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why obsess over electrics? Algae can make some damned decent oil. Batteries are still "just" chemical power. Fuel cells have a chance. But they're still delicate, and the fuels to feed them are often a pain in the rear end to deal with. I think I stated it before, but I'd need to look back. Hybrid drivetrains are the ideal place for a small turbine engine. They get unbelievable BSFC but only when run at full power. Just build a 25hp turbine, and throw in 60lbs of batteries and you will have something pretty damned workable. Turbines don't even need to be expensive... (all the functional parts of a turbine are the same as turbocharger, and we buy those without even noticing..) Even better, being a steady state load, you could do away with a power turbine, and just drive the generator off the turbine shaft. It would also work to power cars.
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Jan 13, 2010 12:28
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| # ? Apr 26, 2024 07:59 |
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Hey guys, I was doing some reading online and I stumbled across two journal article articles out of the periodical "Energy Policy" that apply to this conversation. Check em' out. Click here for the full 1529x2048 image.  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image.  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image. Sorry I had to post them as pictures. The original format was .pdf and I could not get adobe professional to export to text correctly. The best tl;dr I can give of the summary of the article is that when you take the weight of the vehicle and the amount of mechanical power each medium gets to the wheels, battery electric vehicles are MORE energy dense than a similar ICE vehicle at trips of less than a certain distance. In the case of comparing a Lotus Elise with a Tesla Roadster, that distance was 119 miles. In other words, if you make a trip that is less than 119 miles in a Lotus Elise like vehicle, the BEV version, the Tesla Roadster, is MORE energy dense according to their calculations, which they outline in the article. Also, the article cites DOT statistics that most car trips are less than 20 miles. Another article by the same authors on a similar subject cites a DOT statistic that 78% of Americans drive 40 miles or less each day. Now, I'm going to have to read these articles a couple of times before I fully comprehend them. I know they are talking about cars, and we are talking about motorcycles. So I realize that the driving habits that someone does on their motorcycle may be different than what a person does in their car. However, a lot of you were arguing that you couldn't use an electric motorcycle everyday. Well according to the DOT you aren't driving more than 40 miles a day, or 20 miles in one trip unless you are in the 22% weirdo drivers group, which electric motorcycles can handle, especially if you recharge at work. Also, their calculations look simple enough that I'm sure we can use their same methodologies to see if the points the article makes still stand with motorcycles. Either way, the article is a very interesting read and I can post the other article as well.
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Jan 14, 2010 20:07
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That would be nice if energy density in that context meant...well, anything at all. They essentially redefined range and electric vehicles, ignored cost, and then claimed that they're superior. Yes, electric engines are more efficient than gas engines. That's not under debate. The problem is that whereas a gasoline engine will maintain that energy density over any distance, the electric car is going to go to zero energy density after 119 miles. I don't think that any of us were arguing that you can't use an electric motorcycle every day. It's that given the cost, the idea of having a motorcycle that's limited at 100 or fewer miles per 8 hour charge cycle isn't reasonable. Yes, most of the time I go riding I travel 10 miles to work and back. But not having the freedom to hop on that bike and go 200 miles is where the problem lies.
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Jan 14, 2010 20:24
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Z3n posted:Yes, most of the time I go riding I travel 10 miles to work and back. But not having the freedom to hop on that bike and go 200 miles is where the problem lies. This is the exact same excuse that bros and soccer moms use for driving 4x4 trucks and SUVs.
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Jan 14, 2010 20:31
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frozenphil posted:This is the exact same excuse that bros and soccer moms use for driving 4x4 trucks and SUVs. I guess we should probably take away your project and replace it with an electric car because it's pretty much never going to be used for anything but short trips either...like the trip from the garage to the front yard and back  After all, you pushing that thing around, that can't have great energy density either! Z3n fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Jan 14, 2010 |
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Jan 14, 2010 20:38
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Z3n posted:That would be nice if energy density in that context meant...well, anything at all. Its funny you mentioned they ignored cost because they did another article in the same journal where they addressed cost if you're interested in reading it. The title is; Batteries: Lower cost than gasoline?  Click here for the full 1529x2048 image.  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image.  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image.  Click here for the full 1536x2048 image. Now this article I just read today, so I really can't do a summary on it yet. But hopefully it addresses some of your concerns with the last article.
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Jan 14, 2010 20:40
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Obviously the solution isn't better battery technology, it's wireless charging while you drive down the highway to extend your range. As for the second paper, I don't see anything in it about replacement batteries. Do you have the 'supplemental materials' mentioned? They provide the breakdown of maintenance distribution for the two types of vehicles. Also, where does everyone get off assuming electric motors never need any maintenance? laymil fucked around with this message at 20:51 on Jan 14, 2010 |
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Jan 14, 2010 20:44
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Coredump posted:Its funny you mentioned they ignored cost because they did another article in the same journal where they addressed cost if you're interested in reading it. The title is; Batteries: Lower cost than gasoline? They don't include the cost of battery pack replacement in their estimates...which is the current nail in the coffin of electric travel. It'd be good if an electric could go 300,000 miles without a battery replacement, but they simply cannot. Estimates range from as low as 20,000 miles to 50,000 miles. And batteries are the majority of the cost of the car. They make a lot of assumptions that simply don't carry out. Also, gas engines are significantly cheaper unless gas prices skyrocket, they don't really address that. Gas has to be 6$ a gallon for the conventional tesla to even approach the cost of electricity plus the initial purchase cost of the electric tesla. For the ebox, things are similarly grim. If you want quick charge, which would theoretically give you similar capabilities to gas engines, it's gonna cost you gas being somewhere in the 20$ a gallon range to get 120 miles of quickcharge out of an electric. That's...not very good.
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Jan 14, 2010 20:57
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just want to say that's some a-one research there, Coredump. I think you've taken internet discussion to a new level! I still think the Vectrix is both viable in certain markets while at the same time not being exotic.
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Jan 14, 2010 21:15
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laymil posted:Obviously the solution isn't better battery technology, it's wireless charging while you drive down the highway to extend your range. I do, its a excel file though, I'm not sure how I could host it somewhere.
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Jan 14, 2010 21:24
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Google Docs. Supported Filetypes: Spreadsheets (up to 1MB) * Comma Separated Value (.csv). * Microsoft Excel (.xls, .xlsx) files and OpenDocument Spreadsheet (.ods). http://docs.google.com/DocAction?action=updoc&hl=en
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Jan 14, 2010 21:26
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Jabs posted:Google Docs. Did this work? http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtZWu8v9jvt_dFJKSXpCTHVxSDlCdkIzRnlBaGsyX3c&hl=en
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Jan 14, 2010 21:28
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Coredump posted:Did this work? You need to open up access to it.
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Jan 14, 2010 21:37
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Z3n posted:You need to open up access to it. Try this one. http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AtZWu8v9jvt_dFJKSXpCTHVxSDlCdkIzRnlBaGsyX3c&hl=en
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Jan 14, 2010 21:41
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Yeah, they assume the same efficiency throughout the battery lifetime and don't budget for the replacement of any batteries or any electric motor maintenance whatsoever.
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Jan 14, 2010 21:53
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Z3n posted:I guess we should probably take away your project and replace it with an electric car because it's pretty much never going to be used for anything but short trips either...like the trip from the garage to the front yard and back I'm not sure why you can't comprehend having an electric for daily commuting and a gas engine for fun on the weekend (until electrics have more parity with gas engines for distance and power). You don't own only one motorcycle so what makes you think you'd only be able to have one vehicle if you bought an electric powered vehicle?
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Jan 14, 2010 21:56
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frozenphil posted:I'm not sure why you can't comprehend having an electric for daily commuting and a gas engine for fun on the weekend (until electrics have more parity with gas engines for distance and power). You don't own only one motorcycle so what makes you think you'd only be able to have one vehicle if you bought an electric powered vehicle? Price. The last 4 bikes I've bought combined have been under the price of the cheapest electric. What's the point? Since the 6r has been street legal, I've put more miles on it than physically possible with charge times on an electric.
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Jan 14, 2010 22:37
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frozenphil posted:This is the exact same excuse that bros and soccer moms use for driving 4x4 trucks and SUVs. Except for the majority of people in CA use their bikes for long distance travel pretty frequently.
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Jan 14, 2010 22:59
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Phat_Albert posted:Except for the majority of people in CA use their bikes for long distance travel pretty frequently. The thing is, how do you know this? I would imagine when people talk about the trips they make on their motorcycles, they are only going to talk about the good ones, not the mundane every day commute stories. Thing is, the commute trips may make up the bulks of their rides.
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Jan 14, 2010 23:13
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What I want is an LPG conversion kit for a scooter. Typically scooters have an underseat storage area where you could easily hide a 20lb propane tank. There are already conversion kits online to convert a gasoline generator to Propane, but not much has been done in this country on that front. There are German scooters that come that way stock. Propane is readily available in many locations, high energy per pound, and clean burning. I have heard that propane vehicle conversions typically get 30% worse mileage than gasoline, but since scooters usually get around 100mpg anyhow, it is not that big a deal.
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Jan 15, 2010 20:54
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Nerobro posted:why obsess over electrics? Algae can make some damned decent oil. Batteries are still "just" chemical power. Automotive engineer with the same opinion checking in. Battery electric vehicles are not going to hit mainstream anytime soon, if ever. It all comes down to recharge time, only a select few people are willing to buy a vehicle that they have to plan their week around. Battery swapping stations aren't really feasible. The industry will agree on a single standard battery pack right after we agree on a single standard IC engine to be used in flying cars. The whole point of owning your own vehicle is that it's convenient to go where you want when you want. Until you can recharge the battery in 5 minutes, I would rather spend my money on a bus pass than an electric bike. Electric drive trains however are probably on the way in, and here to stay. You can call it a plug-in hybrid, or electric with range extender, what it comes down to is, electric motors are good, but batteries suck. So we are starting to use electric for propulsion, and hydrocarbon fuel for energy storage. Small gasoline or diesel engines running a generator, powering an electric motor. In the immediate future these will be piston engines, but micro-turbines may have their day. Cars are leading the way, trucks will start to follow about 10 to fifteen years later. Semis will probably wind up with something like a 7 liter turbo diesel genset. Scooters could follow any day, the big highway capable ones anyway. Piaggio had a plug-in hybrid concept at the Milan show. Motorcycles will only follow when we (people that buy them) really care about fuel economy, or performance eclipses the ICE bike. Most of us aren't in it for the em pee gees. We replace CV carbs with flatslides, or install power commanders. If we really wanted fuel economy we would all be scooter riders.
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Jan 17, 2010 21:08
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On a completely different note: http://www.chargemovie.com/ About the TTXGP. Looks good, same director as Faster, which is a movie I am forever gay for.
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Jan 18, 2010 22:01
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Z3n posted:http://www.chargemovie.com/ It's so odd watching sportbikes fly by at ridiculous speed doing the TT without that screaming 4-cylinder soundtrack. Cool, but odd.
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Jan 18, 2010 22:42
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KozmoNaut posted:It's so odd watching sportbikes fly by at ridiculous speed doing the TT without that screaming 4-cylinder soundtrack. Cool, but odd. It would be if they weren't going so slow. They were absolutely crawling compared to the ICEs through that section.
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Jan 18, 2010 23:12
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Z3n posted:It would be if they weren't going so slow. They were absolutely crawling compared to the ICEs through that section. It seemed like they were a bit slow off the start as well, you've got a point. Compared to the onboard lap on my "One Man's Island" DVD, I have to admit the electrics seem a bit.. Sluggish 
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Jan 18, 2010 23:32
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KozmoNaut posted:It seemed like they were a bit slow off the start as well, you've got a point. Compared to the onboard lap on my "One Man's Island" DVD, I have to admit the electrics seem a bit.. Sluggish I don't think an electric has broken the 100mph average speed mark yet. Still, I get more excited watching that video than I do anything else about electrics. The potential exists, it's just not really there yet. But it is cool to see it develop.
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Jan 18, 2010 23:39
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Z3n posted:Still, I get more excited watching that video than I do anything else about electrics. The potential exists, it's just not really there yet. But it is cool to see it develop. ....! ............! THAT WAS THE ENTIRE POINT OF THIS loving THREAD YOU loving LUMMOX! YOU'VE BICKERED AT EVERY loving TURN ABOUT ELECTRICS AND THIS WAS THE EXACT loving POINT I WAS MAKING! gently caress!
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Jan 19, 2010 01:40
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frozenphil posted:....! Because the problem is I am not going to see that in anything but a video for the next...decade, at least. I can go out and buy last year's Yoshimura Suzuki, championship winning bike for 60k, but it's going to be forever before I can buy something that doesn't suck that's electric. I'm excited because it's cool to see development taking place but it sucks because it's horribly underpowered and lovely. Just watch them go through the corners and compare it to any other bike going through there, even a 125. And you were painting us all as luddites for not thinking that electrics are going to replace everything and we're all going to run around on all electrics, all the time. quote:Electricity is your new god. The auto industry is moving towards it whether you like it or not. You can either embrace that fact now and start learning the intricacies of these new machines or you can end up being that guy at the parts store who does nothing but complain about all them drat wires in his engine compartment and how fuel injection is the devil's work. Yeah, that's not really the case. That's what everyone was arguing about, your insane love for something that's just not practical yet or any time soon. As they stand, the bikes suck. We'll see how things look in a decade. Z3n fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Jan 19, 2010 |
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Jan 19, 2010 01:58
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Z3n posted:And you were painting us all as luddites for not thinking that electrics are going to replace everything and we're all going to run around on all electrics, all the time. Look at you. Just reread what I posted and then read your response and see if you can find what is wrong.
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Jan 19, 2010 02:05
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frozenphil posted:Look at you. Just reread what I posted and then read your response and see if you can find what is wrong. I have no idea what the gently caress you are talking about, Mr. "Electricity is your new god". We can't magically guess what's going on inside that head of yours. When you say "Electricity is your new god", we think that you mean "Electricity is your new god" not "Well, there are currently ungodly problems but it shows potential that seems to indicate that someday in the future everyone will use electric engines". Do you understand the different between those 2 statements? Z3n fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Jan 19, 2010 |
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Jan 19, 2010 02:45
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Christ would the two of you chill, drat
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Jan 19, 2010 04:26
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I think the two of you need couples therapy. It's all about communication you know.
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Jan 19, 2010 04:37
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Sorry sigtrap Lord Flashheart posted:I think the two of you need couples therapy. It's all about communication you know. He just doesn't say what he means. 
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Jan 19, 2010 04:38
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Z3n posted:Sorry sigtrap Would you say the spark is gone from your relationship? I'm guessing only one of you is happy about that?
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Jan 19, 2010 04:41
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Phat_Albert posted:Would you say the spark is gone from your relationship? I'm guessing only one of you is happy about that? It started out strong but it's going flat when we try and make it the distance. If only there was something that would let us run strong all the time...keep our relationship going strong from start to finish, however far it may take us. 
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Jan 19, 2010 04:43
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You should probably at least attend church if his god is that important to him. Compromise and all.
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Jan 19, 2010 04:51
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Please my friends. Come to the church of electricity. Grab onto these two leads... er.. handles. And we will take you to god on 100kv of the lords might. Our god will place the spark of gods love in you. It will raise you from your earthly plain and take you to a higher state. You will glow as you return. You will die like all men, but you will die with the charge of the lords soul. [/sermon] If anyone ever hands you a bare wire lead, and they're holding on to the insulated part. Don't. Just don't. We don't need any of you failing the "here, hold this." test.
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Jan 19, 2010 08:51
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Get your electricity puns served up with a disco beat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKecZ4ZPOSA It's a real gas, whether you're rich or lean.
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Jan 19, 2010 10:57
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Nerobro posted:Please my friends. Come to the church of electricity. Grab onto these two leads... er.. handles. And we will take you to god on 100kv of the lords might. Our god will place the spark of gods love in you. It will raise you from your earthly plain and take you to a higher state. You will glow as you return. You will die like all men, but you will die with the charge of the lords soul.  Embrace the unlimited potential!
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Jan 19, 2010 11:29
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alternative fuels always make people angry.
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Jan 19, 2010 13:24
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