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Ixiggle posted:You seem to need help making your points for yourself so yes feel free to edit mine if it makes it easier for you. I actually kinda agree with DandyJ's points on some of Tekken's arbitrary knowledge and execution checks before you can even really get into the game, and its making me reconsider some of my earlier arguments. Even 10 strings aside there's a lot of stuff in there that will blow up anyone who doesn't know about it but are also completely worthless in high level, what I view as a real gimmick. BL argued that overheads were a gimmick and Brett didn't make any distinction in what was superfluous bullshit. There are a lot of people that think combos and DP motions are added bullshit, remember. So when I say "Large casts don't add depth to a game because only a small portion of the cast gets regular play and the rest serve to add in arbitrary bullshit that you need to remember for the one time somebody tries to sneak something dumb past you", you hear "combos are stupid and the DP motion is dumb". Is that what you're saying? Because I think I see why you feel I need help making points for myself now.
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Sep 29, 2013 18:55
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Still wondering why Ultimate Web Throw setups are bullshit, specifically how an inescapable air reset into the move is functionally any different than any combo into hyper. I'm actually interested in opinions, as people on both sides of the current argument seem to agree that it's shenanigans. And to the guy who takes issue with Turnabout, how do you feel about Frank leveling up?
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Sep 29, 2013 19:11
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Coca Koala posted:"Large casts don't add depth to a game because only a small portion of the cast gets regular play and the rest serve to add in arbitrary bullshit that you need to remember for the one time somebody tries to sneak something dumb past you" What I hear is "wehhh I don't want to learn things and characters I consider 'bad' can only win with things I've deemed dumb gimmicks that I don't want to have to deal with wehhh."
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Sep 29, 2013 19:14
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bebaloorpabopalo posted:What I hear is "wehhh I don't want to learn things and characters I consider 'bad' can only win with things I've deemed dumb gimmicks that I don't want to have to deal with wehhh." You should check your hearing in that case.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:23
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In video games I like to punch dudes and then after I punch a dude I like to do more punching since they can't retaliate. I call this a puncho.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:24
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bebaloorpabopalo posted:What I hear is "wehhh I don't want to learn things and characters I consider 'bad' can only win with things I've deemed dumb gimmicks that I don't want to have to deal with wehhh." Dandy J posted:Yo dude there are over 150 ten strings in TTT2, even if you learn them all, good luck remembering what they all look like. Please tell me more about the strategic depth of TTT2 that we get because of the literally over 150 ten strings that everybody agrees are random bullshit.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:26
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To take an extreme example: would fighting game tournaments become more skillful if, instead of isolating competition to specific games, we go the way of chess boxing? Wouldn't it take more skill if instead of being a specialist at a single game, you have to be good at SF4 and Marvel and KoF? It would, in a sense. But it's not what you signed up for. I realize that this is a stupid example that would never happen in real life. But can we agree that having something take more skill in theory does not always make for better competition in practice? All this "why don't you cry more about having to learn more things" is a bit tiring and I frankly don't understand why it always comes to that. To jmcrofts' quote: I worded that pretty badly, I agree, but I think the point still stands. Certainly not all matchups are about grinding out knowledge about the interaction of frame data and hitboxes, but it plays a larger part in some matchups than in others. I think it's kind of a leveling effect, in that in theory you're only as good as your worst matchup. Then as the number of matchups increases polynomially with cast size, you spend more and more time on the shallower parts of every matchup than on the deeper parts of specific matchups. If a game gets 10 more years then that may not be a problem, but not every game makes it that far. Of course in actual play there are mitigating effects, like "no one plays this character so gently caress it", and "I'm Infiltration, a robot" but that's a different story. Redmark fucked around with this message at 19:31 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 19:29
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Waterbed posted:In video games I like to punch dudes and then after I punch a dude I like to do more punching since they can't retaliate. I call this a puncho. What do you call it if you like kicking dudes instead? This is important.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:31
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Coca Koala posted:Please tell me more about the strategic depth of TTT2 that we get because of the literally over 150 ten strings that everybody agrees are random bullshit. Most ten strings aren't even true blockstrings.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:32
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A Bystander posted:What do you call it if you like kicking dudes instead? This is important. Main Boxer. 
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Sep 29, 2013 19:33
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A Bystander posted:What do you call it if you like kicking dudes instead? This is important. A Hwoarang puncho.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:35
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What do 10-strings have to do with large casts? 10-strings are bullshit and there are a lot of 10-strings because there are a lot of Tekken characters? So Tekken should have 20 characters instead so you only have memorize 60 10-strings? Or maybe they should remove 10-strings instead of gutting the roster to solve a problem in the worst way possible! Your problem with 10-strings is a Tekken-specific problem, not a general problem with fighting games that have a lot of characters. edit: I've got it, if you only have 1 Tekken character you only have to memorize 3 10-strings! You can memorize 3 things can't you? Then we can all play our properly balanced and deep version of Tekken, designed by committee in the SomethingAwful Fighting Game Thread. bebaloorpabopalo fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 19:36
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A Bystander posted:What do you call it if you like kicking dudes instead? This is important. You play Jhun Hoon.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:38
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bebaloorpabopalo posted:What do 10-strings have to do with large casts? 10-strings are bullshit and there are a lot of 10-strings because there are a lot of Tekken characters? So Tekken should have 20 characters instead so you only have memorize 60 10-strings? Or maybe they should remove 10-strings instead of gutting the roster to solve a problem in the worst way possible! Your problem with 10-strings is a Tekken-specific problem, not a general problem with fighting games that have a lot of characters. "I mean, yeah, this game has a whole bunch of characters and each character has a certain amount of bullshit that you have to learn about, but I think it's awful silly of you to say that there's more bullshit in the game because there are more characters!" edit: waterbed can i join your conversation instead it seems a lot more fun than talking to bebaloorpabopalo about how the amount of bullshit in a game can be described by the equation AmountofBullshitperCharacter * NumberofCharacters.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:39
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Tekken is really hard yall
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Sep 29, 2013 19:40
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Coca Koala posted:"I mean, yeah, this game has a whole bunch of characters and each character has a certain amount of bullshit that you have to learn about, but I think it's awful silly of you to say that there's more bullshit in the game because there are more characters!" Maybe the solution to dumb bullshit in fighting games is to remove the dumb bullshit instead of limiting the # of characters in hopes of limiting the amount of dumb bullshit. Also to be more specific in the dumb bullshit you're talking about because a lot of dumb bullshit makes a fighting game what it is and is actually really cool and fun and some bullshit (10-strings) is just really stupid and everyone seems to agree it's stupid so maybe complain about that instead of trying to shoehorn it into an argument about how having more characters in a fighting game makes them worse.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:43
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dangerdoom volvo posted:Tekken is really hard yall One time I tried to learn Tekken and it was like running into a brick wall lots of times.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:46
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Did you know that Tekken in Japanese translates directly to "The only true way to become an honorable puncho master is through rote memorization." Little tidbit for ya there, Daigo told me that one. It's why he plays Street Fighter.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:54
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bebaloorpabopalo posted:Maybe the solution to dumb bullshit in fighting games is to remove the dumb bullshit instead of limiting the # of characters in hopes of limiting the amount of dumb bullshit. I agree that the perfect solution to bullshit is to not have it in the game. That sounds like a great solution! If you find any games with 50 characters in them and each character occupies their own niche in gameplay and does something that is both special and also balanced, please tell me about them because I think they sound great. In the real world, however, it turns out that designing a game with no bullshit is actually a hard thing to do. You might even say that it's really hard! Especially because some people are stupid and say that things like combos are dumb bullshit when actually combos are sort of critical to the strategic depth of a game and are one of the defining factors of what makes a fighting game fun. That said, it's way easier to design fifteen characters and make them all free of bullshit than it is to design fifty characters and make them all free of bullshit! That's because making a bullshit-free character is Really Hard (see above) and doing it fifteen times is tricky, doing it fifty times is practically impossible! I don't think it's been done (although again, if you find a game where it has, tell me about it!). So while the root problem is the presence of stupid poo poo that nobody likes, you could say that a large symptom of that problem is very large casts, just because the presence of the large cast means that designers have had more opportunities to accidentally introduce bullshit into the game (because there are more characters and we stated earlier that doing it more times is just harder). So while large casts aren't necessarily inherently bad, it's very easy to do a large cast poorly and very hard to do a large cast well, and it's not clear to me that large casts are, in general, worth the risk of the bullshit when my experience has been that some smaller portion of the cast is going to rise to the top and be played regularly anyways and the rest of the cast serves the role of the occasional "do you remember how to punish the gimmick that this character represents" check.
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Sep 29, 2013 19:58
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This argument is like a Divekick timeout. The winner is in the middle.
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Sep 29, 2013 20:04
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Cool wall of text but just from looking at history it's easy to see there's not much difference in levels of bullshit or % of viable characters between games with a few or a lot of characters. And viewing underused/bad characters as a walking bag of gimmicks sounds like a dumb personal issue since even in games with a huge disparity between top and bottom tier, bottom tier characters can be equally if not more deep than top tiers and it's usually the top tiers that have the insanely good bullshit gimmicks you should be worried about.
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Sep 29, 2013 20:04
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How do you even define "bullshit."
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Sep 29, 2013 20:07
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:How do you even define "bullshit." I think the working definition is "anything I lose to"; note that this is distinct and different from "the things i win with", which i like to call "skilling on my opponent" edit: wait i forgot ten strings in there. edit edit: also fireballs, throws, and blocking.
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Sep 29, 2013 20:15
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I think KOF13 big long combos are dumb and bullshit and not very fun, that's my opinion and you can feel free to argue about it for a couple of pages!
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Sep 29, 2013 20:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:How do you even define "bullshit." Any combo longer than 5 hits.
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Sep 29, 2013 20:45
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The 10 string thing blew up because that guy made an appeal to authority on me wrt to a small example I made with them. I could either call him an rear end in a top hat or respond with a quotation from an authority higher than him. I had no choice.bebaloorpabopalo posted:instead of trying to shoehorn it into an argument about how having more characters in a fighting game makes them worse. Can we agree that, in the abstract: (IE I'm not referring to a certain game, just as a design concept) After so many viable characters, a game becomes less competitive because nobody can possibly have matchup knowledge for most of the cast? That, in the mythical 1000 character game, learning matchups would be a waste of time. poo poo like : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7fMRER4_Jo#t=01m48s wouldn't happen- there becomes a point of diminishing returns where people won't have this kind of intimate knowledge of a matchup. You only have so many hours in a day, so many hours since release, etc. Just remembering the cast's basic moves is not a problem in a game of 20 characters. It certainly could be, given enough characters; nevermind matchup experience. It really is a very modest claim and I don't understand why it's so controversial. However, I think even the uncivil discussion has brought to light some very interesting comments. edit- I'm not bringing anything up about game development time or whatever, and I never did. I've always been strictly talking "Can a game be made worse by having too many viable characters?" 40 OZ fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 29, 2013 |
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Sep 29, 2013 20:58
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40 OZ posted:It really is a very modest claim and I don't understand why it's so controversial. However, I think even the uncivil discussion has brought to light some very interesting comments. Yeah, I realize people get tired of these meandering debates but I don't think it was completely worthless. I wish it didn't get so heated, but, well, if I understood why some things bait people into jumping in and some things don't I'd have won Evo.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:08
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Lisa Lisa and Part III's Joseph Joestar are the next JJBA DLC characters. Best part? Motherfucking Baoh's being teased in the next DLC set.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:14
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Al Baron posted:Lisa Lisa and Part III's Joseph Joestar are the next JJBA DLC characters. Real best part? They're already released. And pretty fun too.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:20
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40 OZ posted:poo poo like : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7fMRER4_Jo#t=01m48s wouldn't happen- there becomes a point of diminishing returns where people won't have this kind of intimate knowledge of a matchup. You only have so many hours in a day, so many hours since release, etc. Just remembering the cast's basic moves is not a problem in a game of 20 characters. It certainly could be, given enough characters; nevermind matchup experience. Art's Sim was drat good back when. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_raEdyfJ7s#t=2m36s (Bonus Tokido commentary)
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Sep 29, 2013 21:24
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Coca Koala posted:Please tell me more about the strategic depth of TTT2 that we get because of the literally over 150 ten strings that everybody agrees are random bullshit. piratepilates posted:I think KOF13 big long combos are dumb and bullshit and not very fun, that's my opinion and you can feel free to argue about it for a couple of pages!
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Sep 29, 2013 21:24
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Recently watched some archived KOF 13 matches from EVO this year (busy working so I missed it the first time). Every time I watch two really good KOF veterans go at it in that game for a moment I pretend that I actually enjoy the game and imagine that somehow everything I know about the game is wrong and that it's a really under-appreciated gem, and after like 3 minutes of masterful play you get to the last round and basically within the first 5 seconds someone gets caught in a HD combo that kills them because they got 5 bars for basically doing nothing but taking a beating and I sigh and lament how KOF 13 was almost a good game.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:31
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Coca Koala posted:the amount of bullshit in a game can be described by the equation AmountofBullshitperCharacter * NumberofCharacters. I know which one of these two terms I would suggest we try and reduce.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:34
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Shiki Dan posted:Recently watched some archived KOF 13 matches from EVO this year (busy working so I missed it the first time).
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Sep 29, 2013 21:40
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No fighting game is good. Play no fighting game
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Sep 29, 2013 21:41
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Jeffrey posted:I know which one of these two terms I would suggest we try and reduce. The answer is EITHER! 
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Sep 29, 2013 21:42
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Guilty gear is ok.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:42
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Dandy J posted:Guilty gear is ok. Slayer's pretty cool and he's my favorite character from ArcSys's library of fighting games.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:44
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Mentioning Slayer as a counterpoint to complaints of "someone can kill you with a touch" should be punishable by death
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Sep 29, 2013 21:49
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Those days are over...also 1 touches like that don't happen from short short -> combo in gg, they happen from specific and usually risky/meter-consuming things.
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Sep 29, 2013 21:50
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