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http://www.pokerhand.org/?835094 villain is hardly great, but isn't retarded. He's been sorta aggressive but I dont think he'd 3bet me preflop with complete air so I think he has some sort of hand preflop. I check to him on the turnbecause if he fires there I think he has a slowplayed AA/KK and I might be able to make myself fold. When he checks through I'm pretty sure he is sitting on JJ and I'm not sure if he'll call a river bet so I check to induce.
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Feb 19, 2007 01:05
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Xyven posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?835094 I don't get why you'd ever 4-bet with QQ in no limit poker every while any deeper than 70BB, especially 200BB. Its begging to get outplayed. Given that, rest is ok, a river bet might be good depending how he plays, he might see it as AK, but thats only if he's playing JJ, 99, 88 and calling your preflop 4-bet, which comes back to the entire problem of 4-betting with QQ, its so difficult to put him on a range and exploit him.
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Feb 19, 2007 02:13
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Sorry I'll limit myself to 4betting preflop with AKo.
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Feb 19, 2007 02:45
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Xyven posted:Sorry I'll limit myself to 4betting preflop with AKo. 
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Feb 19, 2007 03:48
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LuckySevens posted:I don't get why you'd ever 4-bet with QQ in no limit poker every while any deeper than 70BB, especially 200BB. Its begging to get outplayed. Given the wide 3-bet range of the BB in a blind battle, isn't throwing out the fourth bet fine? I'm thinking of my 3-bet range here and QQ is killing it. Depends on the villain I guess.
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Feb 19, 2007 04:26
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If this is Cake, depending on the villain the 4 bet PF is for value The river is very villain specific.
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Feb 19, 2007 04:49
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crackstar posted:Given the wide 3-bet range of the BB in a blind battle, isn't throwing out the fourth bet fine? I'm thinking of my 3-bet range here and QQ is killing it. Depends on the villain I guess. I'd prefer to do it with a suited connector though to be honest. Its just that its so hard to extract money postflop, but meh each to their own.
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Feb 19, 2007 06:28
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Adar posted:depending on the villain the 4 bet PF is for value Obvious fold to a 20/1, duh!
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Feb 19, 2007 06:45
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LuckySevens posted:I'd prefer to do it with a suited connector though to be honest. Its just that its so hard to extract money postflop, but meh each to their own. Isn't that why you try to make your money pre?
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Feb 19, 2007 06:48
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This might be kind of intereting, I don't know. I'm trying to adapt to tougher games by 3-barreling at a better frequency, see what you guys thinks shadow is tricky, seems to like making a few moves post flop, likes trying to call down with pairs, see what you do on each street sort of thing. He's pretty bad at it though, and +ev to have at the table. Who likes? I had been playing pretty tag preflop and folding a lot of turns/flops etc. ***** Hand 539717873 ***** 5.00/10.00 Texas Hold'em (No Limit) - Monday, 19 February 2007 5:00:48 PM Table TH 344 (Real/Cash Game) Seat 1: ab*CD*ef (995.00) Seat 3: shadow786 (3178.83) Seat 4: pago44 (1704.25) Seat 5: SALucky (1780.00) shadow786 post SB 5.00 pago44 post BB 10.00 ** Deal ** ab*CD*ef [N/A, N/A] shadow786 [N/A, N/A] pago44 [N/A, N/A] SALucky [9s, 10d] *** Bet Round 1 *** SALucky Raise to 40.00 ab*CD*ef Fold shadow786 Call 40.00 pago44 Fold *** Flop(Board): *** : [5c, 8d, Qs] *** Bet Round 2 *** shadow786 Check SALucky Bet 70.00 shadow786 Call 70.00 *** Turn(Board): *** : [5c, 8d, Qs, Ad] *** Bet Round 3 *** shadow786 Check SALucky Bet 180.00 shadow786 Call 180.00 *** River(Board): *** : [5c, 8d, Qs, Ad, 7c] *** Bet Round 4 *** shadow786 Check SALucky Bet 400.00
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Feb 19, 2007 07:10
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That's horrible, since he doesnt have a draw when he calls a disconnected flop like that and your read on him says that he CALLS A LOT. Why would you bluff someone who calls too much? Wait till you have some sort of hand and take him to value town, don't 3barrel stations on dry boards. poo poo, it's not like the river card is even going to scare him. He called your psb on the turn and nothing changed on the river, why would he fold now?
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Feb 19, 2007 07:22
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Xyven posted:That's horrible, since he doesnt have a draw when he calls a disconnected flop like that and your read on him says that he CALLS A LOT. Why would you bluff someone who calls too much? Wait till you have some sort of hand and take him to value town, don't 3barrel stations on dry boards. poo poo, it's not like the river card is even going to scare him. He called your psb on the turn and nothing changed on the river, why would he fold now? I think JT is there, and a queen is very firmly in his range to see if I'm full of poo poo. I'm exploiting the fact he calls this turn way to loose, but the strong river bet pretty much says he needs to beat AK to call. Edit: Also a few random peel hands may have picked up a fd on the turn. LuckySevens fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 07:29
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HE CALLS TOO MUCH SO YOU SHOULD ADJUST BY VALUE BETTING MORE AND BLUFFING LESS. Of course he could have nothing and he might fold this time, but why in God's name would you start 3barreling calling stations. THIS IS BASIC POKER STRATEGY. As it is you're throwing money away, even if he folded this time, because this is a bad play. ONCE AGAIN, VALUE BET CALLING STATIONS, DONT BLUFF THEM.
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Feb 19, 2007 07:38
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Xyven posted:HE CALLS TOO MUCH SO YOU SHOULD ADJUST BY VALUE BETTING MORE AND BLUFFING LESS. Of course he could have nothing and he might fold this time, but why in God's name would you start 3barreling calling stations. THIS IS BASIC POKER STRATEGY. As it is you're throwing money away, even if he folded this time, because this is a bad play. ONCE AGAIN, VALUE BET CALLING STATIONS, DONT BLUFF THEM. Yes, we all know the advice we give to new guys who are starting out playing .25/.50 games, save it for someone else. That is too stop them repeatedly spewing. My situation is unique and not a general theory question, but a specific hand where I normally would never do this, hence why I'm posting. But, even if he obviously peels a little too much, he can still hand read. I mean, so you don't like the second barrel at all? Because I think once we get to the river here, the whole "call too much theory" is sort of bunk, because its obvious I'm playing really really strong here. Guys like this exploit the fact that people don't fire 3 barrels, thats how they don't go broke. They never have to worry about river bets, because TAGs only river bet with the goods. This is the dynamics of the game as I see it. This guy isn't a complete donkey, but he still likes to make too many plays at me and others and tries to be too TV-poker like. I think this guy folds a better hand more than 50% of the time. Also, is there ever a situation against a guy who peels too many flops, where you'd ever fire 3 barrels after a non-drawy flop? Serious question.
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Feb 19, 2007 07:45
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LuckySevens posted:Yes, we all know the advice we give to new guys who are starting out playing .25/.50 games, save it for someone else. Then why aren't you following it?
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Feb 19, 2007 07:47
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Xyven posted:Then why aren't you following it? I am, except once, because I thought he was weak and I was strong. Thus why I posted the hand.
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Feb 19, 2007 07:51
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LuckySevens posted:I'm trying to adapt to tougher games by 3-barreling at a better frequency This has to be a brag post.
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Feb 19, 2007 07:57
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ManicJason posted:This has to be a brag post. This is the problem with any bluff post 
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Feb 19, 2007 08:01
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LuckySevens posted:Yes, we all know the advice we give to new guys who are starting out playing .25/.50 games, save it for someone else. That is too stop them repeatedly spewing. My situation is unique and not a general theory question, but a specific hand where I normally would never do this, hence why I'm posting.
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Feb 19, 2007 08:05
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Unamuno posted:Yeah, yeah, you're a unique snowflake flowerchild or whatever. But 3-barreling calling stations like this is one reason (among many) why I lost a shitload of money on fortune. I'm still unsure as to where I described him as a calling station, but oh well.
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Feb 19, 2007 08:09
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LuckySevens posted:I'm still unsure as to where I described him as a calling station, but oh well. LuckySevens posted:shadow...likes trying to call down with pairs Why did you post this hand for critique if you were just going to ignore the criticism? This goes back to someone asking you earlier this week if you've ever admitted to being wrong before. On the other hand, I don't think anyone here expected you to say, "Ah, good point. I shouldn't have tried bluffing a calling station." I guess we're all used to you.
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Feb 19, 2007 14:36
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albedoa posted:Why did you post this hand for critique if you were just going to ignore the criticism? This goes back to someone asking you earlier this week if you've ever admitted to being wrong before. Just look at the next sentence though, how I said "see's what you do on each street kind of player". I don't know if you've seen these guys, but they seem to like calling with marginal stuff on flops just to see how you react to different turn cards, like floating but not as smart or planned. They can be pushed off hands and don't generally pay off rivers though. I'm trying to work on beating these kind of guys for more money, for obvious reasons. Obviously, I'm going to argue my point, but its always interesting to see what other people think. Xyven's point is more what I'm argueing with, don't bluff calling stations is very true, but this isn't you're run of the mill donator here, these guys are a bit tougher to play. I'd hate to think where my poker thinking would be if I just posted, see what other people thought, then didn't try and justify my play nor tried to extract greater reasoning out of their heads.
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Feb 19, 2007 14:44
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LuckySevens posted:Just look at the next sentence though, how I said "see's what you do on each street kind of player". You were unsure of where you described him as a station. I was just showing ya.
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Feb 19, 2007 15:02
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Everyone is so drat moody around here lately 
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Feb 19, 2007 15:58
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Set O' Fives - Two Two flopped set of fives within minuts of eachother on seperate tables. I take a different approach to both hands based on position and flop texture. No reads. did I play these right? http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDMwcTExMfGxIjFwsbHw8A%3d PLEASE READ MY EXPLANATION BELOW BEFORE COMMENTING http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDGwMTExMfEzYjFwsbHw8A%3d Throwing this one in for good measure as I don't know how to play these hands http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDGwMTExMfBxYjFwsbHw8A%3d <-K8o no hearts Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 18:36
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Fat Turkey posted:
For the first one, I would recommend a standard raise in MP there. When retard #1 goes all in, I would push over the top to knock out Drawy McDrawster behind you. If he is going to call the $10 then you know he is going to call the following street as well, so you might as well raise all-in and try to knock him out. Take this with a grain of salt though because I often give crap advice.
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Feb 19, 2007 19:48
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faarcyde posted:For the first one, I would recommend a standard raise in MP there. When retard #1 goes all in, I would push over the top to knock out Drawy McDrawster behind you. If he is going to call the $10 then you know he is going to call the following street as well, so you might as well raise all-in and try to knock him out. Take this with a grain of salt though because I often give crap advice. I'll explain my thinking. I might as well just asusme for this hand, that either he or me minraised, the other called (so it is HU) then someone threw $10 into the pot. It's HU, I'm OoP, first to act, both of us have $30 and the pot is $15. An open shove to me just seems wrong. Open shoving a flopped set when first to act when V has 2x pot behind him? I think there are better ways to draw that stack out when he has a decent hand. I think there are three types of hands he has A = Calls a shove. JJ, 99, flush draw, straight draw B = Folds a shove, calls a smooth call. Most jacks, most nines, gutshots, sometimes with a horrible hand. C = Hands that fold both. Rib says shove here. I can see why, I isolate the draws. Better to have one person (the all in guy) drawing against me than two (the other caller). I understand that fully. But I don't think it draws the most value from my hand. Shy of V having JJ or 99, I want his stack in there. Shoving the flop gets A hands to commit their stack, but not B hands. TI think there are the same number or even more B hands than A hands. Smooth calling gives B hands very very good odds to continue when most are drawing almost dead. B hands are the ones I want to stick around and commit their stack by drawing them in then pot commiting them/getting them to fold the turn. A hands are calling a shove, so if I smooth call and they hit the turn and our stakcs go in then, I have lost NOTHING compared to if I shove. Either way, both times they hit and I lose. Smoothcalling allows the plentiful B hands to belive they can outdraw me, when they can't. Higher variance definitely...but higher +EV as well I believe for when. 1) B hands call F but fold T 2) B hands call F and call T, feeling pot commited. The times I lose are when B hands suck out on me, which is few. My winning and losing with A hands are the same, as either way both our stacks go in Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 20:30
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FT when I say shove behind I think the guy who open shoved probably has a TP/overpairish/2nd pair type hands because, well, that is what short stackers usually have. I never really see a short stacker flip over a drawing type hand. Also your point about pretending the pot is 15 and you are HU oop doesn't work. For one, it would actually be HU for a 20 dollar pot if you smoothcall because, well, you have to smooth call. So he has to call at least 20. Now if it was truly HU oop for a 20 dollar pot you would obviously lead out at it on that board. However, in this example its HU for a 10 dollar pot with a build in lead of a minimum of at least 10 from you. Even then its still not the same because overcalling is a much stronger play than calling and he has to have a better hand vs 2 players and all that, but you know this. edit also as I said in #poker you are making him lay 10 to win 70 because no matter what you are stacking off if he hits a draw
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Feb 19, 2007 20:43
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I agree that these are both interesting spots (bunch of people see a flop, someone ahead of you overbet shoves for like 1/4 of your stack, there are still people behind to act). I actually think that this can be one spot where minraising is good; if you call most draws have odds to hit, if you minraise the draws can call incorrectly and without implied odds, and you can shove any turn without worry.
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Feb 19, 2007 20:56
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Ribsauce posted:FT when I say shove behind I think the guy who open shoved probably has a TP/overpairish/2nd pair type hands because, well, that is what short stackers usually have. I never really see a short stacker flip over a drawing type hand. I couldn't disagree more. I've seen people pushing with a wide range of hands in positions like that. Either way, so what, I'm WA of all the hands you mentioned, so why would I'm not so much trying to outdraw 2 people if this guy's outs are runner runner. Why scare the other guy out if he has B hands? quote:Also your point about pretending the pot is 15 and you are HU oop doesn't work. For one, it would actually be HU for a 20 dollar pot if you smoothcall because, well, you have to smooth call. So he has to call at least 20. Now if it was truly HU oop for a 20 dollar pot you would obviously lead out at it on that board. However, in this example its HU for a 10 dollar pot with a build in lead of a minimum of at least 10 from you. Even then its still not the same because overcalling is a much stronger play than calling and he has to have a better hand vs 2 players and all that, but you know this. The Hu analogy is a throwaway comment, it has a slight impact on the hand but not to the extent you seem to pretend it does. I like how you get whipped up in your own arguments instead of addressing my reasons behind the move, which I gave. If you have a problem, argue against my points. The implied odds argument that you give, whilst debatable, doesn't matter as I still get value from hands that the 7:1 odds aren't good enough for. Edit: Also EC says its standard and EC is bigger than my dad and EC beats pro poker players HU so TAKE THAT RIB! Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 21:01
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Only thing that hasn't been said is I don't think most jacks or nines will call here, with an overpush and a flatcall. AJ, 2 pair, yes, but I don't see QJ or A9 (or a gutshot???) calling. That puts a larger range of drawing hands than hands you have crushed, so I like pushing more. Then again, it IS cake, and I'm not EC10.
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Feb 19, 2007 21:26
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for the record, I said both hands are played in a standard way and neither are really worthy of discussion. pushing the flop instead of just calling is ok too, whatever. as long as youll be pushing any turn when you call, the overcaller isnt getting odds with a FD or an OESD.
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Feb 19, 2007 21:33
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Results on hand 1 vs JC at NL 2K: He had 54o, for the flopped gutty and turned double gutter that got there on the river. I folded river but he told me that's what he had later. Hand 2 from playing vs JC at nl 2k. See my post halfway down on page 4 for details I gave on his image, my image, the table dyanmic etc. The most important decision here is the turn. I want you to decide if we should call turn, and if you say yes: then do we call a bet (probably pot sized shove) on the following rivers: 7  2 A K 5 game is now 5 handed. JCarver - UTG ($2,938) Me - CO/UTG+1 ($2,343) super short stack on the BTN ($160) donk aggro fish in the BB who will felt flopped top pair 100% of the time ($2,080) Bulldozer in SB ($1,946) JC raises utg to $70 I call with Q 9Button, SB fold BB calls Flop 6 6 7 Pot: $220BB checks, JC bets $140, I call, BB calls Turn Q Pot: $640BB checks, JC bets $500, I ? EC10 fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 22:17
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OK, I started playing NL full ring 2 weeks ago, so I figure it's probably best to start posting in here. No specific reads on the guy - in 30 hands the only hand that ended up being shown down by him was a flop all-in call with QTo on a Qxx board. http://www.pokerhand.org/?837688
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Feb 19, 2007 22:41
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bigfatspacko_uk posted:OK, I started playing NL full ring 2 weeks ago, so I figure it's probably best to start posting in here. I'm not a big fan of the check in the BB here. You most likely have the best hand here, and you aren't in position. I'd raise it up to maybe 4x or so and see if I can get some raggy limp hands out of the way. If he reraises you preflop, then you can easily let go of the Ace/Jack (unless its puppy feet) If I was in the mood to gamble, I'd probably call his all in, or move over the top to isolate draws. I wouldn't put him on AK or QT, he most likely has a ragged ace, or at best AT. I would think newer players tend to slowplay a made hand more than they would just go all in, at least in my experience. 2 pair is only going to improve around 15-20% of the time, so you need to plan on winning with 2 pair. If you really read him as a weaker player, go ahead and try to stack him, else fold and wait for a better spot. Big Poppa fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 23:00
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bigfatspacko_uk posted:OK, I started playing NL full ring 2 weeks ago, so I figure it's probably best to start posting in here. I think that at that level I'm calling his shove. If he has a set or straight, you still have a few outs and they probably have some lovely Ace.
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Feb 19, 2007 23:06
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Big Poppa posted:I'm not a big fan of the check in the BB here. You most likely have the best hand here, and you aren't in position. Raising preflop here sucks for the exact reason you gave. You are OOP, they likely aren't folding here enough to make it worth your while. Check and see a flop.
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Feb 20, 2007 01:33
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bigfatspacko_uk posted:OK, I started playing NL full ring 2 weeks ago, so I figure it's probably best to start posting in here. turbo call
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Feb 20, 2007 01:58
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EC10 posted:Hand 2 Why not raise the flop? JC's bet seems very small for a board that is this drawy, though I don't really know what his typical c-bet for this board is. I guess you said that the cheap street/showdown raise doesn't work well at these stakes or against good lags. I'd also rather squeeze the BB than let him call with big odds. As played, pushing the turn solves the potential river dilemma. My first reaction to the hand was to push the turn, expecting to pick up the pot most of the time, and denying anyone the opportunity of out-playing you on the river. JC's flop bet seemed to say "who's got a six?" and nobody answered, so he fired again on the turn. It seems unlikely that BB would sandbag with just a 6 since the board is so nasty, so it looks to me like either a draw or 66/77/76. You're still quite live against a single six, and it sucks if someone shows up with the boat, but it looks worth the risk in order to try to pick up this huge pot. I really don't like flat calling this turn, it leaves you so lost on the river. Either drop it or push. Facing a river push if you just call the turn, I would be totally lost. Thoughts? crackstar fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Feb 20, 2007 |
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Feb 20, 2007 03:00
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crackstar posted:Thoughts? Nachos brought up the push-turn idea earlier in IRC, and while it does make playing the hand easier (it takes any more tough decision making out of my hands); it also doesn't really serve any other purpose. JC is never folding a better hand (overpair, a 6) to my push.
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Feb 20, 2007 04:43
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