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The Bee posted:What. I'm getting the sense it's just pride, but thats not acceptable anyway. I'm even offering him outs like 'let's just compromise and have our rich NPC quest giver bankroll a resurrection spell when we get back fromt he quest'. I'm not even asking to retcon the last 90 minutes of the session (my death was the literal last thing that happened), as I get why that can be super unpalatable and set a bad precedence. But I dont think asking for a bit of a DM handout in getting my character back alive is too much.
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Feb 8, 2017 17:35
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Agent355 posted:Me and my DM are talking now about how the sessions last night ended. He's a good friend of mine I've known for several years but is so far refusing to even admit that he made mistakes, just giving me poo poo like 'well I can't promise that every encounter is going to follow the rules perfectly'. Has he implied that this death is actually the end of the character? Does he have something planned that will continue this character's story--whether it be through resurrection or vampirism? If the answer is no then he is being unreasonable. He's taking your ball for no reason.
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Feb 8, 2017 17:36
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MTV Crib Death posted:Has he implied that this death is actually the end of the character? Does he have something planned that will continue this character's story--whether it be through resurrection or vampirism? He's pretty hard on death in general, and access to resurrection sort of stuff as a 4th level character isn't easy. The cheapest reasonable option is a level 5 spell which requires a corpse that is 10 days old or less. More expensive options that won't require her corpse (which the vmapire has) are 7th level and too expensive for us. Without DM assistance reviving the character doesn't seem possible. of course as the DM he's totally capable of coming up with a solution but so far is offering me nothing.
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Feb 8, 2017 17:42
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Sounds like the DM had a cranky day and took it out on your character or something. I can understand if he had a plan that was contingent on what you wanted to disrupt and so forth, or a vampire encounter, but with no IC or OOC mention of that ("The ritual is one day away, through rough terrain, certain death" or "oh yeah you can weather the zombies no need to go out") it feels rude. Especially now that he's not admitting to any wrongdoing or anything. Have you asked something like "So what should I have done?", see if there's something he had in mind?
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Feb 8, 2017 17:44
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Yeah it sounds like you need some actual feedback from the DM. This needs to be a pretty transparent discussion, as it sounds like you both are not playing by the same rules. I greatly dislike how this was handled by the DM, but as long you both are on the same page about what what you both expect and what your character/the party should have done in the end it should be better for the future.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:02
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I'm a new DM (new to D&D entirely, actually) and just finished my first adventure getting my players from 1-3. Agent355, I'm sorry for what you went through, but thank you for posting about it as it is a good lesson about the pitfalls of taking rules too literally and ruining someone's fun. I will take it to heart.SettingSun posted:I'm curious to know how Agent's DM intended for the adventure to go. It is clearly wrong to just hole up forever, but 4 low level PCs versus a legendary vampire is actual suicide. The logical leap of utilizing a rogue to stealthily disrupt the ritual makes a lot of sense. The vampire finding him anyway and murdering him seems like a punishment for a neat idea. Not only that, but Agent even succeeded in his goal is disrupting the ritual, but nothing happened! To me that's the worst thing of all. At some point you have to step back and realize that rewarding players for a neat idea is the right thing to do.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:10
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Vampire gm blows, sorry bud.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:16
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 The first few sentences are his explanation for why the vampire didn't just use his passive perception and walk right on past the invisible stealth specialist. I find myself less than sympathetic with 'I made a mistake and rolled and then got too excited at the chance of killing you'. This is the most I've gotten from him so far. he still has not actually admitted to any wrong doing but at least he gave a bit of his thought process. I'm still waiting for him to confirm or deny his willingness to negotiate some sort of resurrection/deus ex machina scenario. Also yes, ultimately when he started attacking invisible me instead of a nearby party member (and he never rolled to find me despite me using hide as a cunning action the turn before) it was literally because my character is more fun/developed and engaging to the party than the other guy. Way to encourage me to roll up a new dude and put the same amount of effort into characterization that I did with this one.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:31
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So there was another player nearby, the DM tried to make an interesting scene, and repeatedly tried to offer you outs. A) stop lying if you're gonna derail the thread with your sob story; b) stop playing lovely games like 5e.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:42
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Arivia posted:So there was another player nearby, the DM tried to make an interesting scene, and repeatedly tried to offer you outs. A) stop lying if you're gonna derail the thread with your sob story; b) stop playing lovely games like 5e. You having a bad day, friend?
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Feb 8, 2017 18:45
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My 4 party members were in the mansion, I died 40 ft outside the mansion. The last turn or two had the party taking actions to try and help. The start of the encounter was more like 200 ft away from the mansion and they were out of range of helping.
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Feb 8, 2017 18:46
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Arivia posted:So there was another player nearby, the DM tried to make an interesting scene, and repeatedly tried to offer you outs. A) stop lying if you're gonna derail the thread with your sob story; b) stop playing lovely games like 5e. Must not touch the poop...
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Feb 8, 2017 18:54
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Arivia posted:So there was another player nearby, the DM tried to make an interesting scene, and repeatedly tried to offer you outs. A) stop lying if you're gonna derail the thread with your sob story; b) stop playing lovely games like 5e. What were the outs?
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Feb 8, 2017 18:57
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600 poasts in two weeks? what was the fight about?
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Feb 8, 2017 18:58
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mango sentinel posted:What were the outs? Last line of the first message. There was some sort of deus ex machina attempted, and then something else beyond that in the second message. Sometimes you just can't help stupid players. And all the whining about rules this, rules that is undercut by 5e being a terrible, inconsistent game where "ask your DM" is literally all that matters.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:04
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I honestly don't know what 'deus ex machina didn't work' is referring to. The ritual I failed to interrupt maybe? There was no obvious out for me at the time.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:05
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Agent355 posted:My 4 party members were in the mansion, I died 40 ft outside the mansion. The last turn or two had the party taking actions to try and help. The start of the encounter was more like 200 ft away from the mansion and they were out of range of helping. For clarification who is Adrian and what would "switching gears" have entailed? It sounds like by the time you were 40 feet from the manor the vampire had been actively chasing and attacking you, but the DM says his decision was to "put one of you in peril" so it sounds like he was closer than other party members at some point before the end? And what was the deus ex machina mentioned? Sorry bud, this sounds like a pretty big clusterfuck involving bad 5e rules and possibly bad interpretations of those rules from your DM. The legendary actions thing seems like a pretty blatant abuse of those rules though, like did the vampire even have awareness of what your party was doing when he was "reacting" to each of their turns? mango sentinel posted:What were the outs? Seems like Arivia is offering everyone the out of putting him on ignore right now. Sheesh...
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Feb 8, 2017 19:06
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Arivia posted:Last line of the first message. There was some sort of deus ex machina attempted A "deus ex machina" is literally the author (in this case the DM) doing something blatantly intrusive to "fix" the corner they've written themselves into. How can a deus ex machina not work (and more importantly how is it on the player to, I dunno, activate a deus ex machina)?
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Feb 8, 2017 19:10
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Guy A. Person posted:A "deus ex machina" is literally the author (in this case the DM) doing something blatantly intrusive to "fix" the corner they've written themselves into. How can a deus ex machina not work (and more importantly how is it on the player to, I dunno, activate a deus ex machina)? I have no idea. But again, you can never completely compensate for player stupidity. The aggrieved should probably talk to his DM more and then accept the result because lol, 5e. And by the way, if you were thinking you had some perfectly adoring non critical fan base of 5e on these forums, you're wrong. These threads have always been about mocking what a terrible game this is and the horrible people writing for it. Deal with it. Oh, and I'm a girl. Not a "he".
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Feb 8, 2017 19:15
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Guy A. Person posted:For clarification who is Adrian and what would "switching gears" have entailed? It sounds like by the time you were 40 feet from the manor the vampire had been actively chasing and attacking you, but the DM says his decision was to "put one of you in peril" so it sounds like he was closer than other party members at some point before the end? And what was the deus ex machina mentioned? The cleric of the party is Adrian and he left the manor to try and reach me, he was 15 ft closer to the manor and visible but the vampire elected to attack me instead (he could reach us both though I was closer). This being the turn before I finally got grappled and bit to death. I actually had a higher chance of surviving than the cleric did by virtue of being invisible and being able to slip away with some degree of ease if I didn't actually get grappled, but I did. I have no idea what the deus ex machina referred to. Maybe the fact that I didn't adequately disrupt the ritual night? As far as the legendary actions go the DM didn't just use as many as he could, but he still used more than he could have had only I been on the initiative roll. At the end when we were near the manor and people were hoping to think of something they could do, shooting the vamp with arrows, holding a rope over the edge of a balcony to assist in a climb check if I wanted to get back in that way, etc (ultimately they had no affect on the outcome anyway) the vampire started taking 3 legendary actions a round. He took 2 a round before then. Agent355 fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 19:17
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Dude. You keep changing your story. You hosed up. You died. Deal with it like a big boy and stop whining on the internet like that's going to get your favourite toy back.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:20
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Arivia posted:I have no idea. But again, you can never completely compensate for player stupidity. The aggrieved should probably talk to his DM more and then accept the result because lol, 5e. Lol I have no idea where you got this impression of me, I have been critical of 5e since its announcement and only really follow the thread for general updates on the state of D&D, I even talk about 5e's lovely rules in my other post! But I disagree that "you can never completely compensate for player stupidity" when you're using a deus ex machina. Unless the DM doesn't actually know what a deus ex machina is (again, it's when they blatantly change the rules to fix something, you can't "fail" at that) quote:Oh, and I'm a girl. Not a "he". This is legitimately gross of me to do and I apologize
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Feb 8, 2017 19:23
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Like a previous poster said, as a new DM, I found it useful to read to see a player's perspective on a character death and a good warning of some things to avoid.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:21
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Arivia posted:Dude. You keep changing your story. You hosed up. You died. Deal with it like a big boy and stop whining on the internet like that's going to get your favourite toy back. I really don't, why so cranky.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:23
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He could get his favourite toy back if the DM snapped his fingers, there's a bazillion ways to do it, DM is God and can make it happen. I was going to kill my party last night because my hockey team had a bad call against them in overtime but they still won in the shootout so the party got to live. DMs can do anything.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:25
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It's not "he", it's "That Guy".
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Feb 8, 2017 19:26
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Agent355 posted:The cleric of the party is Adrian and he left the manor to try and reach me, he was 15 ft closer to the manor and visible but the vampire elected to attack me instead (he could reach us both though I was closer). This being the turn before I finally got grappled and bit to death. I actually had a higher chance of surviving than the cleric did by virtue of being invisible and being able to slip away with some degree of ease if I didn't actually get grappled, but I did. It sounds like your retelling is changing quite a bit and your DM probably didn't screw you at all. There could have been a million reasons for the vampire to make that first active perception check - maybe the vampire had minions watching the door you came out of that you didn't know about, etc The legendary action stuff is kind of crappy but it's also a poorly written part of the system. If someone is trying to get into combat but then just doesn't do so it's not expected that the DM has to pull punches. And the ritual disruption thing could've been a wide amount of reasons it didn't work.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:25
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Guy A. Person posted:Lol I have no idea where you got this impression of me, I have been critical of 5e since its announcement and only really follow the thread for general updates on the state of D&D, I even talk about 5e's lovely rules in my other post! As a brand new player to 5e, where is your post? I'd like to read up on why 5e is bad. Mind you, I never played 4e either, but it sounded like it was really good to me. Also 3.5 (well, Pathfinder) are terrible imo.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:30
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User0015 posted:As a brand new player to 5e, where is your post? I'd like to read up on why 5e is bad. Oh no I meant the comment about "lovely 5e rules" from my post just now. I have posted a little in this thread about general D&D-isms, wizard vs fighter issues and the like, not full scale rules critiques, my experience is mostly in 3.5e as well (which it sounds like 5e willfully adopted a bunch of its problems from). I usually rely on Professor Cirno for that kind of stuff, he has some robust posts about the faulty mechanics of 5e.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:34
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mastershakeman posted:It sounds like your retelling is changing quite a bit and your DM probably didn't screw you at all. There could have been a million reasons for the vampire to make that first active perception check - maybe the vampire had minions watching the door you came out of that you didn't know about, etc I'm not really changing my story. It was a ~7 round long chase that started with me completely out of range of the party and ended with me far closer to them. The very first active percpetion check that started the whole thing was when I was pressed up against the wal letting the vampire walk past, I knew he was coming so he didn't surprise me and had been waiting for him. He still managed to see me despite a good stealth roll, invisibility, and me standing perfectly still. He was talking/mocking with the party when he stopped and started sniffing the air as the DM had made the roll and he found me. I'm more interested in getting honest feedback over how the thing plays out than having a bunch of people pat me on the back and tell me how right I am, so my intention isn't to change the story but it's hard to lay out exactly how a 90 minutes (ish) long encounter played out in detail. I think you're getting the part where I was near the mansion and my party was ineffectively trying to help confused with the part where I was running through a bunch of caves by myself and the vampire was getting extra legendary actions for my party doing things like casting 'protection from good and evil' on themselves 200 ft away in a mansion.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:36
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Oh hey now your party was doing things in the combat round while the vampire focused on you, they just weren't things that were directly helping you. AND your DM downgraded the number of actions the vampire was taking to give you a fighting chance. Think you lost on your own faults there. @Guy A. Person: Apology accepted.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:40
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Uhh, if the DM is prompting their party for actions and they're doing poo poo but the vampire gets to react even though they aren't even interacting with the combat encounter as it's happening that's 100% the DM's fault. What are they supposed to do? "I do nothing for fear of giving the omniscient god-vampire an edge in this cutscene."
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Feb 8, 2017 19:43
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The GM said in his own post that he thought Agent355 character was moving and then got too excited about killing the rogue to let it go lmao also Deus Ex Machina is literally "god says so", if it was an actual DEM then nothing Agent355 did would have had an impact on it, you can't "miss" a DEM. The god in this case just decided he wanted him to die. Like, gently caress, he could have just had the vamp take you hostage and get some drama going.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:45
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Arivia posted:Oh hey now your party was doing things in the combat round while the vampire focused on you, they just weren't things that were directly helping you. AND your DM downgraded the number of actions the vampire was taking to give you a fighting chance. Think you lost on your own faults there. This is wrong. Only Participants in a battle roll initiative. If the party has no idea that the rogue is in combat, much less are in any position to do anything about it, then they aren't in initiative. The Vampire should have had one Legendary Action and his Standard Action per round. e: if you want to track the movements of players not involved in the combat, you can simply resolve their actions at the end of a round rather than slotting them in initiative. For instance, if a player was by the window keeping watch in case the Rogue was in trouble, that's when you make the Perception roll to see the fight happening in the distance. Vengarr fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Feb 8, 2017 |
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Feb 8, 2017 19:47
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Kurieg posted:Uhh, if the DM is prompting their party for actions and they're doing poo poo but the vampire gets to react even though they aren't even interacting with the combat encounter as it's happening that's 100% the DM's fault. What are they supposed to do? "I do nothing for fear of giving the omniscient god-vampire an edge in this cutscene." How does the party know anything's going on in a combat scope? It's textbook metagaming, responding to things you know about as the player but your character doesn't. Letting that slide is fine, but it means the entirety of the other side of the encounter gets to act too. Every time we get new details they show that this wasn't that bad and the DM wasn't at fault. Someone just wanted to whine while painting themselves as a victim.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:50
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Vengarr posted:This is wrong. Only Participants in a battle roll initiative. If the party has no idea that the rogue is in combat, much less are in any position to do anything about it, then they aren't in initiative. The Vampire should have had one Legendary Action and his Standard Action per round. Yeah, it does sound like there was some metagaming from the players and also allowed by the DM. At 200ft away, did your party know you were in a chase in game?
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Feb 8, 2017 19:50
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Arivia posted:If you don't want a bad play experience stemming from unclear rules and bad house rules, then don't play 5e. Or don't complain about the game falling apart when it inevitably happens. Have you considered unbookmarking this thread? This isn't the game you're looking for.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:50
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Guy A. Person posted:Oh no I meant the comment about "lovely 5e rules" from my post just now. Ah gotcha. Are his mechanics posts in this thread or elsewhere? I wouldn't mind reading up on some stuff, just to keep an eye on "watch out for this and that" or any gotcha moments. I played Pathfinder and my two biggest complaints are that: It's incredibly, trivially easy to make a lovely character that is worthless and bad at everything, and martial characters are garbage vs. anyone that has the magic. One of our players was a master of making characters for Pathfinder, so when he rolled his gf's summoner, he min/maxed her so hard her pet was straight up better than our paladin, plus her actual character was better than her pet. I honestly felt bad for him, because his turns devolved to "I hit it and hope I hurt it a little". Meanwhile, her pet ignored all terrain, flew, burrowed, she could ride it, and it's multiple attacks a round would routinely reach 100+ in damage, ignoring any contribution she made. Pathfinder is fun if you want to grognard hard, but holy gently caress you need to hire a professional Pathfinder expert to make a character that doesn't suck. I'm hoping 5e doesn't have that kind of problem. But I'm curious about what problems it does have.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:53
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nelson posted:Have you considered unbookmarking this thread? This isn't the game you're looking for. Nah I like D&D in general. 5e is just the worst edition period. At least every other one honestly tried.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:55
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Arivia posted:How does the party know anything's going on in a combat scope? It's textbook metagaming, responding to things you know about as the player but your character doesn't. Letting that slide is fine, but it means the entirety of the other side of the encounter gets to act too. The DM added them to the initiative and asked them what they were doing. The DM asked them to metagame. I'm sorry that the setting that you love so much got married to a system that you absolutely despise but this isn't how you handle situations like this. You're basically blaming Agent for having the temerity for playing 5e with his friends rather than taking a moral high ground and berating them for their roleplaying choices.
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Feb 8, 2017 19:54
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