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Arsenic Lupin posted:Nope. I suspect I'm not surviving long enough. There isn't really any "surviving long enough" (ignoring waveclear) in this game, with the possible exception of the alternate showoff way to handle the 5-minute wave on stage 5. There are a few waves that are assholes, and a few more that are assholes for particular builds, but by and large they tend to come back a couple minutes after (in the builds case, usually combined in a sort of "you'd better have AoE or you're just dodging" → "you'd better have single target or you're just dodging" → "here's a breather" → "lol you'd better have both or you die" way.) "Survivors" is in the name, but there is no evade-for-30-minutes wincon, only surviving atop a pile of gems. And since you mentioned garlic—this holds for all self-target AoEs, but garlic is the most reliable/lowest damage of them, while the others have some combo of downtime, blind spots, or expensive builds before they truly kick in that in turn gives you mechanical agency to juggle waves so that they only reach you when and where the weapon's on—that means that taking it "to be safe" is entirely a trap option. When you take garlic you shouldn't be taking it a few minutes in to have a little bit of leeway when the pressure builds, because it can never stand up to an actual press, even if enemies were completely immobile the physics interactions of new spawns alone would shove enemies at you faster than its low damage/slow tick rate could handle. You should be taking it so in the first few minutes where 1-2 ticks kills any target, you can run directly into them to accelerate other weapons for when the garlic stops doing enough damage to keep up with spawns. E: And yeah, buy your meta-upgrades, and especially when you're at a deadend like this remember that because there isn't infinite growth in the game, the growth upgrades (Growth for in-run success, Greed to speed up getting more meta, even Curse for more enemies for more EXP with the caveat that you'll want to reset it back down if it pushes early enemy HP over the 1-hit/2-hit breakpoints you can reach) should be focused before raw stat boosts, because until you're dying with maxed-out items in every slot, more levels is more important than more value from those levels. Mandoric fucked around with this message at 18:53 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 18:46
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The flip side of this is that evolved bible is still the best overall weapon in the game
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Jun 28, 2022 18:49
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Hmm. I've never gotten enough matching drops to up a weapon to level 8. Okay so I just did a run to 11 minutes on Forest with Clerci to see if I could offer any more specific advice. Keep in mind I have upgrades you don't have so your mileage may vary but I tried to account for that. I think your problem is you're trying too hard to build in a way that negates incoming damage; defensive builds in this game are largely worthless, or at least they are outside of a couple of very specific combinations. Starting with Santa Water, I quickly grabbed Garlic (I personally try to avoid Garlic these days but grabbed it because it makes life easier for new players). My next grab was Knife; having a directional ranged attack you can control is important to put in the mix too, you can't use all AoE auras. There are usually some waves that have beefier, slower enemies and being able to gently caress that guy in particular is important. Between minutes 1 and 5, I level my weapons, eventually grabbed Bracer, Candelabrador, and Tome. This isn't completely optimal because Bracer doesn't really synergize with Garlic but sometimes you have to take what you can get. By the time I reached minute 10, I had a full inventory; Santa Water, Garlic, Knife, Axe, Wand, and Fire Wand; and Bracer, Candelabrador, Tome, Attractorb, Spinich, Pummarola. Again, not optimal but a simple build; and every one of these weapons can now potentially evolve. Early on focusing on 3-4 weapons you can evolve is probably fine, because sometimes the RNG is just not with you, but the game seems to be more likely to offer you passives that do pair with the weapons you've already aquired. Before the wave at minute 11 I managed to upgrade knife, which is a huge help. Most of the skeletons in this wave just melted from knife, so I was able to cut a hole and just walk through them rather than rely on AoE.
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Jun 28, 2022 18:50
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20mtd I don't see how anything is viable from the getgo other than fire-all-ammo character with batgun or maybe grenades with the high HP character or phantom summoner. With controller, that is. Idk why they'd cripple aim speed on controllers.
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Jun 28, 2022 19:08
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Defense items: Help you live longer Offense items: Help you live longer by killing the things that kill you
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Jun 28, 2022 19:10
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Third World Reagan posted:Defense items: Help you live longer 
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Jun 28, 2022 20:03
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Mescal posted:20mtd I don't see how anything is viable from the getgo other than fire-all-ammo character with batgun or maybe grenades with the high HP character or phantom summoner. With controller, that is. Idk why they'd cripple aim speed on controllers.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:13
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Anybody got a tip for surviving the skeleton wave at 11:00? I've been mostly playing Clerici or Imelda; in both cases, taking Garlic whenever I can (duh) and trying to get Clerici as much damage as I can. I've never gotten her amped enough to survive the mass of skeletons. I turned off all my upgrades (apart from rerolls etc so I didn't end up forced to take anything you don't have) and spun up Imelda. Here's what I beat the skeleton wave with:  Key components: Garlic - kills bats, lets you farm them for XP Blue wand (her starter) and Cross - these target the nearest enemy, which combos with the Garlic. The weeny guys will die to the garlic and the tough guys will forge ahead and get bounced back. Whip and Book - Great clearers Empty Tome - faster cooldown means more bullets Duplicator - more bullets Spinach - one hit kills best kills Order of priority: The first level of Empty Tome First level of Duplicator First level of Garlic First level of the other weapons listed First level of Spinach Other levels of Empty Tome and Duplicator Levels of Book, Wand, or Cross that increase amount OR area increasing levels of garlic Other levels of weapons Spinach The key is to keep your local area as clear as possible with garlic, whip, and book while playing keepaway with the stubborn guys using your homing bullets. The skeletons aren't actually very tough so quantity > quality when it comes to bullets. Hitting five guys with five bullets is worth way more than hitting one guy for five times the damage. (I deliberately made some non-optimal picks to simulate bad rolls, the game insisted on throwing unrealistically frequent offerings of Empty Tome at me) Splicer fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 20:14
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Shotgun+highHP character/reroll character was my go to, did they nerf the shotty? Or is it just the aim speed on controller making it unplayable? i hope they're not nerfing anything, that's the last thing this game needs. but yeah, it's just aim speed on controller. it's so weird i want to assume it was somehow a mistake.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:21
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I tried Holocure but every character's starting weapon is a huge pain in the rear end to aim and even the strafe button doesn't help me. Is that just... how it is?
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Jun 28, 2022 20:23
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Shotgun+highHP character/reroll character was my go to, did they nerf the shotty? Or is it just the aim speed on controller making it unplayable? One of the funniest runs I have done so far was a Diamond + Shotgun build where i abused hp regen runes and upgrades and got both her “get permanent boosts when you take damage” and “get permanent boosts when you heal” chest perks. Just strategically taking a header into enemies then zooming off even stronger than before. So yeah shotgun is fine. You could probably go full bullet/gun power and not worry about element but the fire damage health restore is basically made for the build so at that point i went in on frost too for Frostfire as well.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:28
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DACK FAYDEN posted:There's at least one formula that rounds differently somewhere, because I managed to have bullets do 24 and "bullet damage" flying knife do 25 simultaneously. I don't really care but that's just sloppy you know? Yip, but I may be spending inappropriately. Currently I'm at 2782 gold, with 1 Magnet, 2 Might, 1 Recovery, 1 Max Health, 1 Duration, 2 Area. What should I be doing better at a low level.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:29
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Mendrian posted:Okay so I just did a run to 11 minutes on Forest with Clerci to see if I could offer any more specific advice. Keep in mind I have upgrades you don't have so your mileage may vary but I tried to account for that. That was very VERY helpful, thank you. What is your normal walking pattern? I'm finding knife isn't much good because it requires me to point straight at a pack of enemies.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:51
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Knife is great because it lets you just walk into a group of enemies, clear a path, and pick up all the xp. Also concentrated boss damage. Of course you need AOE damage too, but almost all other weapons are AOE so that's rarely a problem.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Yip, but I may be spending inappropriately. Currently I'm at 2782 gold, with 1 Magnet, 2 Might, 1 Recovery, 1 Max Health, 1 Duration, 2 Area. What should I be doing better at a low level. Max amount and area before anything else.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Yip, but I may be spending inappropriately. Currently I'm at 2782 gold, with 1 Magnet, 2 Might, 1 Recovery, 1 Max Health, 1 Duration, 2 Area. What should I be doing better at a low level. Keep in mind that you can refund all your upgrades at any time for no penalty. There's no downside to refunding just to see if you can, for example, now afford +1 count.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:00
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DACK FAYDEN posted:I tried Holocure but every character's starting weapon is a huge pain in the rear end to aim and even the strafe button doesn't help me. Is that just... how it is? The starter weapons are worthless stopgaps until you can get enough real weapons online or an evolution going, don't waste any upgrades on them.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:44
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Ardryn posted:The starter weapons are worthless stopgaps until you can get enough real weapons online or an evolution going, don't waste any upgrades on them.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:49
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20mtd i was this close to a bat dragon build where everything synergized with itself basically and would steamroll the second half, but the tradeoffs getting there led to my ignoble death. bats are bullet and summon... what's the math? what happens when you get plus summon damage and minus bullet damage? magnetism isn't so good. the starting magnetism is high, and the maximized magnetism isn't great. move speed is good until you get surrounded. the only great combos i see so far are abby plus a big fast firing magazine plus lightning, and grenade launcher with light/heavy weaponry. i could see xbow being good with fan fire and shatter, but i tried it and it didn't do much.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:55
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Ardryn posted:The starter weapons are worthless stopgaps until you can get enough real weapons online or an evolution going, don't waste any upgrades on them. The starter weapons in Holocure vary wildly depending on the character. Some of them (Ina) are bad, some of them (Mumei) are extremely good and should not be overlooked
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Jun 28, 2022 21:56
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Ardryn posted:The starter weapons are worthless stopgaps until you can get enough real weapons online or an evolution going, don't waste any upgrades on them. nah, somewhat. Mumei's is strong enough to basically use on its own. And there's others where the characters gimmick/special is built around the starter weapon, like Kronii, Callie and Ame
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Jun 28, 2022 22:06
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Third World Reagan posted:20MTD has bad math and rounding down issues. That's not bad math, it's just multiplicative. 1.1 * 1.25 * 0.9 = 1.2375
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Jun 28, 2022 22:06
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Mescal posted:bats are bullet and summon... what's the math? what happens when you get plus summon damage and minus bullet damage? broadly it works less well than you think because you tend to have both pumped up, so you're going from like 2*2=4 to 2.5*1.5=3.75
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Jun 28, 2022 22:06
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Ardryn posted:The starter weapons are worthless stopgaps until you can get enough real weapons online or an evolution going, don't waste any upgrades on them. What, even Santa Water?
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Jun 28, 2022 22:20
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Arsenic Lupin posted:What, even Santa Water? no talking about the holocure game with those posts, not vampire survivors. thread's kind of become a catch-all for the 'reverse bullethell roguelike' genre that VS spawned e; oh, but for the record, laurel on its own is trash garbage. Don't take it. Laurel can get an evolution with other items that you'll unlock much later in the meta progression. That evolution is god-like... but you can't get it yet, and won't for a while. Until then, don't touch the grass. Mazerunner fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 22:22
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Arsenic Lupin posted:That was very VERY helpful, thank you. What is your normal walking pattern? I'm finding knife isn't much good because it requires me to point straight at a pack of enemies. As another poster said, you basically just walk into the enemies and clear a path. You're not going to clear every enemy anyway so you just need to clear enough to be able to move. The 11 minute wave is fairly light, so what you'll probably do is clear a hole, walk through it, turn around, and repeat. Later waves don't let up and you probably have to keep moving but by that point you should have better combos and may not have to move around as much. Santa Water is good in combination with other things or when it evolves but on its own it's just difficult to control and you can't even really stand in the little puddles of fire because they dissipate so fast. One of the nice things about the build I threw up there is that it improves damage, attack speed, cooldown, and area, so basically all of the most important offensive stats. However, paradoxically, Might is probably the least important of the four. Might is one of those weird things that matters until it doesn't; basically it only matters if you can get an enemy from '2+ hits to kill' down to '1 hit to kill'; any Might up that point helps only in pursuit in that goal, and any might in excess of it is wasted. Cooldown and Area are probably the two most important stats before you have any unlockables, with Might and Speed being just sort of nice to have beyond that. As you get unlockables, you don't need these things quite so much and can change up your builds a little. Again one of the things about this game is adapting to what the game chooses to give you, rather than gunning for a specific build that does everything. Clerici is good but starts with a weapon that doesn't really solve your AoE problems and doesn't really do direct damage, so you're already operating at a slight disadvantage. Gennaro or Imelda are probably easier starting characters, but this is softer advice because mostly you just want to do what feels fun with a character, generally the starting weapons are unimportant after the first 5 minutes. EDIT: To put it in perspective, by the 15 minute mark I was just wandering around the map at will. I was trying to see how much damage I could get out of Soul Eater (evolved Garlic); Soul Eater gets stronger the more you heal but if you have full health it won't grow. I was trying to get things to hit me and I just couldn't take any damage unless I found a creature immune to knockback. I could just do whatever I wanted at that point. I foolishly left Arcana on for this experiment and had gotten a useful one by that point despite trying not to, so that accounts for that success a little. Mendrian fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 22:24
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Mescal posted:20mtd Honestly my complaint with the game is the lack of general variety in upgrades (and maybe some extra runes would help); outside of the crossbow and maybe pistols all of the weapons are great and all of the characters have at least one stupid great build they can take as you get runes/flexibility. Crossbow IMO is bad because it's slow, clunky, and the base weapon damage is pretty poor which limits a lot of the synergy (summoned weapons, Hina, Abby). Pistols are just kinda there, you can kinda crowbar them into any run but they're not going to be great compared to anything more specialized. Shana: Good catchall fuckaround character can go into any build you want; her unique accessory gives huge speed type bonuses, she can get a 40% boost to exp, and Specialize can have some hilarious effects based on which upgrade you triple. Diamond: Really shines when you have runes to give you extra healing type options; her buff-on-damage and buff-on-heal upgrades work really well with the shotgun in particular since you can focus even more on +projectiles, +penetration, assassinate and elemental (pyro for more heals, plus ice and/or lightning). Scarlett/Spark: Really both of them are going for high RoF weaponry and elemental builds and not caring about bullet damage, so SMGs, flame cannon, maybe batgun or pistol for variety. Lilith: Heavy in summon build, batgun is obvious but you could also grenade launcher for massive base weapon damage and lean on the summoned weapon upgrades. Abby: Her special is great obviously, especially when you realize A) she moves normal speed when spinning, and B) if you get the upgrade that fires a shot behind where you're aiming that still functions when she's spinning, so you can actually focus fire as well as spraying stuff everywhere. Grenades if you want to be spicy, or a high RoF weapon and elemental build both work. Hina: Completely loving busted with grenades. Shadow clone takes both +bullet and +summon bonuses, so lean hard on everything that increases damage, summon speed, and don't worry about upgrades to things like reload time or clip size. Magic Lens has a bonus here in that if you're standing near your clone her attacks dramatically increase in size, up to like 1/3 the screen. By midrun you'll have an uber clone that will hit for thousands and a bunch of extra summon weapons and minions doing their own thing.
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Jun 28, 2022 22:48
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Well I've picked up all these drat games after 100% VS and unfortunately I'm just not digging the style of the others like VS. Holocure, which is free, is probably my favorite of the others and I'm not a fan of the weapon balance. The other two, Nomad Survivors and 20MTD, are confusing AF and I don't know how anyone could even begin to accomplish anything in them without doing extensive online research first. Like Nomad Survivors doesn't even have a limit to how many items you can pick up, so you can just convolute the gently caress out of yourself? Why? I also really don't like the minimalist and non-communicative UI in 20MTD. VS definitely has the best "pick up and play" vibe, IMO. And literally every single weapon is useful and can carry you to the end game under the right circumstances. I just don't feel that's remotely true for any of the other games.
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Jun 28, 2022 22:48
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Tortolia posted:Honestly my complaint with the game is the lack of general variety in upgrades (and maybe some extra runes would help); outside of the crossbow and maybe pistols all of the weapons are great and all of the characters have at least one stupid great build they can take as you get runes/flexibility. Crossbow IMO is bad because it's slow, clunky, and the base weapon damage is pretty poor which limits a lot of the synergy (summoned weapons, Hina, Abby). Pistols are just kinda there, you can kinda crowbar them into any run but they're not going to be great compared to anything more specialized. Thanks for the tip on hina, I hadn't tried her like that and had been trying to make xbow work with her Frankly I just can't get crossbow to work at all on darkness 15. The second boss attacks so often that if I gear up to beat it, which I can do reliably, I die to the waves of normal enemies because I don't have enough aoe damage. It's really frustrating
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Jun 28, 2022 22:52
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Alright did another test run. I disabled all of my unlocks, turned off Arcana and ran on normal (not Hyper) mode. I forgot how stupid Forest is for new players. Honest to god just move on to Library as soon as the game allows you to. The main problem with Forest is that it just isn't balanced properly for brand new players. You can do it but it's just really rough without unlocks. It has several waves of fewer, beefier enemies (green zombies, large bats, werewolves) that slow down your XP gain to a crawl even if you can kill them in a timely fashion (and you probably can't). Library by contrast has a steady stream of weak enemies that slowly ramp up, and only approaches you from two directions, making more weapons useful. It does have the one exploding ghost at the very start of the level that will probably eat half of your health, but the next several minutes are very easy. If any of you have forgotten how stupid Forest is with nothing unlocked I recommend trying it again. It's a neat challenge. Though I wouldn't play without Hyper unless you're really feeling nostalgic.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:04
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Jelly posted:Well I've picked up all these drat games after 100% VS and unfortunately I'm just not digging the style of the others like VS. Nomad Survivors is interesting because it has a lot more complex mechanics than VS, but it feels way worse to play. I put a few hours into it and got a couple wins, unlocked a bunch of characters, but it's just not as satisfying. Like you say, the way you can just get as many weapons and upgrades as you want is not as satisfying. You're way more limited in the number of levels you get, so you're never going to actually get all the weapons, and if you pick up too many instead of rerolling every level until you get an upgrade, you're going to lose. Also, it's just not as fun. Everything feels really weightless, it's super aggressive about combining XP gems so you don't get that satisfaction of vacuuming up hundreds of them, and dangerous boss attacks always get lost in the mass of enemies running around, so you tend to die out of nowhere while fighting them.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:13
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Holy poo poo, I played Gennaro and put most of my points into varied weapons and carefully chosen passives and I made it past 11:00. YAAAY! (and died at 12, but progress.)
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Jun 28, 2022 23:17
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Jelly posted:Well I've picked up all these drat games after 100% VS and unfortunately I'm just not digging the style of the others like VS. Yeah I gotta agree with this 100%. But I've still had some enjoyment from the others, and helped support their devs, so no harm no foul in my book.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:26
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K8.0 posted:That's not bad math, it's just multiplicative. 1.1 * 1.25 * 0.9 = 1.2375 Yes bad math If it doesn't come out to 25% then your math is wrong and bad and dumb
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Jun 28, 2022 23:27
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Scruffpuff posted:Yeah I gotta agree with this 100%. But I've still had some enjoyment from the others, and helped support their devs, so no harm no foul in my book.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:29
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Splicer posted:
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Jun 28, 2022 23:31
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Pretty sure I haven't unlocked either of those; where are they? Empty Tome is straightforward and easily the best passive in the game -> hold 6 weapons. They don't need to be leveled at all you just need to have six weapons at once Duplicator is the second best but is a little more spoilery IMO and no I don't have a rational reason why I feel that way -> getting magic wand to level 7 Splicer fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Jun 28, 2022 |
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Jun 28, 2022 23:39
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IMO the most important thing to learn is to get a few weapons and jack the hell out of one so you have it at level 8 along with it's evo requirement so you can evo it right away when you kill the 10 minute boss. The difference between having an evolution and not at 11 minutes is very, very big, it's how I made my first breakthrough past 11 minutes.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:51
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Are the unevolvable starter weapons like the bone worthwhile? I haven't had a chance to max them out, but seems like any evolved weapon would be better.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:54
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The bone's problem is it needs a critical mass of things around you. Without that it is kinda bad. So you need more enemies, a way to drill into them, or just be late game. But once that happens, the bone is great.
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Jun 28, 2022 23:58
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