Scottish Politics and the Independence Referendum: Why is Salmond swimming backwards?

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Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

Tommy: Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish?
Renton: It's shite being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the loving Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are colonized by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized by. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a shite state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make any loving difference! - Trainspotting, 1996

The eyes of the world are on Scotland. After years of simmering tension and petty political conflict, the people of the country have risen up and demanded that the whole of the population considers an important question. Debates are raging throughout pubs, across the Internet, splitting apart families and old friends: should Scotland have an independent DnD politics thread? Oh, and there's a referendum about some obscure constitutional matter coming up in September, that might come up as well from time to time I guess.

Scotland? Is that in England?

Wikipedia posted:

Scotland (/ˈskɒt.lənd/; Scots: [ˈskɔt.lənd]; Scottish Gaelic: Alba [ˈal̪ˠapə] (listen)) is a country that is part of the United Kingdom. Occupying the northern third of the island of Great Britain, Scotland shares a border with England to the south, and is otherwise surrounded by the Atlantic Ocean; with the North Sea to the east, and the North Channel and Irish Sea to the south-west. In addition to the mainland, the country is made up of more than 790 islands, including the Northern Isles and the Hebrides.

Population: 5,327,700 (estimated)
Area: 78,387 km�
Capital: Edinburgh
Largest City: Glasgow

The exact setup of the British Isles or the United Kingdom or Britain gets fairly complicated the more you look into it, especially as some Scots now take being called British as a political statement as much as a geographical one, but so long as you understand that Scotland isn't a part of or the same thing as England - yes, even despite England being historically used as a common name for the whole of the UK in many countries - you should be okay. Probably. Keep this handy diagram in your pocket just in case.

Wait, Scotland has politics?

Kind of. While Scotland is generally called a country (please let's not have this debate here), it isn't actually a fully independent nation. At least, not at the moment, but we'll get on to that. What Scotland does have, as well as the 59 MPs it elects to Westminster and the usual local councils, is a devolved parliament of it's own, and has since 1999. The parliament is placed in Holyrood in Edinburgh, situated directly between the official residence of the Queen and a pleasant science museum for the kids.

The Scottish Parliament, or Holyrood as it is generally called for short, is in charge of a variety of matters that have been handed down to it from London, such as health and education. However, not all powers have been devolved to Holyrood, such as foreign policy, immigration, social security (for the most part) and - possibly most importantly - the amount of money that the Scottish Government gets to spend. Holyrood runs under a semi-proportional system and has elections every four to five years.

The political parties in Scotland are generally the same as those in the rest of the country, except with the word "Scottish" in front. The Scottish versions of the Westminster parties have varying levels of autonomy from their English/Welsh equivalents (for example, the Scottish Green party is a completely separate organisation), but generally work closely with their colleagues in the rest of the country. Particularly in the members they elect to Westminster which everyone basically thinks of as members of the same parties and basically are. There is one notable exception, which anyone well-versed in regional politics will have figured out by now: the Scottish National Party, who only run in Scotland and have been agitating for independence in various forms since 1934 (though they've only been really taken seriously since at least after 1967). The rise of the SNP and support in independence has been cited as a main factor in Holyrood being established, as a kind of compromise that would, in the words of the Shadow Secretary of State in 1995, "kill Nationalism stone dead". Yeah, about that...

So you guys are having a vote or something, right?

On the 18 of September 2014, the people of Scotland will vote in a referendum on Scottish independence. The question will be "Should Scotland be an independent country?" with two answers available: Yes and No.

(I should mention here I'm firmly on the Yes side, but I'm going to try to be moderately balanced during this OP. Feel free to suggest corrections, I'm going to try to keep this updated.)

How did that happen?

There's a great deal of history here which I won't go into, if you really want to get historical about it you can go as far back as 19 79, or 1707, or 1603, or AD 122, or hundreds of millions of years ago when the prehistoric landmass of Laurentia combined with Avalonia and immediately started complaining about its banknotes not being accepted south of the fault line.

The political background of independence has been explained much better by Reveilled in the OP of the previous thread, so I'm going to shamelessly quote from that at length:

Reveilled posted:

Background on the Scottish Parliament

The question of Home Rule for Scotland has been an issue in the relationship between Scotland and the central government in Westminster ever since the Kilbrandon Report in 1973 recommended a devolved Scottish assembly be given control over the running of Scottish affairs. One of the events which spurred the creation of this commission was a victory by the Scottish National Party in the 1967 by-election in Hamilton, their first victory at the national level in a "normal" election. Support for the Nationalists has fluctuated since that time, but until the beginning of the 21st century and the rise of reactionary and fascist parties such as UKIP and the BNP, they generally received the fourth largest share of the vote nationally despite running candidates only in a part of the United Kingdom which held about 10% of the population. In 1979, a referendum was held to ask whether scotland ought to have a devolved assembly to manage Scottish affairs. This assembly would not have any powers of taxation independent of the Westminister government and would be restricted in how it was allowed to allocate its funds. In a fashion that may seem like retrospective deja vu to anyone who saw the "[this baby] needs life-saving treatment, not an alternative voting system" adverts of the recent alternative vote referendum in the UK, the debate was therefore steered to the question of whether this assembly would just be a toothless waste of taxpayer money that could be used to better ends. Despite this, the referendum was a narrow victory for the "yes" campaign, with 51% of voters supporting devolution, with a turnout of 63%. However, one clause in the referendum legislation stated that a "yes" vote would be valid only if 40% of all eligible voters voted yes, and because this criteria was not met, devolution was not enacted. The SNP withdrew support from the minority Labour government (it was a Labour MP that inserted the clause regarding eligible voters), and a few weeks later a vote of no confidence toppled the Labour government, leading to an election and 18 years of Conservative government.

In 1997 the first Labour government in almost 20 years was elected, and one of their key election promises in Scotland was the creation of a Scottish Parliament to give Scots some level of control over their own affairs. After a successful referendum on the issue, the Scottish Parliament was created and elections were held.

SNP Majority Government

The SNP had been the opposition part upon the creation of the parliament, which was essentially designed to create a roughly proportional house with the consequent effect of creating coalition government due to the four-way split in Scotland between Labour, the SNP, the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. For the first two terms of the Parliament the government consisted of a Labour/Liberal coalition, which was defeated by the SNP in 2007 which ran a minority government for four years. In the meantime, the Labour government down south was wavering and losing legitimacy, and after the Conservatives won power in general election in 2010 and began to govern with Liberal Democrat support, there was a significant shift in the electoral dynamics of Scotland. In 2011, the SNP won a landslide victory in the face of a weak and divided opposition, a collapse in the Lib Dem vote, and--allegedly--a deal between the SNP and News International which led to endorsements for the SNP from the Scottish Sun and favourable press in other NI media.

The SNP, in the face of their victory, now intend to hold a referendum on Independence in 2014.

Why does Scotland want independence?

It's a bit simplistic to boil it down to "We hate the Tories", but as a symbol of the divide between Scotland and England it is a functional reason. Scotland is significantly to the left of England, and the Conservative party (who are commonly referred to as "the Tories", which was what their party was called up until the early 19th century) has very minimal support north of the border--specifically, of the conservative party's 306 MPs, only one holds a scottish seat, the most they've ever held in Scotland since their wipeout in the 1997 general election. To emphasise this point, have a look at the map below, of the last general election:

Look at that sea of blue, stopped entirely at the red belt across central Scotland. That most northerly blue constituency is Galloway and Upper Nithsdale, and that's the only conservative seat in Scotland. As such, many people feel a government by the Conservatives does not represent them, and that the sort of country they want to live in cannot be created while they are shackled to Tory Middle England.

There's also a cultural factor. Scotland and England are old enemies in a manner which is mostly expressed innocuously these days--most commonly in the manner of supporting the opposition whenever an English sporting team is competing against someone--but the upshot of that is that while there are certainly plenty of people in Scotland who see themselves as British, nobody sees themself as English and there's a long-standing low level grievance that the English (and international) media tend to see those as being the same thing. It's a minor issue, but nationalist feeling can swell up when our towns are decorated in English flags by "patriotic" corportations seeking to advertise how much they love England whenever England qualifies for a major tournament like the World Cup. It's very easy to overstate how important this is, but it does have an importance, which is why Scotland has an independence movement and the North of England doesn't.

The way the two come together is that there's a feeling that a conservative government, largely elected by rural englanders and rich suburbanites from the South East, will govern purely in the interests of England in general and South East England in particular. This is a feeling that is pervasive throughout Scotland, not even just on the part of those who seek Independence, and is arguably a larger part of the reason for the victory of the SNP than an actual majority of Scots suddenly turning in favour of independence outright.

I want to expand on this a little and discuss about the major political parties in the UK. Despite Scotland being generally more left wing, we're not talking Venezuela or Cuba here. There certainly is that old strain of hard left socialism running through Scotland, but the SNP are not radical socialists. In fact, one recent article in the Guardian described them as the "last British party", arguing that the other three major parties had essentially taken on American neo-liberal ideals while the SNP had essentially remained true to the postwar consensus of Social Democracy. That's not an analysis I think is fully true (as it downplays the role of Thatcherism in forcing Labour and the Lib Dems to the right, and also downplays some of the neoliberal elements of the SNP), but it does get to the core of the issue, which is that the people of Scotland in general trend more towards wanting Social Democracy at a minimum. This is what parties such as Labour used to represent, and in the years prior to the most recent general election were what the Scottish Liberal Democrats implied they represented too. But the local branches of these parties are essentially beholden to their central offices in England, such that Scottish voters who elected the previous labour government got top level tax reductions and illegal wars, while Lib Dem voters who elected a Liberal MP this time around found that they had indirectly helped the Tories into power. Couple that with the massively ineffectual Ed Milliband and his complete unwillingness or inability to provide a coherent left-wing narrative as an alternative to the current dominant austerity-focused one, and this appears to have been the breaking point for a large number of people leading to the SNP. Expanding on the map above, we can compare the Scottish election results in 2007 against the ones in 2011, one year after the liberal-conservative government came in and Scotland went to the polls. This was the result:

You can see the drop in support for the three major UK-wide parties very clearly here, though it must be mentioned that they picked up a lot of regional seats in the proportional top up.

There are two big issues around the whole thing. There's the question of whether Scotland can survive as an independent state on its own, and then there's the question of how the referendum ought to be structured.

Luckily, thank Christ, that second very tedious question has been settled (unless some guy from UKIP gets his way) and we can all focus on the important question of ~~whether Coohoolin is allowed to type in phonetic Scots when he's drunk~~ which governmental system best represents the interests of Scots and the world at large. Onto the debate!

First, a look at the organisations involved, because arguing about ideas gets really dull and arguing about people is a lot more exciting.

THE AYES

Yes Scotland

Yes Scotland is the all-party and no-party campaign for a Yes vote in the referendum on Scottish independence to be held on 18 September, 2014.
The official campaign for a Yes vote in the referendum, Yes Scotland was launched in May 2012. It brings together the SNP, the Scottish Greens, the Socialist Party, and a number of other organisations and individuals with no party affiliation. Because all the parties on the No side are much more experienced in attacking the SNP rather than discussing actual ideas, it's a common tactic to claim this campaign is entirely run by the SNP and everyone else is some kind of Nat in disguise or an unwitting stooge of theirs. The SNP is a large part of the campaign, but the extent to which they dominate its running is open for debate and will likely be endlessly argued over in the pages to follow.

Yes Scotland is run by Blair Jenkins and Dennis Canavan, who 90% of the country hadn't heard of before the campaign started and maybe a couple more people would be able to recognise today.

The Scottish National Party

A left leaning nationalist party advocating secession from the United Kingdom.
The Scottish National Party was formed in 1934, and it's origins stretch five years or so before that, but it was fairly easy to ignore until the 60s, when it started winning the odd by-election to Westminster. The SNP has been in government in Holyrood since 2007, first as a minority government and then gaining a majority in 2011 (albeit on 45% of the vote, but that's still better representation than First Past the Post gives you in Westminster). However, not everyone voting for them is necessarily in favour of independence - the SNP's main focus during the campaign was their record in government, which has been largely well-received. The SNP party line is for social democracy, however the party themselves is a fairly broad church united mainly by their desire for Scotland to be an independent country. There has been some speculation that after a Yes vote the party may find itself splitting up to some extent, or find many of its members leaving for other parties in Holyrood due to their one uniting issue being resolved. Despite the word "National" in its name inviting some unfortunate comparisons, the SNP is quick to point out that it's nationalism is based on civic rather than ethnic grounds, and is one of the few parties with the word "national" in the name that is proposing an increase in immigration.

The SNP is headed by Alex Salmond, a figure who inspires a wide range of emotional reaction broadly in line with the person's views on independence. As the leader of the SNP for several years, and a prominent figure in it for decades before, Salmond has become something of a figurehead for the very idea of independence, to the point where Yes Scotland has to have a specific bullet point on its website addressing that a vote for independence is not in fact a vote for Salmond personally to lead the country for ever and always.

The Scottish Greens

Working to make Scotland a better place. Founded 1990, been at Holyrood since the start. Join today.
The Green party fulfil the usual purpose of Green parties in other democracies, that is providing a release valve for the lefty student/environmentalist vote and also for having a combination of the least-worst policies with never having a snowball's chance in hell of forming a government themselves. If you want to have some fun whenever the Greens come up, take a drink every time someone says "I like most of their policies except their opposition to nuclear power", you'll be dead within a page. The Greens have their own vision for independence, favouring an independent currency for example.

The Scottish Socialist Party
A united front of members of the former Scottish Militant Labour and other left forces.
The Socialist Party is a fringe group at the moment, but it used to be a bit less of one, gaining a whole 6 seats in 2003. It then lost all six seats in 2007, having basically imploded over an extended skirmish involving the News of the World and a perjury trial which remains controversial to this day. Basically, if you want to ruin the evening for a group of leftists in Scotland, just jump in and shout "Tommy Sheridan!" and watch as everybody in the room tears each other to pieces. The reason I've included them here rather than lumping them in with RIC is that they are actually an official part of Yes Scotland, though you have to squint.

A Whole Bunch of Other Groups

There is a sizeable bottom-up element to the Yes Campaign, meaning that even if Yes Scotland were to crumble into the ground then there would still be several organisations carrying on the campaigning and arguing on facebook right up until election day. Whether they're actually helping their side or not God knows but maybe we shouldn't be leaving all the politics to politicians anyway. As with any campaign there are many groups within Yes Scotland itself, which I'll try not to include in this list, but among the other groups are:

Radical Independence Campaign (RIC) - Possibly the most united the left in Scotland has been for a long time, RIC is a rare movement of the left that hasn't yet been entirely taken over by the SWP as far as I can tell. They have their own vision for an independent Scotland, and are presenting this to the people through conferences, snappy slogans and posters about how much they hate the Tories stuck on empty shopfronts.
National Collective - Artists and Creatives for Scottish Independence. The "creatives" of Scotland seem to be firmly skewed towards Yes. Depending on who you ask this is either because artists have a unique capacity for hope and kindness to all of Earth's children, or because artists are a bunch of naive children who need to grow up, join the real world and get a proper job in finance or possibly the sciences. They got publicity for getting threatened with legal action for writing an article on one of Better Together's donors, which National Collective haven't shut up about since, not once, not even for a second.
Women for Independence - they're women, they're for independence, please nobody ask why there isn't a men for independence we'll be here for pages.
Scottish Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament - The Scottish CND have tied their colours to the mast as a Yes campaigning group with the Electoral Commission, having clearly given up hope in tempting Westminster away from its dreams of nuclear superpower status any time soon.
The Scottish Independence Convention - Okay, I'm stumped, I have no idea what exactly this is, but they're apparently registered as a campaigning group for Yes with the Electoral Commission. The main role of their website appears to be to link to Yes Scotland.
Wealthy Nation - a "right of centre" independence campaign, who want Scotland to be independent so we can help rich people and lift the burden of people having to pay taxes.
Labour for Independence, which is not actually a front group, however many arrows you draw on cropped Facebook photographs. How much of a force it actually is within the Labour base is another question entirely, of course.
There is at least one Tory for independence. I met one once, he seemed a nice chap, apart from being a Tory.
Duggy Dug - let's all just pretend this doesn't exist, okay

THE NOES

Better Together

The patriotic all-party & non-party campaign for Scotland in the UK.
The official campaign for a No vote in the referendum, Better Together was launched in June 2012. It brings together Labour, the Conservatives, the Liberal Democrats, and a number of other organisations and individuals with no party affiliation. Because all the parties on the Yes side are much more experienced in attacking the Conservatives rather than discussing actual ideas, it's a common tactic to claim this campaign is entirely run by the Tories and everyone else is some kind of Tory in disguise or an unwitting stooge of theirs. The Tories are a large part of the campaign's funding, but the extent to which they dominate its running is open for debate and will likely be endlessly argued over in the pages to follow.

Better Together is run by Blair McDougall, another relatively unknown name, and Alistair Darling, who people have actually heard of. Darling was Chancellor of the Exchequer under Gordon Brown from 2007 until 2010, and was one of the few people to have been continuously in the Labour cabinet in Westminster since their election in 1997 to their eventual defeat in 2010. Also, his eyebrows are a different colour than his hair. But that's not important right now.

Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party (Conservative and Unionist Party)

We are a patriotic party of the Scottish centre-right which stands for freedom, enterprise, community and equality of opportunity.
The Conservatives have not been a popular brand over the past few decades in Scotland, for a variety of different and unrelated reasons, but they have a pretty consistent minority of support in Holyrood and are worth paying attention to. Their Westminster chums have a big chunk of support below the border, (though not enough for a full majority in parliament) and this wide difference in politics is often cited as a reason for independence. As you'd expect for a party with "Unionist" in the name, the Tories are firmly in favour of keeping the UK together. They aren't daft though, and realise how toxic their brand is to a particular chunk of Scottish voters, and so are keen to keep a low profile in the debate, in particular refusing to have Cameron appear on a TV debate with Alex Salmond. More about that later.

Scottish Labour Party (Labour Party)

Scotland's largest political party, led by Johann Lamont and Anas Sarwar.
Labour have traditionally been the sworn enemy of the Conservatives, or at least presented themselves as such. Since Tony Blair, and a fair while before that, their status as Heroes of the Left has been slipping amongst the die-hard union types. A new tribal hatred has presented itself against the SNP, who have stolen their rightful land of Scotland, where they used to be able to put anyone with a red rosette up for election and get a decent showing, at least outside of the Highlands where people kept voting Lib Dem for some reason. They haven't quite adjusted yet to being in second place to the Nationalists. It doesn't help that most of their talented or ambitious career politicians tend to opt for Westminster where you might get to live in number 10 and declare war on things rather than sit in Holyrood debating boring old schools and stuff. Their main election strategy in 2011, apart from hiding in a sandwich shop and something nobody remembers about knife crime, consisted of the fact they weren't the Tories. This ignoring the fact that there was another, larger party who were also not the Tories and who were largely seen as doing a better job of it than Labour. While their hatred of Nationalism outweighs their hatred of the Tories just a smidgen, it's still causing a few tensions within the party - with the group United With Labour acting as a sort of release valve. Is United With Labour separate to Better Together or part of it? Nobody knows. Nobody will say. What we do know is it's the only banner Gordon Brown has been willing to give a speech in front of, so it stays.

Scottish Liberal Democrats (Liberal Democrats)

Scottish political party working to build a stronger economy and a fairer society.
The Lib Dems are the third party in Westminster and were a fairly significant force in Holyrood, forming the smaller part of the coalition Scottish government from 1999 to 2007. Then their party in Westminster formed a coalition with the Conservatives in 2010, and after the election next year their seats in Holyrood had reduced by two thirds to 5. They will still pop up from time to time to say something in Holyrood, but their contribution to the referendum debate is going to come far more from their presence in Westminster, where they remain an ineffectual part of the coalition government. For one thing, the Secretary of State for Scotland is only ever going to be a Liberal Democrat due to there being only one Scottish Tory MP. There are already a number of pre-made quips about the number of Scottish Tory MPs comparing unfavourably to the number of pandas currently resident in Edinburgh Zoo, and it's much better to send Conservative talking points out to the country when you've got a Lib Dem mouthpiece to do it.

United Kingdom Independence Party (UKIP)

UK Independence Party - Come and join the People's Army!
UKIP have mostly stayed out of the debate so far, as they keep running into problems whenever they come up to Scotland. However, in the European elections they managed to just get enough votes to gain an MEP in Scotland (above, right), who has pledged to involve himself in the debate as much as possible. Whether this is going to help the No side or hinder it is yet to be seen. Probably hinder.

Vote No Borders
~~No Borders UK is a network of groups and individuals who struggle against borders and immigration controls and strive for freedom of~~ The People's Campaign For a No vote in the Referendum.
No Borders is a totally grasroots campaign of grassroots people, set up by a grassroots millionaire fund manager and a grassroots brand management specialist based in grassroots London, having sprung out from near nonexistence into repeated coverage on the BBC and �143k of funding. That's just how quickly grass grows. No Borders promises to show through its advertising the "unpolished" views of "ordinary Scots". This means that they can pretty much put out whatever they like, and if you start questioning whether it's a good contribution to the debate it'll be perceived as an attack on the random member of the public rather than the incredibly-well-funded organisation curating these views and paying to put them in newspapers. They've also got in trouble for a recent advert shown in cinemas about hospital services across the border which specifically mentioned a children's hospital as an example, who were not best pleased at the suggestion they would turn away dying children for the sake of political borders.

Alistair McConnachie

Alistair McConnachie A Force for Good positive arguments reasons case for the union UK aforceforgood.
Who the gently caress is Alistair McConnachie? A good question. Whoever he is, he plans to spend between �10,000 and �150,000 between now and the referendum on his campaigning activities, because he's officially registered under the Electoral Commission. Kicked out of UKIP for denying the existence of gas chambers in the Holocaust, I'm sure whatever contribution he makes to the campaign will be useful and constructive. Hopefully better than his contribution to web design, at least. Yeesh.

Angus MacDonald
Another individual registered as a No campaigner with the Electoral Commission, I have no idea who this guy is at all, particularly because he shares a name with an SNP MSP who presumably isn't the same person. Maybe it's this guy. Maybe this guy had a sudden change of heart. Probably not this guy what with having been dead for a century. That's all the leads I have.

TECHNICALLY ON THE FENCE BUT STILL FAIRLY INTERESTING

The Jimmy Reid Foundation have gathered together a bunch of academic papers on how Scotland could be run and called it the Common Weal. While the project leans heavily towards independence, not all of its proposals require it and they stay very quiet about the referendum question on their website, despire their Director spending most of his time touring the country speaking at Yes events. Whether all this theoretical policy work will ever see the light of day or forever remain the dream of a collection of academics in sweaters has yet to be seen, but at least Robin McAlpine is entertaining to watch at town hall meetings.
A few people have come together to demand a National Council for Scotland be established regardless of the referendum result, to ensure that the settlement for Scotland comes from the desires of the people or something. It's early days yet so this may or may not ever turn into anything.
The Confederation of British Industry is completely impartial. It may have registered with the Electoral Commission as a campaigner for a No vote but that was an honest mistake, and they've reversed it now. They never meant to. It was the kind of thing you do as a normal mistake. This morning I tripped while making my breakfast and signed up to NATO. It happens all the time. They don't have a position. They do have some factsheets you can look at though. Impartial factsheets. That explain why you should vote No.

Angepain fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jul 12, 2014

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Angepain: Jul 13, 2012; what keeps happening to my clothes

THE ISSUES
Okay, if anyone wishes to expand this more, feel free, but here's the basics:

The Economy
When asked what the most important issue in the referendum is, a lot of people seem to put the economy pretty high up there. The problem is that their eyes will then glaze over the moment you start talking about economics. The campaigns have mainly resolved this by avoiding any kind of nuance and just declaring curiously specific amounts of money that independence will make each household gain or lose per (length of time not specified). The general impression being that on the 19th of September we're all going to wake up with either a wad of cash on our doorsteps or bailiffs breaking down our doors to sell off our furniture to make up the difference.

The Yes side say that Scotland will be one of the wealthiest countries in the world and even slightly wealthier per person than the UK. The No side say that we'll have to cut spending and taxes will go up and the Job Creators that have blessed us so will get back in their spaceships and leave for Alpha Centurian tax havens, never to return. I'm being totally balanced, shut up.

Uncertainty
A number of things about the new country depend on negotiations that will take place between the newly independent country and other institutions. The rest of the UK (rUK for short) will have to agree on how the assets and liabilities of the country will be divided up, and Westminster is keen to make any deal Scotland might get seem as terrible as possible, particularly before the referendum. Also, the European Union will have to agree on whether we can join (almost definitely yes) and how long it will take (probably not super long) and how good a deal we'll get out of it (errr).

The Yes side say that everyone else will work together with Scotland for a brilliant resolution in the best interests of all involved, and then we'll all have a party afterwards. The No side says that well, you can't be sure of that, can you, look everyone, they can't guarantee it, and then refuse to go outside ever again due to the possibility that they'll get run over by a car or catch flu from a pigeon.

Defense
The UK's nuclear weapons arsenal is stationed at Faslane in Scotland, which also happens to be less than 30 miles from Glasgow, Scotland's most densely populated city. This has been fairly controversial among the Scots and most of them would like to see it leave. Scotland would also have to figure out it's own defense policy, which of course no country has ever had to do before, so how can Scotland be expected to manage that.

The Yes side keep shouting "Trident" and "No more illegal wars in Iraq" over and over and hope that sticks. The No side keep quoting the number of jobs in Faslane because the most important moral question about nuclear weapons is how many jobs it creates.

Oil
In the late 1960s, oil was discovered in the North sea off the coast of Scotland. At roughly the same time, Norway also found its own oil deposits, and decided to deposit the takings into a special oil fund which it would keep and benefit from the interest. The UK government didn't, and by the time Thatcher got into power it was decided it would be better to use that money to fund the country as it demolished the welfare state and crushed the unions and ate the poor, etc. Years later, our Norwegian cousins are having a whale of a time with their gigantic oil fund, while the UK (and Scotland particularly) hasn't seen much of a benefit. It's a bit late for us to get as fabulously wealthy as Norway, but there are proposals upon independence of salvaging what revenue we can.

The No side say all the oil is going to run out three days after the referendum, and Scotland will have to use all the oil revenue to prop up its spending anyway. The Yes side say we don't need oil revenue to be a wealthy country, but if we want it the oil will last ages and ages, I know a guy who works on one of the rigs and he swears he can feel it in his bones. The Scottish Greens say that maybe we should stop extracting loads and loads of oil and gas and burning it into the atmosphere if we want the slightest change of a remotely habitable world for our children. The other sides then pat the Greens lovingly on the head and tell it to go back to its corner and play with its toys.

More Devolution
The parties on the No side have all made various promises for more powers being given to Scotland in the event of a No vote, in the belief that the independence movement is less about the direction people want Scotland to go in and more about a kind of sexual fetish for unusable government responsibilities on tax. They might be right. The exact powers have been vaguely outlined by the three separate parties, but what actually happens in the end will rely on who wins the 2015 UK election and whether, as the Greens put it, they manage to remember that Scotland exists.

The No side says that they'll totally do it because when have politicians ever thrown out a promise the moment it stopped being politically convenient. The Yes side says that well, you can't be sure of that, can you, look everyone, they can't guarantee it, while hoping nobody remembers where they've heard those words before.

The TV Debate
Not really an issue about independence, but I don't know where else to put it so here it goes. Basically ever since the debate in the 2010 general election rocketed Nick Clegg to international superstardom, TV debates are apparently a Thing That We Do in this country despite no proof that it's actually helped anyone to make a decision in a positive direction even once. The various clashing of personalities and who exactly should debate who carries on. Better Together want to debate against Alex Salmond so they can make it all about the SNP. Yes Scotland want to debate David Cameron so they can make it all about the Tories. Alistair Darling won't debate his opposite number in Yes Scotland because that's beneath him, Salmond won't debate Alistair Darling unless he gets to debate Cameron first. Nigel Farage wants to debate Salmond now for some loving reason, and everyone in Better Together hopes he won't. After this debate debate is resolved we might get to some point where we can have a reasonable discussion on the television about the pros and cons of independence without everyone just resorting to saying what a poo poo the person to one side of you is, but don't hold your breath.

...And now, the debate has been settled for August 5, between Salmond and Darling. In what is sure to be a calm and reasonable discussion of the facts and in no way descend into party political sniping. I have such high hopes, you can tell.

So who's winning?
According to the polls, the Nos currently have it, though the exact margin depends on what polling company you listen to and what time of the week it is. As there's not much in the way of precedent for polling a referendum of this kind, the polling companies aren't entirely sure how they should be weighting things and you get all kinds of conflicting stories. This means we can spend several pages all arguing over exactly which polls are and aren't valid, from an entirely impartial statistical point of view of course, with no consideration given to with which polls give our favoured side the best result. If you've had enough of that and would rather listen to someone who knows what they're talking about (god knows why you're on this forum then), you might want to have a look at What Scotland Thinks, with surprisingly balanced reporting of the significance of the polling numbers by Strathclyde University's John Curtice. In a way Curtice is like Nate Silver, if Nate Silver had far less data to go on and spent far less money on haircuts. He's probably the closest we're going to get, though.

So what happens if Scotland votes Yes?
Scotland becomes an independent country, at some point. There have been some noises from various voices within the UK about the government's ability to mess with things, but realistically denying a country's desire for independence after specifically signing an agreement promising to respect the same is an incredibly risky option. Not only would it ruin the UK's ability to act as any kind of voice for democracy in other countries, pissing all over the validity of self-determination would also damage the case for their claim to the Falklands, which is perhaps more important for the Thatcher-loving Tory base.

But Scotland wouldn't become independent immediately. There will be a period in between the referendum and Independence Day set aside for setting up the new country, reprinting all the office stationery, and carrying out a variety of negotiations with other bodies (see Uncertainty, above). It's an open question how much the rest of the UK might want to throw a spanner into the works of these, and where precisely the balance will lie between protecting its interests and not pissing off their closest and newest neighbour. And uh something about democracy and the rights of the people I guess, sure, why not. The Scottish Government (i.e. the SNP) have proposed 18 months as a "realistic" time period for all this to take place. Whether it will take longer is another thing which will likely be endlessly debated here, but once the negotiations and paperwork are over, Scotland will form its own independent country and will elect its first independent government, and then we'll all have to find something else to argue about. I imagine something will come up.

WEBSITES AND MEDIA AND THINGS

Probably incomplete. Suggestions welcome.

News & Comment
BBC News Scotland - the British Broadcasting Corporation, has gained a bit of a reputation for a lack of impartiality, backed up by an academic study of the BBC and ITV (13-page pdf here, hour-long video here) which has led to some fallout as you'd expect. Both sides of course will claim that there is bias in the media, but the actual reality is that the BBC is completely impartial, as is all news media, except for when it disagrees with me or covers an issue I have a personal attachment to.
The Scotsman - Scottish newspaper. Like most of the media in Scotland, it's not exactly been welcoming of the idea of independence, but it's at least trying to be balanced these days. Sometimes.
The Herald Scotland - a newspaper in Scotland, their Sunday edition is the only newspaper so far to take a side in the referendum, and probably one of the few newspapers that will end up backing a Yes vote. They have a paywall, but well, let's just say Incognito mode is good for more than just pornography.
Bella Caledonia - Pro-independence blog from a number of contributors, probably the blog I'd recommend the most at the moment.
Wings Over Scotland - controversial blog by Bath resident Rev. Stuart Campbell, who may or may not be a real reverend. Thanks to a fundraiser making this basically his dayjob, his output has been fairly prolific and generally consists of quoting things in the media and arguing with them. If you want to link to anything from this website, be prepared for another long Rev Stu: Saint Or Dickhead argument that will quickly derail whatever point you were hoping to make.
Newsnet Scotland - news website taking the Fox News approach of countering perceived media bias by making another news source deliberately biased in the other direction. Very popular amongst independence campaigners but not exactly impartial.
A Thousand Flowers - blog from a group of bright young lefty types. Featuring irreverent writeups of minor political matters and deliberately terrible photoshops.
Independence Daily - a daily digest of the most shared articles on Twitter using the #indyref tag. It updates every day at about midnight. It's run by prominent Glasgow/Athens based lefty Mhairi McAlpine. It of course comes with an immediate bias, as for whatever reason, the No campaign don't seem to understand what the internet is, or how they should use it.

Blogs, etc.
Honestly, the Scottish blogosphere is fairly Yes leaning. If there are actually any worthwhile No-leaning blogs out there please someone tell me.
Lallands Peat Worrier - pro-independence blogger with an interest in law, likes long words.
Derek Bateman - disgruntled ex-BBC journalist.
Lesley Riddoch - Broadcaster, journalist, on the Yes side while staying deliberately separate from Yes Scotland, all round good egg. Her book Blossom is pretty good if you like books.
Craig Murray - Craig Murray is an author, broadcaster and human rights activist, apparently.
Michael Greenwell he does a podcast sometimes, for people who like podcasts.

Poll Analysis :suicide:

What Scotland Thinks - See above. Analysis of polls in Scotland, non-partisan (or at least, not partisan in a way I can discern.)
SCOT goes POP! -some guy with a blog, I don't know

OTHER THINGS HAPPENING IN SCOTLAND

The 2014 Commonwealth Games, which is like the Olympics for people who want to pretend the British Empire still exists, is happening in Glasgow from the end of July to the start of August. It will be a 11 days of of sport and ~~kicking out the poors~~ urban renewal and will not be used as a political football by anybody, nope, not at all, why would you ever think such a thing.
The first same-sex marriages should probably be coming along at some point in the next year, unless that same guy from UKIP has anything to do with it (he doesn't).
Land Reform is on the agenda, though whether that agenda is going to be acted upon or kicked into the long grass until everyone forgets about it again who knows. Perhaps somebody who knows more about the issue can give a more detailed account, but basically Scotland has never really recovered from the feudal system in the same way that other countries have, and vast swathes of land are currently owned by very few people.
The EU elections happened and now we have an elected member of UKIP representing our country. I'm not sure what we did to deserve this.
Trams are now running in Edinburgh, over time and over budget as is the norm for public works in the capital. They make a pleasant dinging noise as they glide past.
Irn-Bru have released a new ice cream which looks pretty nice, haven't tried one yet but I'll get back to you when I have. UPDATE 11/06/14: I had one today, and I'm not really a fan to be honest. I've had worse, I guess.

Edit: By popular demand, here is a bonus picture of Alex Salmond attempting to look human while kicking a football:

Angepain fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Jul 12, 2014

# ? Jun 3, 2014 12:58

GeeCee: Dec 16, 2004; "You're going to be...amazing."

Great opening post Angepain. Long live the Scotpol thread.

As an aside for any non-scots wondering, Haggis is loving delicious and I recommend it highly.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 14:21

QuantumCrayons: Apr 11, 2010

I've just realised that after the vote, we'll have no more polls to analyse :ohdear:

The spirit of the thread will be gone! Also, the OP is good and comprehensive. I can't wait until Farage debates Salmond; you know it's going to happen, because for all that a lot of TV media doesn't seem happy with independence, they love that man.

LemonDrizzle posted:

The OP needs a picture of the Salmond Goose Step - the mandatory march of an independent Scotland.

I think you'll find, he's mid Highland fling.

QuantumCrayons fucked around with this message at 14:43 on Jun 3, 2014

# ? Jun 3, 2014 14:35

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

The OP needs a picture of the Salmond Goose Step - the mandatory march of an independent Scotland.

Also, after the independence referendum is over we'll be well into the buildup to the 2015 general election. Pollchat will never die.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 14:42

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

Just like to note that National Collective's fundraiser for Yestival has just reached the goal of �30,000 with two days left. http://nationalcollective.com/fundraising/

QuantumCrayons posted:

I can't wait until Farage debates Salmond; you know it's going to happen, because for all that a lot of TV media doesn't seem happy with independence, they love that man.

It would be quite something though. I'm just wondering right now if Cameron is either happy that he's avoided a debate with Salmond or he's wishing that Farage kept his mouth shut to not make Scotland more pissed off.

Most likely both.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:10

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Don't tell me that's actually happening :allears:

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:12

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

Obliterati posted:

Don't tell me that's actually happening

It's not concrete but since Farage said he would wanted to debate Salmond. I'm betting 90% Alex is pretty much going to accept considering Cameron isn't going to do anything and that tearing into farage would be something what people would rather see.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:20

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

I think it would be a mistake to assume that getting Farage on a stage with Salmond would be an automatic boost for Yes.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:21

GeeCee: Dec 16, 2004; "You're going to be...amazing."

Can the SNP bring out Nicola Sturgeon for a debate against him instead? It'll be like the Carmichael debate only more racist and sexist. :v:

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:22

LemonDrizzle: Mar 28, 2012; neoliberal shithead

Pissflaps posted:

I think it would be a mistake to assume that getting Farage on a stage with Salmond would be an automatic boost for Yes.

It'd be a loving trainwreck second only to having Cameron stand up and do it.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:28

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

Pissflaps posted:

I think it would be a mistake to assume that getting Farage on a stage with Salmond would be an automatic boost for Yes.

You'd be surprised what people think once they heard/seen something. But regardless, I still see it just to have something relating to rear end in a top hat getting ripped on.

Aliginge posted:

Can the SNP bring out Nicola Sturgeon for a debate against him instead? It'll be like the Carmichael debate only more racist and sexist.

Last time we had a televised debate with Nicola Sturgeon. It turned out to be quite a horrible debate with Johann Lamont when both of them couldn't stop bickering each other.

Not that I find Carmichael to be on the same level as Farage in terms of debating.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:28

Touchdown Boy: Apr 1, 2007; I saw my friend there out on the field today, I asked him where he's going, he said "All the way."

What this debate really needs is Salmond talking to an empty chair pretending Cameron was sitting there.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:29

Extreme0: Feb 28, 2013; I dance to the sweet tune of your failure so I'm never gonna stop fucking with you.

Continue to get confused and frustrated with me as I dance to your anger.

As I expect nothing more from ya you stupid runt!

Touchdown Boy posted:

What this debate really needs is Salmond talking to an empty chair pretending Cameron was sitting there.

Pretty sure a cardboard-cut out or even a sock puppet would be a better choice then a empty chair. Because that would give the feeling Cameron is too comfortable sitting on the chair.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:30

QuantumCrayons: Apr 11, 2010

Pissflaps posted:

I think it would be a mistake to assume that getting Farage on a stage with Salmond would be an automatic boost for Yes.

It would certainly highlight the differences between their respective brands of nationalism. Which the Scottish public would take to, I can't say, but it would be a good debate from a civic nationalist vs. ethnic nationalist viewpoint.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:40

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

QuantumCrayons posted:

It would certainly highlight the differences between their respective brands of nationalism. Which the Scottish public would take to, I can't say, but it would be a good debate from a civic nationalist vs. ethnic nationalist viewpoint.

Don't UKIP consider themselves to be civic nationalists?

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:42

PiCroft: Jun 11, 2010; I'm sorry, did I break all your shit? I didn't know it was yours

As long as it wasn't like that disaster of a debate between Sturgeon and Lamont. That was an atrocious waste of time.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:45

big scary monsters: Sep 2, 2011; -~Ｓｋｕｌｌｗａｖｅ~-

Pissflaps posted:

I think it would be a mistake to assume that getting Farage on a stage with Salmond would be an automatic boost for Yes.

I don't really want to see that debate. While there would be a certain amount of schadenfreude to be had in seeing Farage dismantled by Salmond, it would also imply that UKIP are a party to be taken seriously in Scotland. Despite their MEP I don't really think that's the case and I don't know why the First Minister would want to encourage that idea.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:45

QuantumCrayons: Apr 11, 2010

Pissflaps posted:

Don't UKIP consider themselves to be civic nationalists?

They can consider themselves whatever they want (though I don't think they do), but that doesn't make them non-xenophobic, nor believing in equality for all, which are core tenets of civic nationalism. Their 2014 local manifesto literally singles out Romanians for high crime figures.

What they seem to be classified are Eurosceptic, libertarian, populist and right-wing (though, they only self-identify as libertarian).

QuantumCrayons fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Jun 3, 2014

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:50

GeeCee: Dec 16, 2004; "You're going to be...amazing."

Extreme0 posted:

Last time we had a televised debate with Nicola Sturgeon. It turned out to be quite a horrible debate with Johann Lamont when both of them couldn't stop bickering each other.

Not that I find Carmichael to be on the same level as Farage in terms of debating.

Oh I remember. It was atrocious. :munch:

# ? Jun 3, 2014 15:54

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Angepain posted:

The Conservatives have not been a popular brand over the past few decades in Scotland

Nice OP but can we please stop referring to political parties and countries and such as 'brands'. It really rubs me up the wrong way, much like being called a 'customer' when I had to go to the jobcentre.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 16:00

keep punching joe: Jan 22, 2006; Die Satan!

ThomasPaine posted:

Nice OP but can we please stop referring to political parties and countries and such as 'brands'. It really rubs me up the wrong way, much like being called a 'customer' when I had to go to the jobcentre.

Bu bu but we need to consider brand Britain.

Edit:

As an aside, I was most pleased to see that with Brown returning to relaunch Labour United (or whatever the gently caress they are called) Steve Bell's comics are back in vogue:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2008/sep/24/gordonbrown.labour

Edit 2: Angepain - Independence Daily is a daily digest of the most shared articles on Twitter using the #indyref tag. It updates every day at about midnight. It's run by prominent Glasgow/Athens based lefty Mhairi McAlpine. It of course comes with an immediate bias, as for whatever reason, the No campaign don't seem to understand what the internet is, or how they should use it.

keep punching joe fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Jun 3, 2014

# ? Jun 3, 2014 19:50

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

Great OP man. Although I'm not a huge fan of the Trainspotting quote, I feel people miss the satire too often. I do like this one though:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ionb6wqdess

# ? Jun 3, 2014 20:49

Kin: Nov 4, 2003; Sometimes, in a city this dirty, you need a real hero.

In the last thread someone posted a link to a study that detailed how biased the different news media has been against independence. Does anyone have it to hand? It should probably be in the op amongst the media section.

# ? Jun 3, 2014 23:08

Nissin Cup Nudist: Sep 3, 2011; Sleep with one eye open

We're off to Gritty Gritty land

What if Scotland votes for independence? How do they plan on separating from the UK/England? Erect a statue of William Wallace flipping off the English at the boarder? Lots of paperwork? I assume the UK will complain about loosing Scotland, will they raise a stink about it somehow?

# ? Jun 4, 2014 02:14

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

DOOP posted:

What if Scotland votes for independence? How do they plan on separating from the UK/England? Erect a statue of William Wallace flipping off the English at the boarder? Lots of paperwork? I assume the UK will complain about loosing Scotland, will they raise a stink about it somehow?

Dig such a deep hole right along the border that it seperates us from England then attach motors and power off into the North Atlantic.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 03:35

Shaddak: Nov 13, 2011

ThomasPaine posted:

Dig such a deep hole right along the border that it seperates us from England then attach motors and power off into the North Atlantic.

Or, just rebuild Hadrians Wall. Speaking of which, how closely does that match up to the modern border?

# ? Jun 4, 2014 05:04

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Shaddak posted:

Or, just rebuild Hadrians Wall. Speaking of which, how closely does that match up to the modern border?

# ? Jun 4, 2014 05:07

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Kin posted:

In the last thread someone posted a link to a study that detailed how biased the different news media has been against independence. Does anyone have it to hand? It should probably be in the op amongst the media section.

Got it here, assuming you're thinking about Prof. Robertson and BBC Scotland/STV specifically: I'm not aware of any similar analysis for other outlets. This guy also gave evidence to the Education and Culture Committee (video here but it's an hour long) on his findings (mysteriously, everyone reported that bit except the BBC :shrug:

).

e:

Farecoal posted:

This map is not as precise for the outline of the Roman walls but it does include the modern border for comparison.

Obliterati fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Jun 4, 2014

# ? Jun 4, 2014 06:35

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

DOOP posted:

What if Scotland votes for independence? How do they plan on separating from the UK/England? Erect a statue of William Wallace flipping off the English at the boarder? Lots of paperwork? I assume the UK will complain about loosing Scotland, will they raise a stink about it somehow?

The UK wouldn't 'complain' about losing Scotland, it's the UK that gave Scotland the opportunity to vote for its own independence.

Following a vote for Yes in the referendum Scotland and the now 'rUK' would enter into a negotiation period that can last no longer than 18 months. A negotiation team from the UK and another from Scotland - fully representing the broad political spectrum of the independence movement - would work together in the spirit of the Edinburgh Agreement to come to a agreement that's in the best interests of Scotland.

This will be a complicated process, but broadly you could expect to see Scotland retaining the assets currently within Scotland, while also receiving a per-capita share of all UK assets - domestic, international, financial and military - but not necessarily a per-capita share of UK debt. The Bank of England will take a pragmatic approach to currency arrangements and encourage the government to enter into a currency union with Scotland for as long as Scotland needs it.

The EU will be reluctant to risk a Scottish fishing blockade, so will give Scotland automatic entry to the EU, retaining the opt-outs it currently has as a part of the UK such as the rebate and VAT arrangements.

Businesses will consider moving north of the border to take advantage of an increasingly favourable corporate tax environment, while progressively minded people from all over the world will put in motion plans to emigrate to a Scotland that will never vote for the right.

The BBC will be torn down and replaced with a new national broadcasting organisation that is less inclined to lie about and smear the incumbent Holyrood government.

Those English Unionists that for a while appeared to threaten the cause of independence through the hated main stream media and fraudulent polling companies will not feel welcome to remain in a country pursuing a new path of civic nationalism. Online campaigners are given a hero's welcome. Up-to-now hidden oil fields to the west of Scotland are finally revealed and exploited. Vladimir Putin is the first foreign dignitary to visit the reborn state, assisted by the world's first Scots-Russian translator. A Thousand Year Och is proclaimed to much rejoicing.

This will cost �250 million, around a quarter of the cost of Edinburgh's new 9 mile tram infrastructure.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 08:59

GeeCee: Dec 16, 2004; "You're going to be...amazing."

Alex Salmond appearing at Dundee University as a part of the 5 Million Questions series of talks for anyone interested.

Skip to about 12 minutes in to cut off the empty footage at the beginning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kiatf_Nt3nI

# ? Jun 4, 2014 10:03

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Shaddak posted:

Or, just rebuild Hadrians Wall. Speaking of which, how closely does that match up to the modern border?

I used to live right next to Hadrian's wall and to put it bluntly all of England's geographically largest county (Northumberland) was north of me. The border's a good 60-80 miles north of the wall in the East, though a little closer in the West I believe.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 11:03

Pissflaps: Oct 20, 2002; by VideoGames

ThomasPaine posted:

I used to live right next to Hadrian's wall and to put it bluntly all of England's geographically largest county (Northumberland) was north of me.

Not that it matters much but Northumberland is far from being England's largest county.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 11:07

Obliterati: Nov 13, 2012; Pain is inevitable.
Suffering is optional.
Thunderdome is forever.

Turns out Salmond isn't Mugabe after all, but is in fact Kim Jong-Il:

The Guardian posted:

Alistair Darling has compared the behaviour of Alex Salmond to the North Korean leader Kim Jong-il and said the Scottish independence referendum campaign has become mired in threats and intimidation.

In an interview published in New Statesman magazine,the leader of the pro-UK Better Together campaign argues: "[Salmond] said on the BBC that people voted Ukip in Scotland because English TV was being beamed into Scotland. This was a North Korean response. This is something that Kim Jong-il would say."

In fact, Salmond said "Ukip is a party that gets beamed into Scotland courtesy of the BBC."

Describing a "culture of intimidation" characterised by online bullying, he goes on to say: "When I started doing this two years ago I didn't believe you'd be in a situation in a country like ours where people would be threatened for saying the wrong thing. Business people keep telling me that it is happening as a matter of fact. They say to me, 'We'd like to come out and support you but �'"

The New Statesman article has someone with Photoshop, it turns out.

Aw hail the Thoosand Year Dreich.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:17

Tortuga: Aug 27, 2011; Runner-up, TRP Sack Race 2021/22

He looks like Burlusconi in that one, and like Robert Downey Jr when crossed with Cameron's body.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:23

Coohoolin: Aug 5, 2012; Oor Coohoolie.

it's funny because the only thing vaguely resembling anything North Korean-esque in this debate is the repeated deliberate doctoring of facts and outright lies told by the unionist side, from the scare stories about the NHS being broken up (NHS Scotland has been a separate body since its inception) to citing an LSE study about the costs of independence and ignoring what the report says to pull big scary numbers out of Danny Alexander's arse.

On the bright side though I did see a bunch of stories today about how according to a bunch of economists or something iScotland's minimum wage could reach the living wage in just a few years.

# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:28

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Coohoolin posted:

On the bright side though I did see a bunch of stories today about how according to a bunch of economists or something iScotland's minimum wage could reach the living wage in just a few years.

Apparently if Scotland goes independent they'll be bought by Apple?

# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:43

keep punching joe: Jan 22, 2006; Die Satan!

In an independent Scotland all of the islands will be connected by a network of tunnels, and the trams will glide from St. Andrews to Benbecula.

# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:28

tithin: Nov 14, 2003; [Grandmaster Tactician]

Obliterati posted:

Turns out Salmond isn't Mugabe after all, but is in fact Kim Jong-Il:

The New Statesman article has someone with Photoshop, it turns out.

Aw hail the Thoosand Year Dreich.

This happened in Australia too during the last general election. The amount of people being photoshopped into Nazis was loving ridiculous - I have one particular in mind, but can't find it at the minute.

Also hello ScotPol, I'm migrating back to you from Auspol.

(not actually migrating back, but I intend to be a regular so I can keep up with what's happpening in bonnie caledonia)

Edit: thanks to webmeister in Auspol for finding these. Should probably expect more.

tithin fucked around with this message at 01:14 on Jun 5, 2014

# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:57

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 02:15

ThomasPaine: Feb 4, 2009; We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror.

Pissflaps posted:

Not that it matters much but Northumberland is far from being England's largest county.

Fair enough, I'm sure I remember reading that it was a long time ago. Might have been in term of area to population I guess.

# ? Jun 5, 2014 18:34

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Scottish Politics and the Independence Referendum: Why is Salmond swimming backwards?

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