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DarkCrawler posted:[*]Algeria (France) Yeah, all colonial powers have their lot of awfulness in the past. However I only listed cases where independence wasn't acquired: Ulster is still in UK, Basque country is still in Spain and France, etc. Algeria is independent and sovereign today.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:57
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Regarding foreign support of Israel: two days ago the (now former) British Secretary of Defense was interrogated by a number of MPs about Gaza. It feels pretty good hearing all the questions condemning Israel in a row from MPs of both benches. If anybody can find a version of the video including the Hammond's response, that would own.
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Jul 16, 2014 17:59
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Canada, for instance, had an ongoing slow genocide of Native Americans going on until around 1980. Which is why when Hellbeard (or was I Kaal/TheImmigrant? One of those shitheads) wanted to use Harper as an authority it made me laugh bitter tears. Harper is a terrible human being, but even if he wasn't, Canada is the nice country it tries to present itself as.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:01
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Tender Bender posted:I don't understand the issues enough to say what Israel's point, but the "US citizens who are pro Israel" faction basically says "Israel has to do this because Hamas hates them and wants to destroy them.". There's no deeper level of thinking than that.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:05
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Bishop posted:I'm not saying everyone has this reasoning, but I talked to an American who was supporting Israel because it would make the rapture happen quicker. Sometimes it's hard to keep a straight face in conversation. I do think the point about Israeli domestic politics explains a lot though. Netanyahu is being pressed to ramp things up if anything. The importance of a united Israeli state for Rapture and thus the importance a united Israeli state has in American politics shouldn't be underestimated. There's a large segment of the evangelical population that believe this. Even former president G.W. Bush has spoken at conventions of these groups (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/11/09/maddow-george-w-bush-really-was-trying-to-bring-about-the-end-of-the-world/).
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Jul 16, 2014 18:10
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El Scotch posted:This mess could have been avoided a long time ago if people followed the old 'do unto others' of their precious religions. "To your fellow" "to your friend" "to your neighbor". Remember the rear end in a top hat who asked Jesus "but... who is my neighbor?" And that guy probably wasn't being a smartass, he was just trying to comprehend how wide the net could possibly be cast. Friends and family? Sure, that's fair. Literal neighbors? Makes sense. The entirety of your tribe? Kinda harsh, but still acceptable. Every single Jew... eh. That's already stretching the limits. Everyone? Freaking everyone? That's a joke, right? Because the very concept is blowing the mind of a right-thinking man around 0 CE, and... remember, that was very quickly derailed and reinterpreted as "brothers in Christ" by the church. It's very easy to be fair to people who are like you, but sharing that standard of fairness towards those strange fuckers over the next hill? You might claim that the process of building civilizations consists of exactly that - from family to tribe to city to country to the whole human race. And the more conservative the culture, the more it restricts the membership in the "neighbor category". Tribal societies, for example, are conservative enough that... err, people outside the tribe aren't considered "neighbors". ... Even bigger derail: Liberals tend to think where and how and who you are born to is a matter of chance / accident / luck. Remember the Rawls morality thought experiment idea thing? If we didn't know who we'd get incarnated as, we'd make sure our legislation and institutions were fair to everyone, but slightly biased in favor of the most disadvantaged to even things out, so we'd have a sporting chance no matter who we'd be born as? Makes sense for liberals, but sounds like absolute gibberish to conservatives. Because as far as conservatives are concerned, you're born in a specific time and place for a reason (according to the divine plan or whatever) and you deserve whatever circumstances you were born into (yes, kinda a "just world" thing, but a highly specific subset that I find particularly interesting). The poor, the rich, the white, the black etc. Also, you owe an allegiance to your race / country / religion not because you choose to or because they've done something for you, (the liberal version) but because you were born into them and don't get to leave no matter how lovely) There's a lot of obfuscating talk around the subject, but if you look carefully, this is pretty much at the core of a whole lot of conservative philosophy / ideas. Anyways. The whole "don't do unto others" and "how would you like to be on the other side" just doesn't work that well. They're Jews who were born as Jews for a reason. Arabs were also born as Arabs for some reason, and that's pretty much the only way things could be - the law of the world governs these things. And Arabs are neither fellows nor neighbors. (At least, that's what I understood from as many cab / bus / camp conversations as I could stomach. Take it for what its worth, but that's like the one idea I strongly believe in that I can't find support for in any discussion of conservative ideas, but seems blatantly obvious to me) Xander77 fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 18:24
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Flowers For Algeria posted:Regarding foreign support of Israel: two days ago the (now former) British Secretary of Defense was interrogated by a number of MPs about Gaza. It feels pretty good hearing all the questions condemning Israel in a row from MPs of both benches. If anybody can find a version of the video including the Hammond's response, that would own. Does the UK provide any material support to Israel like the US and could it be threatened?
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Jul 16, 2014 18:32
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I know this one. Suggesting that continuing the cycle of violence is the right thing to do indicates you're mentally sick and lack self-insight. This is more psychiatry than politics. edit: And something for the sane people. Is there anything to this? BernieLomax fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 18:41
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So what happens to Israel when they inevitably lose the support of the United States? It seems that sooner or later, Israel will kill one too many Americans, botch some kind of covert operation directed against its few allies, or just kill enough children with the international spotlight upon them that no sane person would continue to support their actions.
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Jul 16, 2014 18:58
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If serious people in both parties support them unconditionally I'm not sure what the majority of Americans think matters. What eventually tipped American support in South Africa?
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Jul 16, 2014 18:59
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litany of gulps posted:So what happens to Israel when they inevitably lose the support of the United States? It seems that sooner or later, Israel will kill one too many Americans, botch some kind of covert operation directed against its few allies, or just kill enough children with the international spotlight upon them that no sane person would continue to support their actions. As long as they're only killing Muslims it doesn't matter.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:01
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Wasn't Israel killing tons of Christians in Lebanon.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:01
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Radish posted:If serious people in both parties support them unconditionally I'm not sure what the majority of Americans think matters. What eventually tipped American support in South Africa? A huge part of it was the divestment and boycott movement which is a non-starter with Israel because of concerns about similarities between the protest actions and past tools of antisemitism.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:02
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litany of gulps posted:So what happens to Israel when they inevitably lose the support of the United States? It seems that sooner or later, Israel will kill one too many Americans, botch some kind of covert operation directed against its few allies, or just kill enough children with the international spotlight upon them that no sane person would continue to support their actions. Presuming that they ever actually DO lose our support? That really depends. There is a significant possibility that the states which are more hostile will become more openly aggressive to them. If this occurs- or even if it doesn't and Israel just THINKS that's what is happening- we must then fear the potential of the Samson Option being exercised.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:06
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It's actually illegal for an American company to boycott Israel, aswell. So any support literally has to come from the top, so don't count on it happening any time soon.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:08
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litany of gulps posted:So what happens to Israel when they inevitably lose the support of the United States? It seems that sooner or later, Israel will kill one too many Americans, botch some kind of covert operation directed against its few allies, or just kill enough children with the international spotlight upon them that no sane person would continue to support their actions. This sorta assumes support has been trending away from Israel towards Palestine when polls indicate the opposite is true. Anyway the US has supported some pretty monstrous regimes in the past so it's really not like there's a "breaking point" historically. As a hypothetical... who knows? It seems like they are more than capable of handling things on their own though, it's not like it takes super high tech weapons to attack hamas. They'd probably have to chip in a bit more of their own cash to do so.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:08
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Radish posted:If serious people in both parties support them unconditionally I'm not sure what the majority of Americans think matters. What eventually tipped American support in South Africa? When did this happen? Some time in the 80's, or earlier?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:09
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euphronius posted:Wasn't Israel killing tons of Christians in Lebanon. Not that I'm aware of, and last time a significant Christian faction in Lebanon interacted with the IDF it wasn't the Christians who got the shaft.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:10
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redreader posted:When did this happen? Some time in the 80's, or earlier? I believe it's the '80s since I have old Bloom Counties comics where the characters send a guy to D.C in order to use a Blackification ray on the South African ambassador in order to force their hand in their racial segregation. (and yes I know how lame that is to be basing my history knowledge of old newspaper comics)
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Jul 16, 2014 19:11
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Reverend Catharsis posted:- we must then fear the potential of the Samson Option being exercised. Seems like the best way to keep Israel from nuking the Muslim world with impunity would be for Iran to get the bomb in an isolated, besieged Israel scenario. Zeno-25 fucked around with this message at 19:17 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 19:13
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litany of gulps posted:So what happens to Israel when they inevitably lose the support of the United States? It seems that sooner or later, Israel will kill one too many Americans, botch some kind of covert operation directed against its few allies, or just kill enough children with the international spotlight upon them that no sane person would continue to support their actions. Israel knowingly attempted to sink a United States military ship and murder its crew. It's hard to imagine what further line could be crossed.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:16
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What does the ordinary Israeli think about the Israeli nuclear program? Do they agree with the rest of the world that, yes, it exists, or do they buy the Israeli government line?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:17
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Not that I'm aware of, and last time a significant Christian faction in Lebanon interacted with the IDF it wasn't the Christians who got the shaft. I was thinking of the 2006 war.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:18
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http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 gaza invasion likely
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Jul 16, 2014 19:18
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GrumpyDoctor posted:Israel knowingly attempted to sink a United States military ship and murder its crew. It's hard to imagine what further line could be crossed. If Israel tried to exterminate the Palestinians the US would probably suspend military aid at least.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:20
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So much for not occupying Gaza.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:20
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The SO is sorta like a post- MAD scenario, it's a final gently caress-you in the case where Israel is overrun. At least according to this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Ren%C3%A9_Beres , Israel has enough non-land based assets to wipe out most the middle east if overrun. Who knows?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:20
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:What does the ordinary Israeli think about the Israeli nuclear program? Do they agree with the rest of the world that, yes, it exists, or do they buy the Israeli government line? I have yet to meet an Israeli that didn't believe that we have nukes.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:23
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Senjuro posted:I have yet to meet an Israeli that didn't believe that we have nukes. What do Israelis generally think they should be used for, or what is their purpose?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:24
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Real hurthling! posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 I'm inclined to believe that this is just saber-rattling from a gung-ho military commander. We've seen this quite often in previous iterations. Hamas is about to send people to Egypt for actual negotiations, so maybe there is hope for a quick resolution?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:30
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Real hurthling! posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/17/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-strip.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0 So what is/was Israel's justification here, first "Three teens were killed", then "They're bombing us (after we killed some and arrested hundreds)"?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:32
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litany of gulps posted:What do Israelis generally think they should be used for, or what is their purpose? That's harder to say. Not exactly something that comes up in conversations much. Let's just say that I don't remember ever hearing anyone but the dumbest and most hateful suggest anything beyond keeping them as a deterrent.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:33
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litany of gulps posted:What do Israelis generally think they should be used for, or what is their purpose? Prevent a second holocaust and discourage any future attempts to invade Israel.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:36
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litany of gulps posted:What do Israelis generally think they should be used for, or what is their purpose? Probably different to what americans think, since the USA is the only country to ever have bombed civiians with a nuke, even once.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:36
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Prevent a second holocaust and discourage any future attempts to invade Israel. Because thats likely to happen....
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Jul 16, 2014 19:38
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mcmagic posted:Because thats likely to happen.... Not when we got nukes, that's for certain.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:41
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Not when we got nukes, that's for certain. Actually proliferation makes it more likely that if Israel is ever attacked by another country (before demographics destroys it) that it would also be with nuclear weapons.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:44
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mcmagic posted:Actually proliferation makes it more likely that if Israel is ever attacked by another country (before demographics destroys it) that it would also be with nuclear weapons. Hmm Im not so sure. Do you have maths to support this?
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Jul 16, 2014 19:45
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mcmagic posted:Actually proliferation makes it more likely that if Israel is ever attacked by another country (before demographics destroys it) that it would also be with nuclear weapons. We fear a second holocaust, we're pretty open minded to the prospect of an apocalypse.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:46
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redreader posted:Probably different to what americans think, since the USA is the only country to ever have bombed civiians with a nuke, even once. Frankly I don't know what most Americans think of the nuclear programs here. Many of them think that Russia and China are honest to god conventional threats to US military supremacy, which would lead to a potentially warped view of the necessity of having such weapons. That kind of thinking is obviously rooted in ignorance, though. Nukes don't really have much of a place in modern American strategy or thinking. Of course, many of our military innovations don't have much of a place or purpose other than lining the pockets of certain groups. With a country like Israel, who already has overwhelming conventional force and decades of technology and research trumping anything their opponents possess, it begs the same question. What are they for? emanresu tnuocca posted:Not when we got nukes, that's for certain. Seems to me like the easiest way for the Jewish people to have another Holocaust happen would be to use a nuclear weapon.
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Jul 16, 2014 19:47
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