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FordPRefectLL posted:cool story but i'm not a militant atheist and AA clearly tries to backdoor convert people to christianity. it's easy to say ITS ANY HIGH POWER YOU WANT but in practice it is obviously jesus christ people are supposed to accept as evidenced by the heavy references to Him and His Grace etc and the fact that they literally perform the lord's prayer at the end of the meetings There are some members who are Christian and who use the 12-step model to slowly and methodically help people to discover the "one true God," and then there are people like me who, whenever we get the chance, let everybody know that it isn't necessary to become a Christian in order to have a spiritual experience. In fact, it might actually be counter-indicated, since the Big Book itself, and the founding members of AA, had all tried religion and found that it wasn't sufficient to help them get sober. Instead, what they found to be helpful was trying to help other drunks. That's the really important part. I've known recovering alcoholics who are atheist, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, all sorts of "pagan," generically spiritual, new age... whatever. AA is not a religious organization. Some members of AA think it is, but they're flat wrong, and I let them know it at every chance I get.
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Sep 28, 2014 17:12
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n0n0 posted:There are some members who are Christian and who use the 12-step model to slowly and methodically help people to discover the "one true God," and then there are people like me who, whenever we get the chance, let everybody know that it isn't necessary to become a Christian in order to have a spiritual experience. ohhhh noo, not christian just "spiritual" ~~ooohhhh~~ lmao but you ARE implying the true one white god, no matter how you slice it.
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Sep 28, 2014 17:25
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FordPRefectLL posted:cool story but i'm not a militant atheist and AA clearly tries to backdoor convert people to christianity. it's easy to say ITS ANY HIGH POWER YOU WANT but in practice it is obviously jesus christ people are supposed to accept as evidenced by the heavy references to Him and His Grace etc and the fact that they literally perform the lord's prayer at the end of the meetings No I meant that you have to accept some sort of higher power be it god, Buddha, some wishy washy universe poo poo etc. I'm really sorry your AAs are fundie camps  and that your friend is a pos
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Sep 28, 2014 17:28
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i quoted the wrong loving post
jarvis cocker fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 17:29
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jarvis cocker posted:ohhhh noo, not christian just "spiritual" ~~ooohhhh~~ lmao
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Sep 28, 2014 17:36
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n0n0 posted:Because everybody who has a spiritual life is a Christian? "spiritual" sounds like garbage to me, Christianity or not
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Sep 28, 2014 17:38
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Why do you even have to submit to a higher power? Why can't you be in charge of your own fate? Submitting to a higher power, whatever you call that power, is a very Christian idea.
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Sep 28, 2014 18:04
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A while ago I was ordered to attend either AA/NA meetings because I was busted with coke. I'm not religious at all but was also given permission to attend SMART recovery meetings instead so I did that and it was pretty alright. I went to one AA meeting because I missed the one SMART meeting and had to hold hands with a hobo while they recited the lords prayer, no thanks. It didn't work for me, as matter of fact after each meeting I would hit the bar and grab a drink and tell my bartender all the funny stories I heard that day. Alright, thanks for listening.
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Sep 28, 2014 18:28
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The people in AA around here that even believe in a deity are the minority, but maybe that's just northeast cities. We have atheist and agnostic meetings, but they end up being the same people that go to all of the other meetings as well lol. It's really just about getting outside of yourself and asking for help/help others instead of acting like a know it all shut-in.
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Sep 28, 2014 18:28
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FordPRefectLL posted:so then i read the first 4 chapters of the big book and chapter 4 is literally saying if you are an alcholic atheist you will die and that you need to get close to God to survive It's not religious you are free to worship Jesus Christ any way you want.
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Sep 28, 2014 18:41
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Wadjamaloo posted:Which is why the AA approach is garbage, there are more than one type of alcoholic and they all drink for different reasons. The kind of alcoholic that AA helps the most is the kind that doesn't give a poo poo about any of these consequences and will rather just drink himself to death instead. Who drinks even after multiple DUIs, arrests, hospital stays, job losses, divorce, etc... I know a guy who passed out drunk on the train tracks and lost one of his legs. As soon as he got out of the hosiptal, he went right to the liquor store. These are the kinds of alcoholics that AA helps. IE, AA is unnecessary for all but the worst of the worst alcoholics, as fear and consequences will not keep the real alcoholic sober. he has to be shown some kind of hope, which is what AA provides through the camaraderie and fellowship. Kleen_TheRacistDog fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 18:44
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in this scene cary grant's friends are helping
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Sep 28, 2014 18:54
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AA is way too unorganized to be a religious cult. IMO the higher power thing is like a psychological placebo effect. Lots of people have been so beaten down by their drinking that they have given up on themselves. AA says that this is ok (first step) and that you can give up control to your higher power (step two and 3) , then do a bunch of poo poo (the other steps) that will keep you sober. By believing that they have spiritual backup, the person gains enough confidence in their own willpower to choose not to drink. Whatever works I guess.
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Sep 28, 2014 19:02
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The higher power is yourself.
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Sep 28, 2014 19:05
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my deranged neighbor is real big into AA cause he started drinking when he was 11 or what the hell ever. He's memorized the book and can recite it on command like scripture. He's incorporated this narrative that anyone who drinks is an alcoholic and alcoholics can't control their emotions or accept responsibility or anything. So he caught me sitting on my porch smoking and drinking a 12 pack and now he's convinced i'm a hosed up rear end in a top hat and he's a huge dick about "helping" me and every time I say anything about how I only drink once every two-three months or whatever he knows i'm a lying alcoholic. He's suggested the higher power thing a few times and made me take a copy of the book, but now I hate talking to him because that's the only thing he goes on about now. also smoking is another indicator for alcoholic personality disorder and is further evidence that i'm mega hosed up
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Sep 28, 2014 19:08
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you should help him like that one scene in north by northwest where cary grant's friends are helping
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Sep 28, 2014 19:10
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What if this 'higher power' actually wants you to be an alcoholic?
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Sep 28, 2014 19:11
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he's a bad person though I don't want to see him in any alterd state because he's a hosed up dude and I don't want to be involved with that
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Sep 28, 2014 19:12
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Bishop posted:AA is way too unorganized to be a religious cult. i think the problem is that it doesn't work for most people because people usually drink for a reason and this is why there is therapy
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Sep 28, 2014 19:17
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you mean a reason other than not accepting christ? highly improbable according to my pastor
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Sep 28, 2014 19:19
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i accept satan as my higher power i can be a glutton and eat a ton of poo poo but i also have to have pride in myself so i work out like crazy and bone down w/ my gf whenever i feel like it and i can drink all i want as long as its an indulgence and not a compulsion
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Sep 28, 2014 19:23
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dont even need to hang out with other satanists
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Sep 28, 2014 19:27
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Wadjamaloo posted:Why do you even have to submit to a higher power? Why can't you be in charge of your own fate? aa wanna make me act like terminator 1 but I'm T2 to the core baby
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Sep 28, 2014 19:30
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I was ordered to go to a single AA (or equivalent) meeting when I was in college. I went to one in a church in a pretty big city outside of Boston, kind of a rough-and-tumble blue collar place. But somehow out of the 50+ people there about half were clean cut 18-28yo dudes like myself just sitting there waiting to get a signature to say they went. The other half who were there for actual help really, really looked like they needed it, like they were just so crusty and hated themselves so much. One woman had just been arrested after her daughter called the cops on her for DUI. She was crying, and then other burly guys started crying about how they had lost their families. So the religious part doesnt really even factor in to these people from what I saw, it's for people who destroyed their lives and just need to know that somebody or something cares about them and doesnt consider them disgusting. So to me the weirdness of AA isn't from the religious part, it's the way it's become the default "help" for anyone who's doe something stupid while drunk one too many times. If you still have enough free time and mental clarity to deconstruct the AA rules beyond their basic concepts then AA isnt for you. It's for the really hopeless that need to rebuild after ruining their lives w alcohol. E: also a few of the people who spoke were obviously hammered which I assumed was against the rules but was very much not. Rubies fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 19:52
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My problem is not the organization or the people that attend who are there to actually receive help, it's the fact that you can be ordered by a secular court to attend what is pretty blatantly a Christian organization. This is changing now with the court systems now that alternatives such as SMART are popping up.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:11
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Throwdown posted:My problem is not the organization or the people that attend who are there to actually receive help, it's the fact that you can be ordered by a secular court to attend what is pretty blatantly a Christian organization. This is changing now with the court systems now that alternatives such as SMART are popping up. That's kind of what I was getting at in my long-winded post above. Half the people there were ordered to go, and it's weird that a judge representing our secular govt tells you to go watch people at their lowest moments tearfully recount their horrific lives like some kind of freak show to "scare you straight".
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Sep 28, 2014 20:18
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Being ordered by the court to attend an AA meeting is easy to fake and anyone who has reservations about going to court mandated AA meetings, here's what you do: Go onto internet, find an AA meeting, write down the date and time of the meeting, and scribble whatever you want in the signature section. By virtue of it being anonymous, whoever is checking the signatures can't very well call up whoever you don't need to provide contact information for in order to find out if you were even there.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:19
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Wadjamaloo posted:My sister had a pretty bad drinking problem. She had a DUI, lost her job for showing up to work drunk, was blacking out every night etc. She went to AA and could not handle all of the religious BS. I was like this for a long time too. And about eight months back I also started to see a therapist, and now I no longer abuse alcohol. AA is loving garbage and a scam that may actually be more harmful than not going at all. There isn't a single person at an AA meeting that couldn't be better served by actually talking one on one with a specialist that can help guide them on a path to recovery that is directly tailored to there needs. All this talk about how it's for the hopeless drunks is bullshit. n0n0 posted:Because everybody who has a spiritual life is a Christian? Can you even define "spiritual"? It's a bullshit nonsense word.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:45
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Rubies posted:That's kind of what I was getting at in my long-winded post above. Half the people there were ordered to go, and it's weird that a judge representing our secular govt tells you to go watch people at their lowest moments tearfully recount their horrific lives like some kind of freak show to "scare you straight". You know, I never really thought of the "freak show" aspect and it really does come off disrespectful by the courts. Gotta wonder what the people are thinking that actually go for help when a spectator shows up, if they feel like their comfort zone is being violated.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:48
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Kleen_TheRowdyDog posted:I think the point is that some "alcoholics" can get sober by therapy or by will power or by pressures from the court or family or work. You also seem to be devaluing another persons experience by positioning yours as being superior. The whole "pfft, of course that worked for you, you don't know what my life is like", which is another mindset my sister had hated about AA. You'd think people be offering help to address things early before it ends up a larger problem, not one becomes a hopeless alcoholic over night. eSporks fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 20:49
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I think a few people are getting the serenity prayer confused with the lords prayer, they are not the same.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:49
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Who What Now posted:I was like this for a long time too. And about eight months back I also started to see a therapist, and now I no longer abuse alcohol. AA is loving garbage and a scam that may actually be more harmful than not going at all. There isn't a single person at an AA meeting that couldn't be better served by actually talking one on one with a specialist that can help guide them on a path to recovery that is directly tailored to there needs. All this talk about how it's for the hopeless drunks is bullshit. yeah this exposes the real reason AA is so huge and so many people are state-ordered to go to meetings: it's free to make someone go to meetings. Doing the right thing and making them see a therapist is expensive and god knows in america we aren't about to pay for some DIRTY DRUNK to go to a nice therapist.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:49
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Cosmic Charlie posted:I think a few people are getting the serenity prayer confused with the lords prayer, they are not the same. they do both and the dude that said fake the court cards. thats good advice. ----------------
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Sep 28, 2014 20:50
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VideoTapir posted:The higher power is yourself. 
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Sep 28, 2014 20:54
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jarvis cocker posted:they do both You know I was about to argue that but youre right, I completely forgot about that.
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Sep 28, 2014 20:56
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Cosmic Charlie posted:You know I was about to argue that but youre right, I completely forgot about that. lord'ds prayer comes up less often than the other one which is mandated by cult rules to be said in every meeting while they all hold hands thats weird man
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Sep 28, 2014 21:02
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Who What Now posted:There isn't a single person at an AA meeting that couldn't be better served by actually talking one on one with a specialist that can help guide them on a path to recovery that is directly tailored to there needs. So, basically, you're talking out of your rear end, as I am a "single person" who was NOT "better served by actually taking one on one with a specialist..." So, gently caress off, human being. ----------------
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Sep 28, 2014 21:07
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At the most basic level AA at least puts you in contact with people in the same situation as you and with the same goal.
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Sep 28, 2014 21:19
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Who What Now posted:I was like this for a long time too. And about eight months back I also started to see a therapist, and now I no longer abuse alcohol. AA is loving garbage and a scam that may actually be more harmful than not going at all. There isn't a single person at an AA meeting that couldn't be better served by actually talking one on one with a specialist that can help guide them on a path to recovery that is directly tailored to there needs. All this talk about how it's for the hopeless drunks is bullshit. you don't have a drinking problem you are in complete control. Don't listen to anyone who says otherwise. Kleen_TheRowdyDog posted:I went to a therapist for years before I got sober. For me, I needed the fellowship of other people who thought and acted and drank like me, yet had somehow recovered, to muster enough hope to get sober. addicts in denial cannot be reasoned with and an alcoholic is one of the worst. I told my husband who has been sober for 10 years and a sponsor too four people and his immediately said in a deadpan voice "denial isn't just a river in Egypt". An addict can't use their addiction responsibly and anyone who believes that is a danger to themselves and their loved ones plain blue jacket fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Sep 28, 2014 |
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Sep 28, 2014 21:25
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Kleen_TheRowdyDog posted:I went to a therapist for years before I got sober. For me, I needed the fellowship of other people who thought and acted and drank like me, yet had somehow recovered, to muster enough hope to get sober. Your therapist sucked rear end, and now you're a shittier person for it. Maybe next time try more than one before joining a literal cult.
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Sep 28, 2014 21:27
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