a couple things.
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Nov 16, 2020 14:19
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Even if they were the same speed as Intel, *Apple* has reason to switch to in house over buying expensive chips from a third party.
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Nov 16, 2020 14:34
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Guessing they need to put push a looot of juice into the core to get it to 3.8 (?) ghz. Could it be that even single core it might not be practical to sustain that for more than a short burst with any [reasonable] cooling solution?
Threadkiller Dog fucked around with this message at 15:14 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 14:50
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Bob Morales posted:No. Even if it had Big Sur today, you could reformat and load whatever OS was supported on that Mac when it was first released. All currently shipping Intel macs support 10.15, and some still support Mojave (iMac Pro? Heh).
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Nov 16, 2020 15:19
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Mu Zeta posted:What attempts? They just released some bullshit without any confidence. Oh here's a lovely surface book with a weird version of windows that isn't compatible with anything. You might like it and this product will totally exist a year from now. They've made 2 attempts... The first one was known as "Windows RT". Based on Windows 8, it was locked to applications digitally signed by MS and had zero ability to run x86 code. Only apps from the then new Microsoft Store could be run. It was a complete market failure, mostly due to the locked down nature of of it, which is very un-Windows like. I think there was also some consumer confusion thrown in, because it looked like Windows, but couldn't run most Windows apps. The second attempt is Windows 10 compiled for ARM. It is not locked down or restricted like RT was. You can run any app, and it has the ability to execute 32-bit x86 code via an emulation layer. (but not 64-bit yet) So far it hasn't been a big success though. The only hardware available right now is the relatively expensive Surface Pro X. Developers haven't really taken to making ARM native Windows apps yet. x86 emulation is quite slow... I seen it likened to using a PC with a older Intel ATOM processor.
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Nov 16, 2020 16:58
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stevewm posted:The second attempt is Windows 10 compiled for ARM. It is not locked down or restricted like RT was. You can run any app, and it has the ability to execute 32-bit x86 code via an emulation layer. (but not 64-bit yet) So far it hasn't been a big success though. The only hardware available right now is the relatively expensive Surface Pro X. Developers haven't really taken to making ARM native Windows apps yet. x86 emulation is quite slow... I seen it likened to using a PC with a older Intel ATOM processor. Part of it is that Apple is the only company that makes Macs, and they will likely eventually stop making Intel builds. Microsoft will never stop making Intel builds of Windows, plus every PC maker in the world will still pump out Intel-based PC's.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:03
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I imagine Obra Dinn will prolly play fine on Rosetta 2
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Nov 16, 2020 17:10
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Threadkiller Dog posted:Guessing they need to put push a looot of juice into the core to get it to 3.8 (?) ghz. Could it be that even single core it might not be practical to sustain that for more than a short burst with any [reasonable] cooling solution? the gb screenshots show the m1 at 3.2ghz max power consumption is the same as outgoing intel chips, with tons of efficiency wizardry to get longer battery life the mba has a tdp of 10w and with passive cooling will just throttle and reduce performance sooner if you're doing stuff like rendering 4k video for hours. the mbp and mini have active cooling so can chug away on more demanding stuff for longer, thus guarantee consistent performance. stevewm posted:They've made 2 attempts... yep. apple's probably been teeing this up for years, probably as far back as 2009 when os x 10.6 introduced grand central dispatch and more recently with metal, both unified libraries to help manage compute power. microsoft is just dumb to not have thought of a gradual introduction or convergence of platforms. they rushed out something to say "hey look at this thing we made", while apple's ethos is "here's how you can use this thing we made". it helps that apple also insists on owning the value chain - not just for financial reasons but also to control the end result of its products and user experience.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:13
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Did Apple send out review units, or should we just be expecting a lot of rushed hot takes tomorrow as people scramble to run benchmarks and see what's broken?
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Nov 16, 2020 17:21
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Hello Spaceman posted:the gb screenshots show the m1 at 3.2ghz Yeah sorry i was unclear. The total power/heat output over time should be no problem at all. Rather I was curious if getting heat out of the die to the cooling solution could be an issue causing single core to throttle, assuming it does ofc. AMD certainly has this heat issue at 7nm and i imagine things just get dicier at even smaller nodes.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:23
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Inept posted:Did Apple send out review units, or should we just be expecting a lot of rushed hot takes tomorrow as people scramble to run benchmarks and see what's broken? probably both, they’ve been much more open with review units in the past few years than they used to be
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Nov 16, 2020 17:23
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Inept posted:Did Apple send out review units, or should we just be expecting a lot of rushed hot takes tomorrow as people scramble to run benchmarks and see what's broken? If it's anything like the 2020 Intel Air reviews there will be one lovely video where some guy runs the Air at 100% full tilt and then complaints that it throttles and then 7 other reviewers will say the same thing with no evidence.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:39
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I’m weirdly excited about a Mac that can run iOS apps. There are a lot of apps that just aren’t as good on desktop that are great on mobile. Having a little window on the left of your screen that’s running Instagram or something would be nice.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:39
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jokes posted:I’m weirdly excited about a Mac that can run iOS apps. There are a lot of apps that just aren’t as good on desktop that are great on mobile. Having a little window on the left of your screen that’s running Instagram or something would be nice. *cries in ipad*
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Nov 16, 2020 17:50
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Lol I didn’t realize that, in a way, macOS is getting native Instagram before iPads lmfao
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Nov 16, 2020 17:51
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Bob Morales posted:Part of it is that Apple is the only company that makes Macs, and they will likely eventually stop making Intel builds. Microsoft has never really pushed developers in any single direction. They just kinda release a product and say do with it what you will. There is no real incentive right now for manufacturers to make ARM based Windows hardware, and thus no incentive for developers to support it. The bulk of consumers also don't care or don't know what ARM is. If a device says it runs Windows, the expectation will be that it runs Windows apps and runs them well. If it can't do this, it will be forever in a niche corner of the market.
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Nov 16, 2020 17:58
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Hello Spaceman posted:
Windows has had the baked in ability to be multi-platform since the introduction of Windows NT. And it has been on many platforms like DEC Alpha, MIPS, Itainium, etc... in the past. They have just never come up with any real incentives to use one platform over another. So it's left up to the market to decide. And the market always chooses the status quo.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:04
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FCKGW posted:If it's anything like the 2020 Intel Air reviews there will be one lovely video where some guy runs the Air at 100% full tilt and then complaints that it throttles and then 7 other reviewers will say the same thing with no evidence. Max Tech is so terrible. I'm not sure he even understands there are hard wattage limits for sustained use.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:09
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stevewm posted:Microsoft has never really pushed developers in any single direction. They just kinda release a product and say do with it what you will. There is no real incentive right now for manufacturers to make ARM based Windows hardware, and thus no incentive for developers to support it. The bulk of consumers also don't care or don't know what ARM is. If a device says it runs Windows, the expectation will be that it runs Windows apps and runs them well. If it can't do this, it will be forever in a niche corner of the market. I think it’s worth thinking a few years out. If by 2024-2025 Apple has a pattern of releasing really well-benchmarking notebooks that are thin and light and also get 15-20+ hours of battery and the Windows builders are still shipping computers in line with what’s normal today then MS, etc might feel a pressure to get a class of Windows notebooks in line. I think they/we have probably 4-5 years to go before that situation starts to make itself really apparent. If in 4-5 years Apple Silicon winds up looking more like a financial benefit to Apple than any benefit to us as users (doubtful if apple’s bullishness means anything and if those benchmarks are real) then I could see Windows notebooks sticking exclusively to x86. Regardless I think x86 is going to stick around for the long haul outside of Apple World. But if new MacBooks wind up being close to as good as Apple wants us to think then there will be pressure in the PC Space to have a class of products that compete. trilobite terror fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Nov 16, 2020 |
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Nov 16, 2020 18:23
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stevewm posted:Microsoft has never really pushed developers in any single direction. They just kinda release a product and say do with it what you will. There is no real incentive right now for manufacturers to make ARM based Windows hardware, and thus no incentive for developers to support it. The bulk of consumers also don't care or don't know what ARM is. If a device says it runs Windows, the expectation will be that it runs Windows apps and runs them well. If it can't do this, it will be forever in a niche corner of the market. There's a lot of factors coming together here to maximize the chance of a successful transition, none of which Microsoft had in place. 1. There's a clear performance benefit 2. There's a clear power benefit 3. There's possibly a performance benefit even running non-native 4. There's a lot of native software already available 5. Apple has put significant effort into providing developers with tools for the transition 6. Apple has been working behind the scenes with key productivity software providers to make sure they're ready 7. Apple has successfully convinced everyone it's happening whether they like it or not and there's no going back If any one of those factors wasn't in place - or at least in a position to be well sorted out by the time the pro product lines make the jump - an ARM mac likely would've been treated like a sideshow too.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:38
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Ok Comboomer posted:I think it’s worth thinking a few years out. If by 2024-2025 Apple has a pattern of releasing really well-benchmarking notebooks that are thin and light and also get 15-20+ hours of battery and the Windows builders are still shipping computers in line with what’s normal today then MS, etc might feel a pressure to get a class of Windows notebooks in line. that's pretty much my take, too. it does make me wonder if in a case like that where they (MS) could get dev support, whether it would lead to another attempt to enter the mobile phone market with their own os
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Nov 16, 2020 18:39
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mediaphage posted:that's pretty much my take, too. i doubt MS could ever successfully return to the phone space, although stranger things have happened. I'm curious to see what happens if/when "windows on ARM, no really this time" lands. Will the android SOCs of 6-7 years in the future be able to run windows? Will we see a renaissance of <$700 PCs built with ARM? How does nvidia play into this? Are they going to push ARM in the Apple Silicon/PC direction? Might they become a windows CPU vendor?
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Nov 16, 2020 18:55
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Samsung will one day make a Galaxy device that is an Android phone portably and becomes a Windows PC-not Tizen, not Android Desktop, not Chrome--when docked. It's probably gonna be trash, but it will happen. Mark my words.
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Nov 16, 2020 18:59
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Ok Comboomer posted:i doubt MS could ever successfully return to the phone space, although stranger things have happened. I mean, the biggest reason they failed this most recent time was a lack of good software imo. If they successfully managed a switch to arm for desktop windows and accumulated a wealth of software for that platform then a potential future push would be that much likelier to stick. Sort of the reverse of what apple is doing by bringing mobile apps to their desktop platform (which has, for the most part, a terrible app store, it's just mattered less because open installations and the internet). I think nvidia will go wherever the money is. I don't mean that as a criticism just that if they see potential to offer a full-on nvidia pc powered by windows, they'll do it. Otherwise i think they're probably more concerned by putting their stuff everywhere else - cars, smart tvs and tv boxes, video games, phones, etc. That fxtec pro1 phone with the keyboard is supposedly getting a win10 on arm port for it at some point, but that's still vaporware.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:00
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Developers won't write apps for a phone without a userbase, and a userbase won't switch to a phone without any apps.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:01
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mediaphage posted:I think nvidia will go wherever the money is. I don't mean that as a criticism just that if they see potential to offer a full-on nvidia pc powered by windows, they'll do it. Otherwise i think they're probably more concerned by putting their stuff everywhere else - cars, smart tvs and tv boxes, video games, phones, etc. That's fair. I brought them up because they're in the unique position of having just bought ARM, but theoretically any ARM CPU maker could be there for all that most lack the ability to compete with Apple and the A/M series.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:11
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Bob Morales posted:Developers won't write apps for a lap without a userbase, and a userbase won't switch to a lap without any apps, and manufacturers won't produce a laptop without a compatible OS, and OS vendors won't write an OS for hardware that doesn't exist. The only reason Apple can make this work is because the produce both the hardware and the software. Microsoft would have to (again) write Windows-on-ARM on spec and hope that manufacturers will produce ARM devices, and that developers won't just ignore it, whereas Apple can just strongarm everyone. I'm not saying it's impossible that the market will shift such that MS/Intel/Clevo are all on the same page, but I am going to stand over here eyeing the suggestion dismissively.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:16
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jokes posted:I’m weirdly excited about a Mac that can run iOS apps. There are a lot of apps that just aren’t as good on desktop that are great on mobile. Having a little window on the left of your screen that’s running Instagram or something would be nice. Instagram has already opted out of letting their app run on Macs.
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Nov 16, 2020 19:33
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