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Dawgstar posted:I am oddly nostalgic for the Time of Judgement. Not for the books themselves, really, because only one I feel 100 percent understood the assignment (Apocalypse) but leading up to it they had 'news tickers' of events and it was great fun trying to figure out what it meant and what game it was referring to because it would be like somebody talking about something on Shreck.net or a report about a farm overrun by 'horrible misshapen creatures.' plus monsters
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Jul 19, 2023 23:03
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Pakxos posted:Is there an existing list of the white wolf catalog out that you are working off of? Wikipedia has a couple but I didn't see any master lists come up on google. I used the White Wolf fan wiki's listing of game books/supplements for each gameline and then made a spreadsheet for each game that lists out each book in order of publication. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Portal:World_of_Darkness under "Publication" for each portal it has the lists I've used. Which has been super handy for figuring out which stuff falls into 1e or 2e because I've been trying to keep the cut off at "Published after 2e core came out, it's second ed". Which is really only important to know because some of the tribe/clan books came out before/after the 2e cores released. joylessdivision fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 19, 2023 |
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Jul 19, 2023 23:09
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Dawgstar posted:I am oddly nostalgic for the Time of Judgement. Not for the books themselves, really, because only one I feel 100 percent understood the assignment (Apocalypse) but leading up to it they had 'news tickers' of events and it was great fun trying to figure out what it meant and what game it was referring to because it would be like somebody talking about something on Shreck.net or a report about a farm overrun by 'horrible misshapen creatures.' *not only did I not need to look that up, I spelled it right, what the gently caress [Edit:] Looking through it again, there’s even a reference to Schere’s Disease, which AFAIK never appeared in a WoD book, but rather the White Wolf magazine. 
AmiYumi fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Jul 20, 2023 |
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Jul 20, 2023 23:16
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AmiYumi posted:This, and the introductory section for Gehenna that laid bare the “here’s what our WoD writer’s bible has to say on various subjects” - which every scenario proceeded to dumpster - were a hell of a lot of fun to see. The ticker especially had some deep cuts, presenting end of the world updates that were also shoutouts to fans of obscure groups / bloodlines / kwannon-jin* / etc Nice. I never actually read Land of Eight Million Dreams but the person who did the quite good Kindred of the East rework on RPG.net is working them at the moment. Maybe he'll get to the Beast Courts next.
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Jul 20, 2023 23:55
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Double post, but worth it. One of the people who was working on the original Werewolf 5E draft before Paradox took it internally and talked about what they had to fight over with the editor. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/werewolf-the-apocalypse-5th-edition-and-the-anti-indigeneity-in-the-gaming-industry.912221/ TL;DR: They wanted to start 5E with Young Brother (W*nd*g*, which is apparently a taboo word?) being slaughtered en masse and make all the Get the Swords of Heimdall, the Nazi sub faction. So!
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Jul 22, 2023 03:29
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Dawgstar posted:TL;DR: They wanted to start 5E with Young Brother (W*nd*g*, which is apparently a taboo word?) being slaughtered en masse and make all the Get the Swords of Heimdall, the Nazi sub faction. So! 
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Jul 22, 2023 03:32
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Karim Muammar was the Editor in Chief for the now dissolved Paradox-White Wolf when the Chechnya debacle happened. It is wild that he was kept around, I thought for sure everyone there was sacked. Edit: The Get/Nazi stuff tracks with how they were talked about in The Heart of the Forest. I've no doubt Muammar was running with Ericsson's setting notes. Free Gratis fucked around with this message at 04:19 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 04:13
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Dawgstar posted:Double post, but worth it. One of the people who was working on the original Werewolf 5E draft before Paradox took it internally and talked about what they had to fight over with the editor. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/werewolf-the-apocalypse-5th-edition-and-the-anti-indigeneity-in-the-gaming-industry.912221/ And from what I know of Werewolf lore this Muammar guy was just plain getting it wrong. There were suggestions of some Siberian connections and distant relatives to the tribe in question, but they were pretty clearly and specifically Native American, even more so than the Uktena. Or at least, more specifically so, since the Uktena encompassed multiple very disparate Native cultures. Not surprised at the gunning for Nazi heat, though
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Jul 22, 2023 04:17
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In fact, the Uktena were a multi-cultural tribe as they adopted most oppressed in America in their shared struggle.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:24
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MonsieurChoc posted:In fact, the Uktena were a multi-cultural tribe as they adopted most oppressed in America in their shared struggle. Unsure how they explain Evan the Whitest Wendigo, though
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Jul 22, 2023 04:25
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Nessus posted:Boy howdy. Yeah, the Siberakh were the connections in question. They were a Russian sub-tribe, sort of, that was a blend between Younger Brother and the Silver Fangs but they never really did anything and I'm not sure why that's a sticking point when as you say the Uktena had all sorts of mistreated minorities under their umbrella. And I stress that not in the metaplot, not anywhere, they never really mattered. They were just there. If you're gonna yeet the baby out with the bathwater (or rather gun down the baby and its entire extended family) they're not a good line to draw for it. Also it is pretty galling I have to imagine to be told 'no, you only get the one Native tribe.' Nessus posted:Unsure how they explain Evan the Whitest Wendigo, though The poster called him 'Steals-the-Past' which was a pretty good burn. I'm pretty sure Evan comes to use from Bill Bridges who was a white dude who very much wanted to be Native. Hand to God, in one of those dedications at the beginning of a WW book he's shouted out as "the most white Native American I know" or something inane like that which nobody should EVER accept as an accolade.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:27
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah, the Siberakh were the connections in question. They were a Russian sub-tribe, sort of, that was a blend between Younger Brother and the Silver Fangs but they never really did anything and I'm not sure why that's a sticking point when as you say the Uktena had all sorts of mistreated minorities under their umbrella. And I stress that not in the metaplot, not anywhere, they never really mattered. They were just there. If you're gonna yeet the baby out with the bathwater (or rather gun down the baby and its entire extended family) they're not a good line to draw for it. Or just like, not bring it up again and if people want to use them, "who cares." Would Garou from Mongolia be that, Glass Walkers, Shadow Lords, or some heretofore undescribed fourth thing? Maybe you can figure that out at your table! Dawgstar posted:The poster called him 'Steals-the-Past' which was a pretty good burn. I'm pretty sure Evan comes to use from Bill Bridges who was a white dude who very much wanted to be Native. Hand to God, in one of those dedications at the beginning of a WW book he's shouted out as "the most white Native American I know" or something inane like that which nobody should EVER accept as an accolade.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:29
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One thing I'm morbidly curious of was whom was the Pretendian who worked on Werewolf stuff. They had a couple people who could fit the bill over the years. Shoutout to the OP for helping to push the bad old terms out, though.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:36
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Dawgstar posted:Double post, but worth it. One of the people who was working on the original Werewolf 5E draft before Paradox took it internally and talked about what they had to fight over with the editor. https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/werewolf-the-apocalypse-5th-edition-and-the-anti-indigeneity-in-the-gaming-industry.912221/ God drat. I would put money on that awful Nazi poo poo coming from Swedradcula because that sounds like exactly the kind of gross poo poo he would have come up with. Just...God drat it WW.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:41
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I appreciate someone in that thread recognizing the importance of Sgt. Rage and his Killing Commandoes.
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Jul 22, 2023 04:50
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Nessus posted:I appreciate someone in that thread recognizing the importance of Sgt. Rage and his Killing Commandoes. Somebody pointed to a Twitter convo with Achilli on how they couldn't find any Tribal Verbs to fit the Get which is... like, really? None at all?
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Jul 22, 2023 05:07
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Jesus christ. See, this is the poo poo that made me dip and turn into a grognard about the setting.
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Jul 22, 2023 05:12
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Loomer posted:Jesus christ. See, this is the poo poo that made me dip and turn into a grognard about the setting. Now imagine how Mark Rein*Hagen feels. 
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Jul 22, 2023 05:20
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Dawgstar posted:Somebody pointed to a Twitter convo with Achilli on how they couldn't find any Tribal Verbs to fit the Get which is... like, really? None at all?  if they weren't that into the Nordic rune stuff.
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Jul 22, 2023 05:26
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Dawgstar posted:TL;DR: They wanted to start 5E with Young Brother (W*nd*g*, which is apparently a taboo word?) being slaughtered en masse and make all the Get the Swords of Heimdall, the Nazi sub faction. So! it's an anthropomorphization of greed, winter, and hunger, and not something to be venerated or idolized, its also rather distinctly an Algonquin thing which has it's own idea of the Taboo of invoking a thing. Uktena is more generalized and the idea of a mythical horned serpent was widespread across several indian tribes across north america even as far south as mexico. It's also not evil, so it being a kind of catch all protector of any and all native tribesman sort of tracks. It's still an appropriative term just not one that you aren't supposed to say too loudly. Kurieg fucked around with this message at 05:39 on Jul 22, 2023 |
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Jul 22, 2023 05:37
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To this day I am astonished that they just didn't go with Thunderbird. Thunderbird is a giant bird in the sky and as best as I can tell from my reading of native American story traditions, Thunderbird loves kicking rear end. e: Too much overlap with the Shadow Lords? Cowardice? The name of the malt liquor?
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Jul 22, 2023 06:16
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Nessus posted:I appreciate someone in that thread recognizing the importance of Sgt. Rage and his Killing Commandoes. ANYWAY, all Germans are Nazis”
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Jul 22, 2023 07:16
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AmiYumi posted:I appreciated the call out of “we want to step away from mapping Tribes to human races and regions, which is why we need to kill off one of the Indigenous ones Honestly if you were doing something in Germany with Werewolf you could definitely make use of Germany's bizarre, ahistorical, but occasionally deeply researched Native American fandom. I think there are multiple cases where crafting techniques were lost in America but were then recovered because some nice old hausfrau learned how to do it on vacation 30 years ago.
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Jul 22, 2023 07:35
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Nessus posted:To this day I am astonished that they just didn't go with Thunderbird. Thunderbird is a giant bird in the sky and as best as I can tell from my reading of native American story traditions, Thunderbird loves kicking rear end. Or International Rescue?
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Jul 22, 2023 08:36
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The Get of Fenris should be about social democracy, rehabilitative justice in lagom amounts, and creative fish recipes. 
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Jul 22, 2023 10:54
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AmiYumi posted:I appreciated the call out of “we want to step away from mapping Tribes to human races and regions, which is why we need to kill off one of the Indigenous ones Somebody pointed out that of the most awful Nazi related things the Get aren't even the worst. In Mage you had the Order of Hermes and Verbena(!), the Technocracy pretty much as a whole and if you're going "Dawgstar, they're not working on a Mage game" I would respond to allow me to show you exhibit Tzimisce and the good Fraulein Doktor Totentanz. Kurieg posted:it's an anthropomorphization of greed, winter, and hunger, and not something to be venerated or idolized, its also rather distinctly an Algonquin thing which has it's own idea of the Taboo of invoking a thing. No, I get all that I'd just never seen it regarded as the word itself being taboo like the Navajo one where they are extremely tired of us trying to turn it into a Native American werewolf.
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Jul 22, 2023 12:26
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Also basically everything going on with Australia is appropriation and gross to varying degrees.
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Jul 22, 2023 13:54
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There is some amount of disagreement among different groups about how taboo the w-monsters is, but at least one Native American group would prefer it not be named, even if others don't mind so much.
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Jul 22, 2023 14:18
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Kurieg posted:Also basically everything going on with Australia is appropriation and gross to varying degrees. Yes, but what about the game?
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Jul 22, 2023 14:24
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I looked into the w thing a few years ago, and I still never found a good source for it, just tumblr posts. I’d be grateful if someone had a citation— I personally don’t need it, since it’s plausible to me that there isn’t one but it’s still true (just only known through word of mouth), but it’d be useful to convince others.
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Jul 22, 2023 14:26
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I was forced to recall the interview from way back when Ericsson talks about how one of the themes of Werewolf was the lure of heroic fascism and found out it's also the same place he talked about wanting a new edition of World of Darkness: Roma Slur and also Charnel Houses of Europe which is one hundred percent not subject matter he should be trusted with.
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Jul 22, 2023 15:53
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Dawgstar posted:I was forced to recall the interview from way back when Ericsson talks about how one of the themes of Werewolf was the lure of heroic fascism and found out it's also the same place he talked about wanting a new edition of World of Darkness: Roma Slur and also Charnel Houses of Europe which is one hundred percent not subject matter he should be trusted with. That's what immediately came to mind when I read "And the Get are Nazis who slaughtered Little Brother" Also I think he wanted to call the new Roma book "Viva Roma" or some such. He at least had enough sense to not want to use the slur for the title which is the only not horribly stupid and racist thing he said. Also Jesus Christ I just realized the Verbena can be read as the "Blood and Soil" group which is not great! Hey remember when dipshit signed off the same interview you remembered with "Blood and Souls"? Can we load him into a rocket and fire it into the deep Umbra?
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Jul 22, 2023 16:18
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joylessdivision posted:Also Jesus Christ I just realized the Verbena can be read as the "Blood and Soil" group which is not great! It gets better. And by 'better' I mean 'terrible.' From the Verbena Revised book: "All we know is that the rune-crafters gathered around a faction called the Iron Circle, which either saw or inspired an interest in an Aryan root culture. It sparked in a Germany battered and defeated after the First World War and ignited a fire that gave rise to one of the most infamous forces in our history: the Nazi Party of the Third Reich." Springtime for Hitler and Verbenaaaaaa...
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Jul 22, 2023 16:33
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Dawgstar posted:It gets better. And by 'better' I mean 'terrible.' From the Verbena Revised book: Gooooooood  it White Wolf.Also now I realize I should probably change Little Brother when it pops up going forward in Apocalypse reviews. And double check all my capitalizations of Indigenous and Native people references in my current and future reviews to make sure I don't gently caress that up.
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Jul 22, 2023 16:36
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joylessdivision posted:Gooooooood Good call. Revisiting the Verbena book made me remember they've never been very good. Never got that Malcolm Sheppard shine on one of their splats.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:05
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A thing in the oWoD was that every faction had a dark side: a group or subfaction or history that was evil. This led to some rather unfortunate things, to put it kindly.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:15
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I don't actually give much of a poo poo about Werewolf, what's the tl;dr of all the points of that post? Reading it on a phone is painful due to formatting, I'm hearing a lot about Paradox wanting to force Nazis back into the game as a playable thing which is hooooooly poo poo wtf levels of bad.
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Jul 22, 2023 17:45
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Fuzz posted:I don't actually give much of a poo poo about Werewolf, what's the tl;dr of all the points of that post? Reading it on a phone is painful due to formatting, I'm hearing a lot about Paradox wanting to force Nazis back into the game as a playable thing which is hooooooly poo poo wtf levels of bad. After they fired martin but before they Brought on Achilli and took Werewolf in house, they left one of Martin's friends in charge of W5 development who was very obviously still using Martin's playbook and was trying to make the Get into Turbo mega Nazis and kill off the W* in the process to show how poo poo'S GOTTEN REAL. Eventually he got let go and things got pulled in house with Paradox but they've still somehow found unrelated rakes to step on, but at that point the author of the post was out of the loop and thus unable to comment.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:00
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Swedish Dracula really was a piece of poo poo and I am glad we're not getting his version of Werewolf where one of the tribes is majorly dominated by the Nazi movement. That said, I don't think it's that bad to have stuff like the old Verbena book going "so, part of this faction supported the Nazis during the 1930s-1940s" as long as it is not written as apologia. WW2 happened, if writers are exploring about what everyone in the World of Darkness was doing at the time some of them are bound to have gotten involved in that mass madness and other reactionary movements.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:07
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Kurieg posted:After they fired martin but before they Brought on Achilli and took Werewolf in house, they left one of Martin's friends in charge of W5 development who was very obviously still using Martin's playbook and was trying to make the Get into Turbo mega Nazis and kill off the W* in the process to show how poo poo'S GOTTEN REAL. Eventually he got let go and things got pulled in house with Paradox but they've still somehow found unrelated rakes to step on, but at that point the author of the post was out of the loop and thus unable to comment. And also generally dealing with said manager being a dickhead about Native American issues like "Native American is a proper noun, capitalize it". You know, all the usual shittiness minority writers have to deal with when they also have to act as de facto sensitivity consultants because they're the only person from that minority in the room.
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Jul 22, 2023 18:20
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