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I seem to remember that years ago, in this thread, the advice was mixed but tended toward "don't worry about it, but if you're not sure then go ahead and call first." Now it seems to be, almost unanimously, "worry about it! If you're not convinced then at least call first." Am I mistaken? If not, any reason for the shift in attitude? It's also kind of weird that how!! is the only one with what I remember being the older attitude. Safe and Secure! fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 8, 2013 18:54
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My advice is 100% "Don't worry about it." It just happens to be "Don't worry about it, wear a suit." A programming interview caliber suit costs ~$150 at Men's Wearhouse. Buy one, wear it, and never worry about this question again. If you find yourself interviewing for programming jobs where you really are expected to dress nicely, then you will be getting paid accordingly and you can afford to buy a nicer suit. To someone else's point earlier in the thread - you should own a suit anyway. Get a medium grey one and it will be appropriate for most social engagements that call for it. Edit: Wearing a suit to an interview has NOTHING to do with wearing a suit to work. When you interview you are selling YOU. You want the company to think you are a serious and dedicated professional who will help them to attain whatever their goals are. You want to convince them that you have a skill set they need, and you don't want to leave them with lingering questions about you. You wear a suit specifically so that you have one less thing to worry about in the interview, not because you somehow need it, or because the company will expect it of you if you work for them. If you feel compelled to ask "should I wear a suit?", then the answer is Yes. armorer fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 8, 2013 19:03
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Just in case anybody in this thread doesn't pay attention to red titles or know this guy, the best thing to do under all circumstances is to completely ignore anything in a post by how!!. Don't follow his advice. Don't even do the opposite of what he says. Don't engage him. His programming advice is bad enough, but now he's in here directly sabotaging new developers' chances to have good careers.biochemist posted:One time I thought "if they expect me to wear a suit I don't want to work there". And then I grew the gently caress up and wore a suit and got the kick-rear end job. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that anyone in this thread looking for interview advice isn't a Zuckerberg hoodie-and-flip-flops tier programmer yet. There's nothing wrong with acting like a professional, especially if they're throwing software engineering level salaries at you. I take a bit of an issue with the false dichotomy you're portraying here, but the sentiment is sound enough. A suit is not the only way to look like a professional; there are plenty of levels of professional business dress. But a requirement to dress more formally than you normally do should not stop you from taking a job that is otherwise a good fit for you. Especially if it's a first job in the industry. That's for everyday dress once you have the job. For the interview, yeah, default to a suit or at least ask, same as everyone else has been saying. If you get rejected because you wore a suit to a loving interview, do you really want to be working with a bunch of hipsters who can't appreciate how sharp a guy looks in a suit?
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Mar 8, 2013 19:14
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Che Delilas posted:Just in case anybody in this thread doesn't pay attention to red titles or know this guy, the best thing to do under all circumstances is to completely ignore anything in a post by how!!. Don't follow his advice. Don't even do the opposite of what he says. Don't engage him. His programming advice is bad enough, but now he's in here directly sabotaging new developers' chances to have good careers. I hate to cheer-lead but honestly how!!!!! is doing a drat good job trolling COC.
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Mar 8, 2013 19:22
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armorer posted:Wearing a suit to an interview has NOTHING to do with wearing a suit to work. When you interview you are selling YOU. You want the company to think you are a serious and dedicated professional who will help them to attain whatever their goals are. You want to convince them that you have a skill set they need, and you don't want to leave them with lingering questions about you. You wear a suit specifically so that you have one less thing to worry about in the interview, not because you somehow need it, or because the company will expect it of you if you work for them. If you feel compelled to ask "should I wear a suit?", then the answer is Yes. You should dress for the job you want. If you want to be a middle-manager dipshit, then by all mean wear a suit, practice your firm handshake, and memorize as many buzzwords as you can. If you want to be software developer dress like one. How does a software developer dress? Watch any conference video. Take note of what the speakers are wearing. The older people dress more formally, the younger people dress more informally. If you're 22 years old and you show up to an interview wearing a suit, you're going to look like a tool. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 8, 2013 19:51
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how!! posted:You should dress for the job you want. If you want to be a middle-manager dipshit, then by all mean wear a suit, practice your firm handshake, and memorize as many buzzwords as you can. If you want to be software developer dress like one. How does a software developer dress? Watch any conference video. Take note of what the speakers are wearing. The older people dress more formally, the younger people dress more informally. If you're 22 years old and you show up to an interview wearing a suit, you're going to look like a tool. How!! - How did you end up with this horrendous attitude? You're practically foaming at the mouth about these hypothetically terrible jobs that you will get if you wear a suit. Did you once wear a suit and find yourself suddenly a "middle-manager dipshit"? I am not going to bother arguing with you about proper dress code for an interview, because you make my point for me far better than I ever could. But seriously where do you get this from?
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Mar 8, 2013 20:10
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how!! posted:Most places I've interviews at, the employees don't wear suits to work.
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Mar 8, 2013 20:20
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how!! posted:If you're 22 years old and you show up to an interview wearing a suit, you're going to look like a tool. If you're 22 years old and you show up to an interview wearing a suit, you're going to look like someone who's serious about wanting a job. This is a good thing. It also changes as you move up the food chain. A junior dev might get a pass on being underdressed; they probably won't be talking to the CxO or Director of Foo during their interview, and they won't be in meetings with those folks. But as you get older and you're applying for senior dev / team lead positions, you probably will be talking to those folks. I'm not much for dressing up or formality, but I do it when it's appropriate. The only concession I haven't made is keeping my hair short... and trust me, I'm self-conscious about it when I'm on-site at a client.
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Mar 8, 2013 20:22
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Ithaqua posted:you're going to look like someone who's serious about wanting a job. I don't want a job, I want money. 
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Mar 8, 2013 20:33
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I basically read this thread only for how!!'s advice. Seriously though, no one is going to judge you for wearing a suit to an interview. I'm a jeans-and-tshirt developer, but even when I'm the one interviewing people I usually do dress up a slight bit; maybe jeans and a collared shirt. I sure as hell don't adversely judge people when they show up to my interview wearing a suit. If people here make it to a second round, they all interview with our VP and if you show up to that interview with how!!'s advice, he'll probably call you out on it and we'll laugh about it as a team later.
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Mar 8, 2013 20:43
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Ithaqua posted:If you're 22 years old and you show up to an interview wearing a suit, you're going to look like someone who's serious about wanting a job. This is a good thing. Why is that person "serious about wanting a job"? Because no one else will hire them because of their inferior skills? So instead of getting better at programming, their approach is to have a firm handshake and expensive brooks brothers suit. Then people like you get impressed and hire them. Seriously, if you're letting anything other than programming skills impress you during the interview process, then your company is probably full of incompetent morons.
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Mar 8, 2013 20:44
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how!! posted:Why is that person "serious about wanting a job"? Because no one else will hire them because of their inferior skills? So instead of getting better at programming, their approach is to have a firm handshake and expensive brooks brothers suit. Then people like you get impressed and hire them. Seriously, if you're letting anything other than programming skills impress you during the interview process, then your company is probably full of incompetent morons. You see, we live in this thing called a society and there are societal expectations about dressing up for interviews that have bases in fundamental primate behavior. As much as you may wish otherwise, if you show up in a t-shirt and jeans to a job interview you are showing a fundamental lack of knowledge about society. What other problems might someone with a gaping hole in their knowledge about the world around them have?
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Mar 8, 2013 20:52
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how!! posted:Why is that person "serious about wanting a job"? Because no one else will hire them because of their inferior skills? So instead of getting better at programming, their approach is to have a firm handshake and expensive brooks brothers suit. Then people like you get impressed and hire them. Seriously, if you're letting anything other than programming skills impress you during the interview process, then your company is probably full of incompetent morons. Actually, there are tons of things that have an effect on your decision-making, even when you think they don't. Appearance is one of those.
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Mar 8, 2013 20:52
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how!! posted:Why is that person "serious about wanting a job"? Because no one else will hire them because of their inferior skills? So instead of getting better at programming, their approach is to have a firm handshake and expensive brooks brothers suit. Then people like you get impressed and hire them. Seriously, if you're letting anything other than programming skills impress you during the interview process, then your company is probably full of incompetent morons. If you come into an interview looking like a hobo, that's the *first* thing I notice about you. You haven't even had a chance to impress me with your amaaazing programming skills yet and you're already in the hole! Also, programming skills are only one thing I look at in interviews. Communication, past experience, conflict resolution skills, etc are all things I consider. I guarantee you I don't work for a company full of incompetent morons. Daremyth fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Mar 8, 2013 |
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Mar 8, 2013 20:58
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Daremyth posted:I basically read this thread only for how!!'s advice. I was really hoping that he would answer my question regarding the origins of his incredible attitude. Unfortunately he decided to just make another How!! post where he quotes someone rational and then vomits some insanity up afterwards. To people reading this thread because you want a programming job. If you have an attitude towards programming like How!! does, it will be evident to a competent interviewer. That attitude screams "I am hard to work with" and may lose you the job, regardless of how stellar a programmer you are. Bringing someone onto your team with that much vitriol will tear your team apart.
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Mar 8, 2013 21:03
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And for the record, in many organizations, programmers do interact with customers. The ones who can do it well are rather valuable.
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Mar 8, 2013 21:23
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how!! posted:Why is that person "serious about wanting a job"? Because no one else will hire them because of their inferior skills? So instead of getting better at programming, their approach is to have a firm handshake and expensive brooks brothers suit. Then people like you get impressed and hire them. Seriously, if you're letting anything other than programming skills impress you during the interview process, then your company is probably full of incompetent morons.  Social skills and programming skills are different things. Some people have both. You have neither.
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Mar 8, 2013 21:50
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I think anyone who is at a point in their career to really benefit from this thread has many more important things to worry about doing in an interview than overdressing. Just ask. I only default to a shirt and slacks now because that was the answer I got every time I asked.how!! posted:deliciously ironic venom for people who make up for lack of programming ability with mounds of bullshit It's common for non-technical staff to weigh in during an interview, people who may not be able to assess you purely on your technical merits. This is actually a good thing, because programming ability isn't the only factor that will determine your success/happiness in a company or how good of a fit you are for a particular position. Remember that you're entering their world, not the other way around. White-collar traditions and protocols are arbitrary and sometimes downright weird, but they serve the purpose of helping people with vastly different backgrounds and personalities cooperate. Selectively rejecting them because you think your job is exempt is plain rear end-backwards, and if an interviewer gets even a whiff of this sentiment from you then you've probably hosed yourself. MUCH more often than not the people you'll be trying to make a good impression on respond positively to familiarity, nice clothes, and good grooming. Swallow your inane pride and set yourself up for success. Zhentar posted:And for the record, in many organizations, programmers do interact with customers. The ones who can do it well are rather valuable. This is very true. I interact with our 3 largest clients and many local customers on a regular basis. I'd go so far as to say that as you climb the ladder as a programmer, it gets harder and harder to find jobs at your level without being able to appear/conduct yourself more and more professionally. Kind of like any other job!
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Mar 8, 2013 21:53
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armorer posted:I was really hoping that he would answer my question regarding the origins of his incredible attitude. Unfortunately he decided to just make another How!! post where he quotes someone rational and then vomits some insanity up afterwards. Its based on my experience. I've interviewed at a few companies where tie was required day-to-day. One of those companies had each employee sitting at a cubicle editing javascript code through a web-based CMS. The interviewer told me "we want to move to source control at some point". That company was more focused on keeping their employees "in line", than they were building software. Working at such a place is a dead end job. The last interview I did was a skype call with the CEO of a startup. What was the CEO wearing? I don't remember, because I wasn't thinking about such things, but I am positive it wasn't a suit and tie. I know I wasn't wearing one either. He had software that needed to get built, and I have the ability to build software. That was all that mattered. The higher you climb up the "ladder of life", the less your appearance matters, at least when it comes to software development. This is a t-shirt and jeans industry. If you are looked down upon for wearing regular clothes, the company that is more focused on hiring people who conform rather than people think creatively. If you're the kind of person who needs a boss to tell you what to do, then by all means wear a suit and tie to every job interview you have. You'll get looked down upon the companies that care about building innovative software. But the companies that love hierarchy and endless politics and busy-work will love you.
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Mar 8, 2013 22:33
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Rant time: I have trouble understanding this fear programmers have about suits, what's so bad about them? It's just clothing but somehow many people seem to consider you lesser of a programmer if you wear one of those. I actually have a good suit, and it's by far the most comfortable piece of clothing I own. I'd love to wear it to work but each time I do I get weird looks from my colleagues. I was actually pulled aside once by my boss and told that I was making others uncomfortable (I don't know whether he just pulled that out of his rear end or someone really complained). I mean, seriously? Wasn't the whole point of this hobo software developer movement to ignore appearances and instead focus on skills? Gahhhhh  .
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Mar 8, 2013 22:56
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Alright so I've gotten a ton of calls about my resume, some great, some mediocre. Nothing from the company with the AwkwardAsFuckCEO yet, but I only spoke to the dev on Tuesday. What one recruiter mentioned is that while he's looking for something that would actually suit me (some kind of living wage  ) he wanted to get me to bite on a 10/hr job that was only a few hours a week so I could "learn some .NET" I tried as politely as I could to say "I need to actually pay bills, man." and he didn't seem too offended. Do recruiters just have to try to sell these terrible jobs, or was he thinking "oh he's in school so he doesn't really care about the money."? If I get more than one offer, what's the best way to stall while I think about it or see who offers the most? When is a good time to send another email to that first place?
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Mar 8, 2013 22:58
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IMlemon posted:Rant time: If you feel comfortable in suits then by all means wear a suit. The problem is when people wear them just because they feel like they are "supposed to", or whatever. I can tell the difference immediately between a Tom Haverford and someone wearing a suit because someone else made them.
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Mar 8, 2013 23:03
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So you people seriously wear suits to interviews? Even when I worked in Boston, the only people that showed up to interviews wearing suits were unqualified old guys. Everybody else would dress "nicely", as in, khakis or corduroys or jeans and a leather jacket or button-down shirt or sweater or flannel-shirt-with-pocket-protector. Now here in the SF Bay Area, things are different. Everybody wears suits to work every day, so wearing a suit to an interview is typical.
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Mar 8, 2013 23:19
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shrughes posted:So you people seriously wear suits to interviews? Even when I worked in Boston, the only people that showed up to interviews wearing suits were unqualified old guys. Everybody else would dress "nicely", as in, khakis or corduroys or jeans and a leather jacket or button-down shirt or sweater or flannel-shirt-with-pocket-protector. Now here in the SF Bay Area, things are different. Everybody wears suits to work every day, so wearing a suit to an interview is typical.
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Mar 8, 2013 23:36
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shrughes posted:So you people seriously wear suits to interviews? Even when I worked in Boston, the only people that showed up to interviews wearing suits were unqualified old guys. Everybody else would dress "nicely", as in, khakis or corduroys or jeans and a leather jacket or button-down shirt or sweater or flannel-shirt-with-pocket-protector. Now here in the SF Bay Area, things are different. Everybody wears suits to work every day, so wearing a suit to an interview is typical. I'm a Junior at a University. I'm also 28. It doesn't quite feel grown up to me. Then again, I haven't been a dev for long, so I don't really get the 'vibe' that the industry has right now. It also just feels a lot better to wear a suit than just a polo and some drat slacks. I also like the opportunity actually dress nice, since "nice" is basically a cheeto stain away from a retail uniform. Maybe I'll try the polo thing next time out.
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Mar 8, 2013 23:55
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how!! posted:If you want to be a middle-manager dipshit, then by all mean wear a suit, practice your firm handshake, and memorize as many buzzwords as you can. As for dressing up for an interview, you don't dress up for the job you want, or the career you aspire towards, and similarly you shouldn't dress (down) the way you would on a regular work day or for the sake of projecting an unwavering "be yourself" persona. You dress up because you are making a first impression. Not only that, you are going into a business dealing with someone who is a relative stranger. Regardless of anyone's disposition of company culture, you still want to signal that you can be professional, you can navigate formalities, and you can plan ahead for an important meeting. This isn't under some misguided manipulation thinking you're fooling someone's subconscious to like you more. It's a way of showing instead of telling, and if the interviewer isn't garbage at their job they'll pick up on the important part (which isn't "boy, they look sharp") and won't get bent out of shape if the company culture is super casual, because this here is an important meeting not just a day at the office. Certainly that doesn't mean if you don't wear a suit (or equivalent business formal garb for ladies) then you've done something wrong. Context is always going to be important. But a policy of "don't dress up unless they tell you to" is only going to do more harm than good to the opportunities you encounter in your career.
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Mar 9, 2013 00:10
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how!! posted:Its based on my experience. I've interviewed at a few companies where tie was required day-to-day. One of those companies had each employee sitting at a cubicle editing javascript code through a web-based CMS. The interviewer told me "we want to move to source control at some point". That company was more focused on keeping their employees "in line", than they were building software. Working at such a place is a dead end job. Thanks - these first two paragraphs are totally legit. The first place sounds really crappy, the second was a situation where you definitely didn't need to be in a suit. You clearly have an unduly bad impression of suits though. Your third and fourth paragraphs bring back that weird "suits inherently mean you are a fake douchebag" idea you seem to be so set on. I think you are missing the point that the argument for wearing a suit is so you have one less thing to worry about while interviewing. Some places will care, some places won't. Being in a suit for an interview is one of those generally accepting things and it is "safe" for all programming interviews.
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Mar 9, 2013 00:32
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When I think "interviewer takes off points for not wearing suit", I also think "this place is going to expect me to work a lot more than forty hours a week." Is this mental association wrong?
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Mar 9, 2013 00:49
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Safe and Secure! posted:When I think "interviewer takes off points for not wearing suit", I also think "this place is going to expect me to work a lot more than forty hours a week." Is this mental association wrong? Probably. Places like that tend to be established businesses where most of the folks are clock-punchers and don't do unpaid overtime. Small "jeans and hawaiian shirt" start-ups are way more likely to expect you to work 90 hours a week to get a product out the door.
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Mar 9, 2013 00:52
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Safe and Secure! posted:When I think "interviewer takes off points for not wearing suit", I also think "this place is going to expect me to work a lot more than forty hours a week." Is this mental association wrong? I'm more worried about the companies where recruiters send you e-mails at 2:30 in the morning.
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Mar 9, 2013 00:53
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When I think "interviewer takes off points for not wearing suit", I tend to associate that with "my potential coworkers are mentally retarded". (Of course they'd also be retarded if they took points off for wearing a suit. But it's certainly reasonable to expect anybody that wears a suit to the interview to do poorly, since everybody that has worn a suit has done poorly.)
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Mar 9, 2013 00:54
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shrughes posted:When I think "interviewer takes off points for not wearing suit", I tend to associate that with "my potential coworkers are mentally retarded". (Of course they'd also be retarded if they took points off for wearing a suit. But it's certainly reasonable to expect anybody that wears a suit to the interview to do poorly, since everybody that has worn a suit has done poorly.) This may be true but I think the advice to just wear a suit is more based on the fact that even an ill fitting suit will be neutral at worst whereas if you show up in a huge anime shirt, it might not go over so well. Subconscious judgements matter if your abilities are not spectacular and especially if another candidate and you are very close.
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Mar 9, 2013 01:00
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shrughes posted:Now here in the SF Bay Area, things are different. Everybody wears suits to work every day, so wearing a suit to an interview is typical.  Are you in some sort of bizzaro universe or something?
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Mar 9, 2013 01:14
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Wonder how many people ITT don't like suits because they are fat?
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Mar 9, 2013 01:16
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pigdog posted:Wonder how many people ITT don't like suits because they are fat?
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Mar 9, 2013 01:23
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Plorkyeran posted:
I was joking. Nobody shows up in a suit in the Bay Area (except some senior in college that was just finishing/finished with William & Mary).
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Mar 9, 2013 01:44
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shrughes posted:I was joking. Nobody shows up in a suit in the Bay Area (except some senior in college that was just finishing/finished with William & Mary). Yeah I think this suit talk is very geographically dependent. I'm in the Bay Area, and the only time I dressed up for an interview with slacks and a dress shirt I was way over dressed and didn't get the job (bummed about it at the time, but now I realize that place would have been terrible). After that I just asked the recruiter, and every other place I interviewed were pretty adamant that slacks + dress shirt was overkill. I just wore jeans and a nice collared shirt for all my interviews after that and ended up getting hired at an awesome job doing something I enjoy, and I get to wear jeans and a hoodie every day. If you are interviewing for a financial firm or something than I would say dress up, but if you are on the West Coast it's most likely going to be too much. It's really not as big a deal as some people are making it out to be in this thread, but a good rule of thumb is to just ask the recruiter. It's not a weird question to have and eliminates all worry about your appearance.
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Mar 9, 2013 02:23
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lmao zebong posted:Yeah I think this suit talk is very geographically dependent. I'm in the Bay Area, and the only time I dressed up for an interview with slacks and a dress shirt I was way over dressed and didn't get the job (bummed about it at the time, but now I realize that place would have been terrible). After that I just asked the recruiter, and every other place I interviewed were pretty adamant that slacks + dress shirt was overkill. I just wore jeans and a nice collared shirt for all my interviews after that and ended up getting hired at an awesome job doing something I enjoy, and I get to wear jeans and a hoodie every day. If you are interviewing for a financial firm or something than I would say dress up, but if you are on the West Coast it's most likely going to be too much. Semi-amusing anecdote time: I went on-site at a client, a major financial institution, and I wore a suit just out of reflex. For most clients, I'll go a step down, but in this case, my reaction was "Wow, they're our client? gently caress. I'm wearing a suit." The guy I met with laughed and said "Wow, you're really overdressed!" Most of the folks I saw walking into the place while I was waiting in the lobby were wearing business casual. So yeah, "ask HR/the hiring manager/the recruiter when setting up the in-person interview" x1000. That's all that really needs to be said on the subject.
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Mar 9, 2013 02:50
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Newbie Programming Interviews/Get a Job Megathread: How do wear or not wear suit?
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Mar 9, 2013 02:50
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Ithaqua posted:Semi-amusing anecdote time: Also slacks/dress shirt/dress shoes is a pretty happy medium that I use because every time I've had to wear a suit and do actual development discussion stuff I ended up taking the jacket off anyway. I don't think most places will snort and say "feh, didn't wear a coat and tie so PASS" if you do well otherwise. e: I can't decide whether to vote this thread a 1 and hope it gets gassed, or vote a 5 and hope for goldmine
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Mar 9, 2013 02:55
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