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More love please for "Six Hours To Kill," which I thought was better than much of even Ennis's run--not just the story, which was great, but the art, the coloring, the shading, everything. Interview with Swierczynski: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=19577
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Feb 4, 2011 01:04
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Hey I love Duane Polishname a hell of a lot but to say it's better than much of Ennis' run is a stretch. I still don't entirely get what's going on in that plot. Everyone was busy backstabbing everyone else, and Frank's just trying to kill people. That whole thing goes WHOOSH when I try to read it.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:07
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Dickeye posted:Hey I love Duane Polishname a hell of a lot but to say it's better than much of Ennis' run is a stretch. Even if you can't spell it properly, you can copy and paste. On topic, I feel like all three of the stories between the end of Ennis' run and Aaron's launch were actually quite fun to read and suffered only from having to follow Garth Ennis' tour de force. Just look at all three arcs like pulp Punisher stories and they're kind of fun. I liked them better than a lot of the Max one-shots.
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Feb 4, 2011 01:40
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I can spell it, I just enjoy making fun of other Polish names. And yeah I'm not saying any of those arcs are bad, but none of them are as good as Ennis' run. The best was probably Welcome to the Bayou because it was the closest to Ennis' in tone: Frank finds a hosed up situation. Frank fucks it up worse. Frank kills bitches. The end. Also, #75, the miscellaneous story issue? That was loving rad.
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Feb 4, 2011 04:11
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ruddiger posted:Are you talking about the first War Zone arc? Na, I enjoyed War Zone as well, especially the weird story where Frank was put in some Matrix-like virtual reality where his family was alive. Punisher, Punisher War Journal, and Punisher War Zone all wrapped up with the "Countdown" crossover. Frank was tricked into thinking he shot an innocent bystander and became catatonic. He was sent to prison and strapped in the electric chair, but SHIELD faked his death. Eventually he snapped out of it, grew a pony tail, became smitten with a mafia princess and joined the mob:  He joined SHIELD at some point and I think he killed Nick Fury. He may have died in the process. I don't really recall how The Punisher was killed before he was resurrected as a demon hunter. Tato fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 04:34
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Tato posted:
He kills himself, which is shown in a flashback during his demon hunter phase.
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Feb 4, 2011 04:56
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So which resurrection got the worst public outcry? The demon hunter, or Frankencastle? Personally I thought Frankencastle was a fantastic take on the character just because it got him out of the grimy cities and pointed him at some other figure to direct his rage at (in this case the monster hunters and whoever else pissed him off). I actually wished he stayed Frankencastle a little while longer so he could go against all the monstrosities and Strange Science Creatures that the Marvel Universe had to offer.
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Feb 4, 2011 07:08
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There are people like you, and others, who liked Frankencastle (it wasn't my cup of tea, personally) but I don't remember anyone ever defending Demon Hunter Frank. It's very possible that this is because during the whole Frankencastle thing, there was another more traditional Punisher book going on at the same time, so people could just ignore the other title till the whole thing wrapped up, which is what I did. During Demon Hunter Frank though, that was it, that was all the Punisher.
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Feb 4, 2011 07:17
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That sounds absolutely dreadful. This is just a reminder of how lucky we are to live in an age where we get to chose between our Punishers being a horrible shambling monster or a horrible remorseless killer. The age of Punisher. Did anyone ever feel like Kitchen Irish dragged on for them? After the stellar first arc (In The Beginning) I just felt like it was a weird change of pace. It seemed like a crime story with the Punisher just wandering in and wasting a few folks and then wandering out. (I liked it, but I felt like it was not close to some of the shining highlights of Max)
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Feb 4, 2011 07:26
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I really liked Finn Cooley. Other than that, I can live without the rest of the Kitchen Irish arc.
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Feb 4, 2011 07:31
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Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:I took 'Born' a different way: I saw it as giving a real reason for the Punisher's rampage. In all honesty, the Punisher is not about avenging his family but settling into what he really, truly is. Every Punisher story, at its heart, uses the death of his family only as a justification. It's about the planning and the violence. As Ennis says, this isn't a problem because it's mindless violence. But as "Born" shows, this is what Frank really is. He likes the violence and the military offered him that opportunity to indulge even at the expense of a peaceful life. The life he wants is one where his life is constantly being threatened, where he's going up against bad guys that never stop forming despite his efforts, and that he can dominate people physically. It's no longer about stopping crime: that would mean the punishing would have no purpose. It's all about swimming in the misery and corruption for the sheer sake of it. Sure, occasionally Frank goes emo, but he's really the definition of a directionless person. As long as his lack of direction is punctuated by gunfire, he could give a poo poo. He's not solving any problems, the world's corruption is his personal playground to destroy. Frank isn't miserable: he's in his element. This is what he has chosen to live his life. He's certainly not miserable about it. It's summed up in a line in Long Cold Dark, I'm paraphrasing, but it's something along the lines of "Back in Nam, they were my way home. When they were taken from me,they turned out to be my way home in the worst way" He was at home in War, his only gripe in Nam was that the war ended. He wanted a war that would never end. Frank Castle was a disguise he wore before Nam and after he came back, the Punisher's who he is, and was. I loved Max, the Ennis run, it was only about the fourth comic I read, and it blew me away. I also loved that the medium's longevity allowed to really strike at the heart of what it is to be a fictional vigilante: a long, downbeat story where it never really ends. I also really liked the Kitchen Irish arc, mostly for the shootout on the aircraft carrier, which better be in the next goddamn movie. It also contained the truest glimpse into the character ("he's been doing it for forty years, how do you think he feels?") Snowman_McK fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 12:18
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redshift posted:More love please for "Six Hours To Kill," which I thought was better than much of even Ennis's run--not just the story, which was great, but the art, the coloring, the shading, everything. I enjoyed the hell out of that one, and I'll agree the plot was kinda complex. Some big-time mob lawyer wanted to use the Pumisher to take out some of his clients, so he could take over & set himself up as a kind of Philly Godfather. They kidnap Castle and poison him to make him go along, saying that he has six hours before he dies -- so if Punisher doesn't kill the people Mob Lawyer wants dead, he won't get the antidote. Punisher says "gently caress that, I don't work for you. I'm just gonna kill as many of my own targets as I can in the next six hours" -- and proceeds to do so, while on the run from the crooked cops and street gangs that Mr. Mob Lawyer is hiring to take him down. Lawyer dude has a slutty sister whose bodyguard is a messed-up 'Nam vet and they get into the act after a while. You get to learn a neat Vietnamese insult, which I'm sure I never pronounced right. Probably the best post-Ennis MAX story, until Aaron takes over. picosecond fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 13:33
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Dr. Hurt posted:That sounds absolutely dreadful. This is just a reminder of how lucky we are to live in an age where we get to chose between our Punishers being a horrible shambling monster or a horrible remorseless killer. The age of Punisher. Pretty much the best criticism of Kitchen Irish. It's more about giving Ennis a chance to yell about the Irish and the British than it is a Punisher story. Not that it's bad, just not nearly the best MAX story. That's either Long Cold Dark or Mother Russia. Why Mother Russia? One panel: When Fury joins Frank and tells the soldiers to go for it and everyone's response is "gently caress this." e: Re: Born, I used to see it as Frank making a deal with the devil, with his family being the price, but now I'm firmly in the camp of him making a deal with himself: "My family isn't here, so I can do what I want, but once I'm with them, I'm done", and that one taste is what drove him after the picnic to be, y'know, a serial killer. BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Feb 4, 2011 |
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Feb 4, 2011 14:03
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I enjoyed Born, but liked The Tyger one-shot as a Punisher origin story much, much better. Aside from sidestepping the whole "deal with the devil" bit (which never sat well with me), it gives Frank some early psychological shaping as a young child, so you can kind of understand how someone could end up with his kind of mentality/attitude towards criminals. I also think the last few pages are incredibly awesome.
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Feb 4, 2011 18:41
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Baggot posted:I enjoyed Born, but liked The Tyger one-shot as a Punisher origin story much, much better. Aside from sidestepping the whole "deal with the devil" bit (which never sat well with me), it gives Frank some early psychological shaping as a young child, so you can kind of understand how someone could end up with his kind of mentality/attitude towards criminals. I also think the last few pages are incredibly awesome. I'd just like to say that Ennis himself says in the back of the Born hardcover that it's not the devil that Frank is dealing with, but Death.
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Feb 4, 2011 21:07
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Which would you say is the better one shot? The Cell or The End?
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Feb 4, 2011 21:20
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E the Shaggy posted:Which would you say is the better one shot? I personally prefer The End, but they're both really good. I would actually suggest reading all of the Ennis stuff in order, starting with Tyger, going to Born, then The Cell, then Marvel Knights, then MAX, then The End. That could have been all of the Punisher stuff ever published and it would have been an almost completely cohesive story, from beginning to end. The only thing missing would have been the actual origin.
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Feb 4, 2011 21:50
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As I read Welcome Back, Frank, for the first time, I realize what my favorite thing about Ennis is: His insistence on using the same barman (who may or may not be Cassidy!) whenever he can. Seriously, the dude, who writes foul words in the foam in guinness when asked for a shamrock, shows up at least here and in The Boys, and now I'm tempted to go hunting for other appearances. e: He changes the name in Punisher, though. Whatever. Same drat character.
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Feb 4, 2011 23:00
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Dickeye posted:As I read Welcome Back, Frank, for the first time, I realize what my favorite thing about Ennis is: His insistence on using the same barman (who may or may not be Cassidy!) whenever he can. Seriously, the dude, who writes foul words in the foam in guinness when asked for a shamrock, shows up at least here and in The Boys, and now I'm tempted to go hunting for other appearances. I always kind of saw the barman as a self insert for Ennis, or possibly based off someone he knows.
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Feb 4, 2011 23:04
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TheJoker138 posted:I'd just like to say that Ennis himself says in the back of the Born hardcover that it's not the devil that Frank is dealing with, but Death. That doesn't really make it any better to me. :p Still kind of goofy supernatural, while I prefer Punisher more relatively grounded and kept separate from the rest of the regular Marvel universe. E the Shaggy posted:Which would you say is the better one shot? I like The Cell way better than The End. Art complaints aside, The End also felt kind of hackneyed and forced, what with the ridiculously unsubtle post-apocalyptic setting with the eeeeevil human elite, which really didn't leave Frank with any kind of moral conflict (none of the survivors are "innocent", or children, or whatever). The Cell to me is a perfect enough ending to the story of Frank Castle as a character. (It always felt to me like this story takes place toward or at the end of his "career," like it was his last final mission. It's been a while since I read it though so I don't recall if this is explicitly stated in the story or not.)
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Feb 4, 2011 23:11
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Baggot posted:That doesn't really make it any better to me. :p Still kind of goofy supernatural, while I prefer Punisher more relatively grounded and kept separate from the rest of the regular Marvel universe. It actually takes place right at the beginning of his career. It's his first real mission, other than the events of Year One. At least that's the impression I got from it.
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Feb 4, 2011 23:15
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TheJoker138 posted:It actually takes place right at the beginning of his career. It's his first real mission, other than the events of Year One. At least that's the impression I got from it. This doesn't make sense because he turns himself in to prison at the beginning of the story. What would he be turning himself in for, and why would he already be infamous, if he hadn't been killing criminals for years previously?
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Feb 4, 2011 23:21
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Dickeye posted:As I read Welcome Back, Frank, for the first time, I realize what my favorite thing about Ennis is: His insistence on using the same barman (who may or may not be Cassidy!) whenever he can. Ennis said in an interview that this bartender was Cassidy from Preacher, or the closest to him they could get without causing IP issues. He likes to tie all his stories together that way; He made a similar nod to Hitman in Punisher. In Man Of Stone, Agent O'Brien mentions a "stupid bastard" she knew named Tommy. Baggot posted:This doesn't make sense because he turns himself in to prison at the beginning of the story. What would he be turning himself in for, and why would he already be infamous, if he hadn't been killing criminals for years previously? The art makes him look pretty old, too. If I had to put The Cell in continuity, I'd put it just before the start of the Ennis MAX series.
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Feb 4, 2011 23:44
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You know, I should really read Hitman at some point shouldn't I?
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Feb 4, 2011 23:49
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Dickeye posted:You know, I should really read Hitman at some point shouldn't I? Yes. It's still a developing example of Ennis's style, but it's got all the humour, violence and camaraderie he's always done really well.
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Feb 5, 2011 00:09
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It would also be nice if DC actually put the entire series in trades.
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Feb 5, 2011 00:24
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The Action Man posted:It would also be nice if DC actually put the entire series in trades. Wiki says they've been rereleasing them since last year. e: According to Amazon, volume 2 hits next month! That's not a delay at all BENGHAZI 2 fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 5, 2011 |
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Feb 5, 2011 00:59
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Baggot posted:This doesn't make sense because he turns himself in to prison at the beginning of the story. What would he be turning himself in for, and why would he already be infamous, if he hadn't been killing criminals for years previously? He would be infamous and turning himself in for what happened in Year One, where he murdered an entire crime family. Also, getting the guys responsible for his families deaths seems like the first thing he would do, to me.
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Feb 5, 2011 01:30
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TheJoker138 posted:He would be infamous and turning himself in for what happened in Year One, where he murdered an entire crime family. Also, getting the guys responsible for his families deaths seems like the first thing he would do, to me. No, I went back and skimmed through the issue and Frank definitely talks about the guys he's after in the prison like it has been many, many years. Which makes sense because why would everybody responsible for the incident be in prison only a couple years later? The comic explicitly states that the big capo didn't even end up in prison until 1992, which means it's even later than that. (According to MAX, Frank's family died in 1976.) Frank's quote on the next page: "I've put enough of their brothers in the ground down all these years..."
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Feb 5, 2011 01:59
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I'm rereading Valley Forge because I haven't since the singles came out, and something caught my eye: In one of the text sections, he directly references DC. "Imagine Clark Kent played by Jimmy Stewart." Not a big thing, but odd, seeing as it is Marvel.
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Feb 5, 2011 02:59
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Dickeye posted:I'm rereading Valley Forge because I haven't since the singles came out, and something caught my eye: In one of the text sections, he directly references DC. "Imagine Clark Kent played by Jimmy Stewart." Was that a description of the very Morgan Freeman-like Special Ops CO?
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Feb 5, 2011 03:10
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The Action Man posted:Was that a description of the very Morgan Freeman-like Special Ops CO? Not nearly as hilarious/awesome as Christopher Walken in the Barracuda spin-off, though. Complete with his speech patterns.
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Feb 5, 2011 06:55
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JustV posted:One of my favorite articles on The Punisher written by none other than Gavok: Thanks for the shout out. I forgot to mention my favorite part of Marvel Universe vs. Punisher in that article. In one of the flashbacks, he talks about how a bunch of schoolchildren went on a violent murder spree in a Nyack shopping mall. ...I work at that mall.  I like that there's discussion about Frank Castle having sex here because I think that's when I truly realized how broken he is. It's that scene where O'Brien asks if he wants to gently caress and he gives this passionless, "Yeah. Okay." Like she just offered him a 7-Up or something. I think one of the best parts of Ennis' stories is how some of his arcs make you switch sides. Punisher is an unbeatable killing machine and isn't someone you should really sympathize. He gives you a Roadrunner mentality where you'd actually like to see him get his. When a criminal says he's going to kill the Punisher, there's going to be a part of you rooting for them because they're the underdog. That's how the story begins. As it continues, Ennis expounds on his antagonists and makes you so sickened by them that you go back to cheering Frank on.
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Feb 5, 2011 07:37
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Just caught up on the thread. Really glad I'm not the only one who didn't really care much for kitchen irish. My favorite stories in the MAX series so far have been Black is White & Up is Down, and Man of Stone. Although that's probably because O'Brien is my favorite supporting character. Also, Fury's part in Mother Russia was so freaking boss. And am I the only person in the world that thinks War Zone was a far better Punisher movie than the '04 Thomas Jane picture? Edit: VVVV  I knew I wasn't alone. I expected a gory hard boiled, and that's exactly what I got. I honestly think that a December release killed that movie.
Trollologist fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Feb 5, 2011 |
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Feb 5, 2011 09:14
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Trollologist posted:And am I the only person in the world that thinks War Zone was a far better Punisher movie than the '04 Thomas Jane picture? You're not alone in this. I watched War Zone by myself and laughed out loud and fist-pumped a few times. That poo poo was very watchable if you lower your expectations.
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Feb 5, 2011 09:23
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Gaz-L posted:Aaron addressed that point in a way in the recent Max relaunch. Frank started this because of his family, but it stopped being about that a long time ago. He does it because he's forgotten how to do anything else, take the Punisher away from him and what's left? Remender also touched upon this in Dark Reign The List: Punisher. When Daken cuts Frank into pieces, the Punisher monologues about his wife: "I can see Maria waving to me. It's a good lie.".
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Feb 5, 2011 09:26
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The Action Man posted:Was that a description of the very Morgan Freeman-like Special Ops CO? Nope. Description of the brother of the guy writing the book that served as a backdrop for the story.
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Feb 5, 2011 16:22
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Or is it Sputnik posted:The people saying it stopped being about his family are probably spot on. Eh, I was referring mainly to the MAX stuff there. I really liked The List, but I interpreted that line as Frank either not believing in an afterlife, or if he does, knowing he's not a good man. Basically, he's deluding himself for a moment that he's gonna get the happy ending, the warm, white light with Maria in a spring dress and the kids playing. We and he know that's not how the Punisher's story ends, but he lies to himself to make the inevitable easier.
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Feb 5, 2011 17:25
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Xenomrph posted:Glad I'm not the only one who read him as Morgan Freeman. Xenomrph posted:Not nearly as hilarious/awesome as Christopher Walken in the Barracuda spin-off, though. Complete with his speech patterns. motherless gently caress the Punisher" Dickeye posted:Nope. Description of the brother of the guy writing the book that served as a backdrop for the story.
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Feb 5, 2011 17:39
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The Action Man posted:I tell my friends that "Valley Forge, Valley Forge" is the story where The Punisher teams up with Morgan Freeman. I have a hard time believing that you could not see that character as Morgan Freeman. Don't forget the 'gosh-darn Spider-Girl'. Also, I'm now imagining Frank Castle in place of Dennis Hopper in True Romance.
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Feb 5, 2011 18:03
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