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Bregor posted:I'm reminded of a quote from an old commercial for Comcast with those turtles, the Slowskys. "Why don't you like fun?" I never said I didn't like Hot and Cold; I said I was bad at it. Yes, you heard it here. I am bad at fun.
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May 8, 2014 07:10
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simplefish posted:I hated Hot and Cold too I'm sorry? I don't believe this is valid sentence construction. Those words cannot be put together in that order. In conclusion: 
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May 8, 2014 07:54
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FillInTheBlank posted:The entirety of 12 can be done in a low level run, yes even the 50m HP Yiazmat so grinding can't really be necessary. I don't know if I've ever seen a low-level run I wouldn't qualify as a grind.
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May 8, 2014 11:39
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Any time you win a random battle or get an item you can avoid, it is grinding.
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May 8, 2014 15:23
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Low-level games can be done without level grinding, but they generally involve similar quantities of tedium. (Restart this battle over and over while stealing one item and running away to make money/have useful items, carefully edge your way around this fight you can't deal with, use an exploit to get through a wall to cut off a section of the game, run the same combo of abilities 14923 times doing one damage to the boss each time, etc.) Those things aren't LEVEL grinding, but they do feel an awful lot like grinding. They also generally require you to have an in-depth knowledge of the game that your random first-time player is unlikely to have. Even with FF8, where being low-level is actually helpful, someone just playing the game for the first time is unlikely to realize it or understand how the game mechanics work to the extent necessary to exploit it. LLGs are cool, but they only appeal to a very narrow subset of the people who play games, in general. So, yeah, it's totally possible for a game to be beatable with low-level characters but still require your average person to grind to finish.
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May 8, 2014 15:42
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Is that mod actually any good or is it mostly like bosses have a billion more HP than they should? I've been wanting to at least try FFVIII but the battle system sounds so utterly breakable it wouldn't require half a brain wave by the end.
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May 8, 2014 17:39
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Other than the fact that it's got ridiculously good rewards, I'll never understand why people actually like and put up with Chocobo Hot & Cold: all it boils down to is an annoying randomized timed pixel hunt followed by a futile attempt to match up the tiny low-resolution screenshots with the correct world map locations until you give up and just look them up on YT.
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May 8, 2014 17:41
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AnotherGamer posted:Other than the fact that it's got ridiculously good rewards, I'll never understand why people actually like and put up with Chocobo Hot & Cold Ukelele de Chocobo is the best Chocobo soundtrack and I will fight anyone who claims otherwise.
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May 8, 2014 17:45
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AnotherGamer posted:Other than the fact that it's got ridiculously good rewards, I'll never understand why people actually like and put up with Chocobo Hot & Cold: all it boils down to is an annoying randomized timed pixel hunt followed by a futile attempt to match up the tiny low-resolution screenshots with the correct world map locations until you give up and just look them up on YT. It's even worse if you're playing on an emulator, constantly loading and reloading state to see if the spot you're in will have an item at that fraction of a second, or the next.
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May 8, 2014 17:46
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AnotherGamer posted:I'll never understand why people actually like and put up with Chocobo Hot & Cold Because presentation and player psychology matter.
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May 8, 2014 17:47
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Hot & Cold is terrible, but the treasure hunting is awesome.
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May 8, 2014 17:51
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Kaasen posted:Is that mod actually any good or is it mostly like bosses have a billion more HP than they should? I've been wanting to at least try FFVIII but the battle system sounds so utterly breakable it wouldn't require half a brain wave by the end. Reading the description makes me say pass. Seems to be all about removing features (several spells no longer have unique effects, status spells even more useless against bosses). The good thing is the nerfed junction systems, but you could do that kind rebalancing with out being obsessive about making absolutely sure there's no way to cheese anything at the expense of making stuff less varied and interesting.
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May 8, 2014 17:59
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A game like FFVIII is just fundamentally broken, and trying to make it not broken is just going to involve a series of nerfs that really, why not just do a challenge run. It's better to leave a certain amount of broken in, and just make it so that different sorts of broken are all legit, and enemies are better able to survive the broken for a while. Maybe remove the especially egregious stuff (for FFVIII, I'd say gank Card Mod), but on the whole rebalance is much more interesting than fixes.
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May 8, 2014 18:10
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Kaasen posted:Is that mod actually any good or is it mostly like bosses have a billion more HP than they should? I've been wanting to at least try FFVIII but the battle system sounds so utterly breakable it wouldn't require half a brain wave by the end. There is now only two ways to get Vit 0 on an enemy and also there is now only one way to use Aura (the spell that lets you Limit Break spam) In the original, Vit 0 and Aura means you never had to do anything else. You could steamroll every boss ever with just Squall using that combination. Their removal makes the game quite a bit more fun. I only used Limits in the final boss gauntlet. Otherwise the best way to do damage was magic, and offensive magic is useless in vanilla VIII. Ability+ have been reduced so you can no longer get loving HP + 80% or whatever absurd crap was in the original. Strength can only go up to +60% and that's with 3 ability slots sacrificed to it. Highest strength stat I think, with level 100 Rinoa and 100 Ultima to Str-J and Str +50%, was only about 220. Also the only way to get 9999 HP with one ability slot is to be Level 100 have 100 Ultima to HP-J. With HP+40% you'll get 9999. For my final, triumphant attempt I gave up two slots for HP+40 and HP+20 and put Meteor to Rinoa's HP so I could have Ultima on her Mag-J so she did more damage. The final four bosses have a cumulative 2,000,000 or so HP apparently and took me almost two hours to beat on my billionth attempt but damned if it wasn't unimaginably fun. Ultimecia is now my favorite FF final boss ever because of this mod. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:25 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:15
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NikkolasKing posted:There is now only two ways to get Vit 0 on an enemy and also there is now only one way to use Aura (the spell that lets you Limit Break spam) In the original, Vit 0 and Aura means you never had to do anything else. You could steamroll every boss ever with just Squall using that combination. Or you could just play the game regularly without going out your way to grind for Aura and not use the limit break every turn glitch. Like if you want to nerf it, just make it less available, although I'm pretty sure it already was one of the rarer spells unless you specifically looked up how to farm it.
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May 8, 2014 18:25
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Hedera Helix posted:It's even worse if you're playing on an emulator, constantly loading and reloading state to see if the spot you're in will have an item at that fraction of a second, or the next. If you're using the features of an emulator to make a game less fun, you have no one to blame but yourself.
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May 8, 2014 18:25
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BioMe posted:Or you could just play the game regularly without going out your way to grind for Aura and not use the limit break every turn glitch. Like if you want to nerf it, just make it less available, although I'm pretty sure it already was one of the rarer spells unless you specifically looked up how to farm it. I played through most of FFVIII up until you got the Rangarok with a pseudo-Job Class Challenge. Squall was only allowed Str and Vit Junction and the other two were only allowed Mag and Spr Junction. One was a healer/support mage and the other was black magic and status ailments. I also never used Limits. I still beat every boss with ease. It was still easy and boring as poo poo, and this was without ever utilizing Triple Triad. You will need Triple Triad to survive in this mod. The first real boss, the thing at Dollet Communication Tower, will obliterate you if you don't have higher level spells you can only get from TT grinding. I had never played TT really in any previous runs of this game so I didn't appreciate it until that boss kicked my rear end several times. Then I went and got Card Mod and suddenly it was a nice challenge but not impossible. Did You Know: You can get INFINITE INVINCIBLE ITEMS via Triple Triad? Who the gently caress thought of having it so you can just repeatedly mod the Gilgamesh Card for 10 Holy Wars on Disk 4? Your superboss and final boss don't seem so tough when you literally hand out game breakers. The point of Requiem is you don't have to restrict yourself. All the effort you would originally put into making yourself weaker to make the game more interesting you can now put into actually making yourself as strong as possible. That's why I actually enjoyed myself this time around. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 18:37 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:33
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NikkolasKing posted:I played through most of FFVIII up until you got the Rangarok with a pseudo-Job Class Challenge. Squall was only allowed Str and Vit Junction and the other two were only allowed Mag and Spr Junction. One was a healer/support mage and the other was black magic and status ailments. I also never used Limits. I still beat every boss with ease. It was still easy and boring as poo poo, and this was without ever utilizing Triple Triad. That sounds kind of horrible to be honest. Different way than I first thought, but even worse. EDIT: Also grinding Gilgamesh cards is exactly the kind of game breaking thing I talked about - You have to go so out your way to cheese the game that way that if someone wants to do it then why bother nerfing it? No one who plays for challenge will, unless their OCD is really so nuts they actually need to mod the game to stop themselves. BioMe fucked around with this message at 18:44 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:40
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NikkolasKing posted:I played through most of FFVIII up until you got the Rangarok with a pseudo-Job Class Challenge. Squall was only allowed Str and Vit Junction and the other two were only allowed Mag and Spr Junction. One was a healer/support mage and the other was black magic and status ailments. I also never used Limits. I still beat every boss with ease. It was still easy and boring as poo poo, and this was without ever utilizing Triple Triad. Wait, cards that you card mod aren't lost forever?
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May 8, 2014 18:50
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After a certain point in the game, any rare card that's been 'lost' pops up in the Card Queen's lineup. If you can find her. Also she plays under whatever the gently caress Rules she wants, so most likely you're playing on random with no Open rule in place. So you can, but unless you're very meticulous about it it's not worth the time. Not even for Holy Wars. e: Or maybe it's on the Ragnarok? I always thought it was the Card Queen. CmdrKing fucked around with this message at 19:04 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:54
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Yukari posted:Wait, cards that you card mod aren't lost forever? Nope. You go to the one portal at Ultimecia's Castle on Disk 4. You will find a Chocobo Forest and you can get a Chocobo there to travel all the way back to the Ragnarok in Esthar. Thee you can get back every rare card you ever modded. So basiclaly, you win a Gilgamesh Card, mod it into 10 Holy Wars, they play another Gilgamesh Card, another 10 Holy Wars, etc. You can do the same for Angelo if you are running low on Elixirs. 100 Elixirs should ensure you never come close to dying in vanilla VIII. BioMe posted:That sounds kind of horrible to be honest. Different way than I first thought, but even worse. ...it's doing a simple sidequest. You beat five people at cards on Disk 2 and then you use one of the Portals on Disk 4 (that is obviously designed for if you missed stuff) and bam, you are rolling in more items than you will ever know what to do with. I mean, yeah, making Hero-trials or whatever? That is going out of your way to cheese the game. It's really pretty hard to make thoe and Holy Wars. Luckily the game offers you a simple, thought-free alternative. I'm not talking Lion Heart on Disk 1 grinding here for original VIII. It takes minimal, almost zero, effort to make the game easy. Why should I keep neutering myself in every way possible when the game is literally handing me game-breakers? NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:05 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 18:56
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AnotherGamer posted:followed by a futile attempt to match up the tiny low-resolution screenshots with the correct world map locations until you give up and just look them up on YT. There is precisely one bullshit location (looking at you, Ocean  ), but all the other ones shouldn't take more than like 2-3 minutes of searching with the picture and the clue.
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May 8, 2014 18:58
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NikkolasKing posted:Nope. You go to the one portal at Ultimecia's Castle on Disk 4. You will find a Chocobo Forest and you can get a Chocobo there to travel all the way back to the Ragnarok in Esthar. Thee you can get back every rare card you ever modded. So basiclaly, you win a Gilgamesh Card, mod it into 10 Holy Wars, they play another Gilgamesh Card, another 10 Holy Wars, etc. I think you just don't have the concept of obtuse. Who the gently caress goes to grind for cards when you are already at the final dungeon? How would you know the cards respawn without specifically looking for even more ways to break the game on gamefaqs? And more importantly, if you think it ruins the balance why do it?
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May 8, 2014 19:16
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Does that include the PuPu card, or is that one excluded from the list?
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May 8, 2014 19:31
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I didn't do it. I told you, I never bothered with TT until the Requiem Mod. The Holy Wars don't break the game there since all they do is give you Haste/Protect/Shell/Regen on the party. You don't need to do TT to make FFVIII easy, as I pointed out with my Job Class Challenge Run that was still really boring and easy. The thing about the Requiem Mod is it actually makes it a necessity to utilize the game's various features. YOu could beat the game with ease in any number of ways in the original and that's precisely why I never had fun with it. The mod helped show me the depth of VIII's gameplay with the numerous items, the manifold ways to refine things, etc.. I had a lot of fun gathering TT cards and figuring out what makes what and then some of those things make a couple other things and it was just really cool. YOu will never have to do any of that in the original game because it's so easy that it does not encourage you to fully explore everything. Yukari posted:Does that include the PuPu card, or is that one excluded from the list? Nope, the only way to get his card is to do the UFO Sidequest and give him the Elixirs. I think it's the only card you can't get on the Ragnarok though. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 19:35 on May 8, 2014 |
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May 8, 2014 19:32
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Yeah, I was wondering if you could get his card, and then card mod it to add it to the Queen's list, but I can kinda understand if you couldn't, because it's a really good card mod if I remember correctly.
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May 8, 2014 19:43
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NikkolasKing posted:I didn't do it. I told you, I never bothered with TT until the Requiem Mod. The Holy Wars don't break the game there since all they do is give you Haste/Protect/Shell/Regen on the party. The thing is, "You have to grind Triple Triad to play it now" is not a sign of good rebalance, or even a "hard mode" mod.
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May 8, 2014 19:55
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Yukari posted:Yeah, I was wondering if you could get his card, and then card mod it to add it to the Queen's list, but I can kinda understand if you couldn't, because it's a really good card mod if I remember correctly. Mechanic-wise, PuPu is a completely normal non-rare level 5 card (read: the game stores whether you've seen it, and the quantity you currently have; contrast rares, where it stores whether you've seen it, and who currently owns it with "modded" being a potential owner) with the special caveat that no AI card player will ever choose to use it. This includes any and all special card players as well. Barring cheat devices, this means the only PuPu card you'll ever get is the one from the sidequest. If you miss it (kill, devour, or run from PuPu), lose it, or mod it, you're not getting another one. Since its logic is not the logic of a rare card, it's not like it can have its "owner" reassigned from "modded" to a disc 4 CC member allowing you to get it back (which is what happens with the rare cards). It's a decent enough card mod - it turns into Hungry Cookpot which teaches Devour or refines into Shaman Stone (which basically means it refines into Rosetta Stone, which teaches Ability x4). However, Eden learns Devour naturally and is available at the same point in the plot as the card, and you don't need multiple copies of Devour for any reason. And Rosetta Stones are not only technically available earlier, but you get as many as you actually need for free anyway, and if you want to refine more it only takes about 15 minutes (and that's a relatively long grind as far as FF8 is concerned). Point being, it's not actually all that useful in practice to mod the PuPu card.
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May 8, 2014 21:04
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FF8 mod trip report: Characters now hit like pillows even with second tier magic on STR-J. 200 is my current limit on damage with Squall kitted out with 100 Thundara on his attack junction. Elem-ATK-J is negligible. Basic magic now starts at around 200 damage (3-5 times your melee at that point) and Blizzara on anything but Ifrit in the fire cave does 1k+. Junctioning magic to things is negligible. A 15 point increase in a stat is an amazing thing to behold now. Anacondaurs do 300+ damage a hit to your 750~ hp pool if you're as overlevelled as I was. That stupid jellyfish thing around Balamb does Petrify now.
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May 8, 2014 22:28
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Hog Butcher posted:FF8 mod trip report: It could always do that though, once it got past the baby levels. Unless you meant they can do it while Squall was at level 8, which would be pretty annoying.
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May 8, 2014 23:14
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Whelp since getting my hands on the IZJS version of FFXII I've gotten further than ever before, I have usefull gambits, But still no Gil to buy equipment. Im at a big Dungeon and just got murdered gona have to TP back to the main town and grind cash. Money is really tight in FFXII even with the fast forward grind fest, mind you that does mean you can put the game in fast forward sit on an spawner and wander off for 3 hours and come back to a million Licence points for your dudes. Well more like 300 but still.
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May 8, 2014 23:30
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Panboy posted:Whelp since getting my hands on the IZJS version of FFXII I've gotten further than ever before, I have usefull gambits, But still no Gil to buy equipment. Im at a big Dungeon and just got murdered gona have to TP back to the main town and grind cash. Money is really tight in FFXII even with the fast forward grind fest, mind you that does mean you can put the game in fast forward sit on an spawner and wander off for 3 hours and come back to a million Licence points for your dudes. Well more like 300 but still. Set Balthier or Vaan to steal from targets with 100% health as their top priority. That gets rid of a lot of money issues.
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May 8, 2014 23:37
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Hog Butcher posted:Set Balthier or Vaan to steal from targets with 100% health as their top priority. That gets rid of a lot of money issues. 90% worked better for me, just in case the first steal doesn't stick. (though for mooks and with the thief gloves/cuffs it really shouldnt be a problem). And it's strange: I never had much need for more money in XII, unless IZJS switched up the game economy. I do know you can buy more/better things earlier.
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May 9, 2014 00:08
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Hog Butcher posted:FF8 mod trip report: Is there ever a point to use physical attacks then? If the mod all but forces you to use your cards anyway, it isn't like you'd have any difficulty replenishing magic. Dayvan Cowboy fucked around with this message at 00:19 on May 9, 2014 |
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May 9, 2014 00:11
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I never got an English IJZS pactch to work. Which is a shame, because I really wanted to try it out.
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May 9, 2014 00:20
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Hog Butcher posted:FF8 mod trip report: You're playing Requiem? Forget the Aga spells, Tornado and Quake are best. I totally missed out on how they were the best and most powerful spells for a long, long time. Tornado is good for Junctioning right now though so I guess you can stick with the other spells. It's very easy to stock up on Thundaga and Blizzaga though from Blitz and Snow lion Cards. I had great luck with Blitz Cards from the lady in Timber Hotel I think. Somebody in Timber. But yeah, Abyss Worm Cards for 100 Tornado's a person are very easy to come by in either Balamb or Timber. And yeah, if you run into 2 Anacondaurs, just loving run. I had the misfortune of that and it was not pleasant.
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May 9, 2014 00:32
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Soo, grind the card game forever and savestate every step so you can avoid nasty random encounters. And this is... more fun?
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May 9, 2014 00:33
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BioMe posted:The thing is, "You have to grind Triple Triad to play it now" is not a sign of good rebalance, or even a "hard mode" mod. That alone tells me to never, ever try that mod. I hated Triple Triad. I know most people think in insane for that (I enjoyed 9's Tetra Master much more), but I think Trple Triad is an awful game and the music makes me want to set things on fire.
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May 9, 2014 00:35
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Edward_Tohr posted:Soo, grind the card game forever and savestate every step so you can avoid nasty random encounters. You don't have to avoid every random encounter. Most aren't anything harder than the original. Anacondaurs are a special nightmare, like Wendigos. Level 100 Wendigos are harder than bosses for some reason. I was still slaughtering all the super-tough enemies like Tri-Face and Chimera and whatever else just fine. I never could have gotten everyone to Level 100 if not. Actually, I used this one awesome spot near Timber where you can only run into Vysage, Lefty and Righty. Equip Silence on Status Atk-J and one or maybe two at the most attacks on Vysage and Lefty and suddenly the fight is a cakewalk for free tons of EXP. Got Squall to Level 100 on Disk 2 with those guys and it didn't take long at all. Serifina posted:That alone tells me to never, ever try that mod. I hated Triple Triad. I know most people think in insane for that (I enjoyed 9's Tetra Master much more), but I think Trple Triad is an awful game and the music makes me want to set things on fire. Triple Triad is awful. I never understood Same or Plus or Same Wall or any of that poo poo. I still got all the best cards.
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May 9, 2014 00:43
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My biggest gripe with FF8 is that it violates the fundamental rule of RPGs, leveling up should be a good thing. One of the main reasons you play rpgs is to watch numbers get bigger, making those numbers bigger should not make the game harder. I"m not opposed to things that scale with your level to keep things challenging, but having everything scale with your level and faster then you do is just about the most pants on head, rear end-backwards design decision possible. I would say it was almost as stupid as story, but then I remembered the plot of disk 3/4 and decided it wasn't quite at that level. That mod just sounds like your average hardmode hack. It makes the game grinder, and turn the difficulty curve into a brick wall for anyone who hasn't already mastered the game. It doesn't really do anything to fix a lot of the core issues I have with the battle system. Then again if you removed/changed every part of the battle system I have a problem with I don't know what would be left. FF never exactly had the best designed game play in the world but with 8 it seems like it would be easier to list the parts of the core gameplay that aren't stupid horribly imbalanced or fundamentally broken.
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May 9, 2014 00:51
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