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Atlas Hugged posted:Pretty sure we have statutory rape laws for a reason. More like, regular rape laws. It's not like Mat's underlings aren't guilty of those (though, presumably, not after Rand's proclamation making Tairen lords subject to laws)--Estean speaks of "rolling" farmer's daughters VERY familarly in TSR, and he's eventually a Banner-General. VAGENDA OF MANOCIDE fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Jan 25, 2016 |
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Jan 25, 2016 05:42
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broken clock opsec posted:More like, regular rape laws. I was more getting at the "young guys are horny and would love an older aggressive woman" argument being used as justification when teenage boys are raped by teachers. It's the same concept if not exactly the same dynamic and at that point Mat would be considered "of age" anyway. The fact is, she was in a position of power (literally and metaphorically) and whether or not he "wanted" it because he's a horny teen is irrelevant.
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Jan 25, 2016 06:23
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subpage posted:Pretty sure it's stated over and over that Mat is probably the most competent military commander and officer the world has ever seen. It's actually stated over and over again that people expect Mat to run a disorganized outfit but he does not, at all. Tuon's initial impression is that Mat is well liked by the band because he is lax with discipline, but when this is immediately apparent to not be the case she muses that there are other reasons for a commander to be well loved (winning).
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Jan 25, 2016 08:18
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Blind Melon posted:It's actually stated over and over again that people expect Mat to run a disorganized outfit but he does not, at all. Tuon's initial impression is that Mat is well liked by the band because he is lax with discipline, but when this is immediately apparent to not be the case she muses that there are other reasons for a commander to be well loved (winning). Like the entire point is, that the band is clearly well disciplined and knows what to do, but there are still things that go on on a lower level that Mat isn't as aware of as Elayne is. Like Mat's memories are of generals in battles, a general has a specific role, which is to organise the troops and deliver on battle strategy on a unit level. That's different to what Elayne has to do as a monarch which is to understand the tactics presented to her on a more broad level, but have a greater understanding of overall administration and morale because that's what she'd deal with in her role. My entire argument is that Elayne displays this skill early on and it's not an indictment of Mat so much as just impressive that she would spot these things when he wasn't able to. I mean the entire point of the chapter is that being from Mat's perspective we're meant to discount this skill as being annoying when in reality it's actually really useful.
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Jan 25, 2016 14:11
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While maybe he does not get down into the bottem level of stuff Mat led a very organized camp. I seem to remember early on before the bowl of wind there being a section where it talked about Mat getting the Band to be a very efficient marching force, able to outpace most other armies.
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Jan 25, 2016 15:25
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Like the entire point is, that the band is clearly well disciplined and knows what to do, but there are still things that go on on a lower level that Mat isn't as aware of as Elayne is. Things she was only able to find because she has the power of God on speed dial. That's not the entire point. That is missing the entire point, hard. Elyane goes in thinking that Mat doesn't really know what he is doing and has been given a sweet heart position by Rand (because its the kind of thing she would do). She is trying to help Mat and Rand out by inspecting the troops, giving them the royal seal of approval (which the troops certainly appreciate even if Mat does not) and making sure that Mat isn't screwing things up too badly. Mat thinks she is just being bossy spoiled princess and gets annoyed and she has to find something so she finds things that are inconsequential. There isn't an army in Randland without booze hidden in a soldiers saddle bag and a boil on a soldiers rear end. Guaranteed.
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Jan 25, 2016 17:17
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Blind Melon posted:Things she was only able to find because she has the power of God on speed dial Yes, she's the one with the power of God on speed dial in this little scenario. The one that we've always seen requires personal one on one attention, most likely physical contact, and in each and every instance the recipient can feel. But not here, and she used it because forums user Blind Melon is absolutely convinced that she did so, and furthermore her using the One Power in this instance that she so very clearly did not in constitutes  cheating and the party that literally has permanent plot armor as a plot device from God is the aggrieved one deserving of moral and karmic recompense
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Jan 26, 2016 07:31
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Blind Melon posted:Things she was only able to find because she has the power of God on speed dial. Again, I remain incredibly unconvinced that she used the well known booze finding weave to find the alcohol, or even that she used the heightened senses to smell it above her just knowing what poo poo to ask about.
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Jan 26, 2016 14:14
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Hey, anything noticed this in a Winter's Heart reread?Demandred posted:He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! That's not the Demandred of A Memory of Light, who was always at the frontlines and reveled in dueling powerful opponents. Here he's upset that Moridin has sent him to stop Rand from cleansing saidin. I wonder if Jordan already had worked out Demandred's new role in the Last Battle after abandoning Taimandred when he wrote Winter's Heart.
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Jan 26, 2016 14:30
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Torrannor posted:That's not the Demandred of A Memory of Light, who was always at the frontlines and reveled in dueling powerful opponents. Here he's upset that Moridin has sent him to stop Rand from cleansing saidin. I wonder if Jordan already had worked out Demandred's new role in the Last Battle after abandoning Taimandred when he wrote Winter's Heart. I don't think that's inconsistent? In AMoL he desperately wants to beat Rand fairly, but he's not one to muck in unless he's using a full circle to blow dudes up.
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Jan 26, 2016 16:43
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Again, I remain incredibly unconvinced that she used the well known booze finding weave to find the alcohol, or even that she used the heightened senses to smell it above her just knowing what poo poo to ask about. You invented the booze finding weave from whole cloth, so as stupid as it sounds remember that it came from your brain. quote:above her just knowing what poo poo to ask about. Given that some people are incredibly superstitious about Aes Sedai powers this may have even done it on its own. broken clock opsec posted:Yes, she's the one with the power of God on speed dial in this little scenario. The one that we've always seen requires personal one on one attention, most likely physical contact, and in each and every instance the recipient can feel. But not here, and she used it because forums user Blind Melon is absolutely convinced that she did so, and furthermore her using the One Power in this instance that she so very clearly did not in constitutes Well, lets think about this. Mat literally died. Elyane was literally told she could not die by someone who is always right. You are either stupid or trolling. No other possible conclusion. I also never said Elyane cheated, and I never said she was wrong to do so. If you feel like you are arguing with my stupid its because you are inventing it to argue with. Blind Melon fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Jan 26, 2016 |
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Jan 26, 2016 18:12
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If you wanna say it's magic, Elayne just used the powers of the Game of Houses to notice all the little tell-tales of alcoholism and assumed that guy had some with him. same with the other guy carrying himself just a little carefully and nursing a wound. 
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Jan 28, 2016 02:16
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Torrannor posted:Hey, anything noticed this in a Winter's Heart reread? Jupp, that is indeed a very noticeable thing, might be a sign of Sanderson changing things up (see his cut Demandred chapter). Honestly I think I like the earlier take on Demandred, and it's a pretty sensible viewpoint to have compared to what the hell was going on in AMoL. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Jan 28, 2016 |
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Jan 28, 2016 20:46
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I'm not so sure that its a mistake. The Forsaken have a fair amount of cognitive dissonance about who and what they are. I'm sure Demandred thought he was going to roll in and clean up, and RJ even confirmed that if the Forsaken had worked together it would have been a cakewalk for them, but once it got a little difficult then came the rationalizations. Demandred legitimately believes that he's the best, he probably just thinks he gets screwed by fate so he is willing to cheat to a varying degree to prove it.
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Jan 29, 2016 19:12
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I'll never be convinced that Jordan didn't intend for Taim to be Demandred and then abandon it once it became clear the readers instantly figured it out. I know Jordan denied it and Sanderson denies it and I don't believe them. 
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Feb 1, 2016 04:41
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'll never be convinced that Jordan didn't intend for Taim to be Demandred and then abandon it once it became clear the readers instantly figured it out. I know Jordan denied it and Sanderson denies it and I don't believe them. Not much other way to interpret it, honestly.
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Feb 1, 2016 12:08
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Eric the Mauve posted:I'll never be convinced that Jordan didn't intend for Taim to be Demandred and then abandon it once it became clear the readers instantly figured it out. I know Jordan denied it and Sanderson denies it and I don't believe them. Read my earlier spoiler post / link that clears this up. Here's the most relevant quotes from the SECRET NOTES of RJ: quote:
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=8767 Unrelated, but does anyone have a good map of Seanchanland that isn't the old @1995 one? Google image search isn't giving me much but some higher res versions/variants of the main continent (Randland/Shara etc). e: Actually got two slightly different versions from '95, one of just the continent and the other from the world map (the world map one is more squished). Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 1, 2016 |
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Feb 1, 2016 17:05
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Going through the audiobooks again at work (at least up through book 6 or until I try to claw my own ears off, whichever comes first) and making my way through Book 4, and I had completely forgotten that Moghedian shows up randomly in the middle of the book, fucks with Elayne and Nynaeve, is thoroughly unimpressed, and wanders out of their lives again. Elayne really is the worst character. Even Faile, at this point in the series, is kind of okay, but Elayne starts awful and ends awful. Does she ever, at any point in any of the books, learn anything other than more weaves of the power? Nynaeve has become a lot more tolerable this go round ever since I started pretending like her dialogue is delivered in a younger version of Stephen Briggs's Granny Weatherwax voice. Old Kentucky Shark fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Feb 2, 2016 |
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Feb 2, 2016 23:52
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Oh man, you haven't even gotten to pregnant bath time with Elayne. I think that chapter is in book 9 or 10. After you claw your ears out, you'll want to blow your brains away to finish the job.
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Feb 3, 2016 00:22
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Yeah, every other character actually matures/come into their own...or at least has something like a character development arc. Elayne is just terrible, start to finish. She's probably the flattest POV character that isn't immediately killed off.
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Feb 3, 2016 00:51
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I still never hated her... I don't know. She's pretty lovely if you think about it but I didn't hate her on my first read through.
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Feb 3, 2016 06:06
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RJ *really* went in for writing a socialist PoV of how a crown princess character in this sort of world/situation would really be like?  The most baffling thing is probably her whole romance with Rand. She spends what, <7 days total with him? It's funny how Galad turns out to be the best and most enjoyable Trakand character, didn't really think that when I started out but by the time he shows up for that riot I really warmed on him, or maybe even when he went up against Mat. Hell, I'd read a full book (probably with some sort of romance novel Fabio cover) with just Galad being the boss and the purdiest lad in the whole lands. Pimpmust fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 3, 2016 |
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Feb 3, 2016 17:04
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Pimpmust posted:The most baffling thing is probably her whole romance with Rand. She spends what, <7 days total with him? Oh yeah, this poo poo is so loving weird. I buy Min, I buy Aviendha. I never loving buy this for a second.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:04
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Being a protagonist does wonders for your love life.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:09
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She's a little opportunist and jumped at the chance to snag the potentially most powerful man in the world.
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Feb 3, 2016 23:15
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How are u posted:Being a protagonist does wonders for your love life. new thread title right here
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Feb 3, 2016 23:16
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Pimpmust posted:RJ *really* went in for writing a socialist PoV of how a crown princess character in this sort of world/situation would really be like? Elayne goes from being a spoiled brat princess who is secretly insecure about her ability to lead to a spoiled brat princess who is massively overconfident about her ability to lead. She's making the same type of mistakes in book 14 that she is in book 2, it's just that in her internal narration she's become really, really smug about it. *I feel like the Aes Sedai as portrayed in the first few books would have eaten Egwene alive in the Great Game, but the Aes Sedai as portrayed by the time she's actually Amyrlin have had their competence surgically removed. quote:The most baffling thing is probably her whole romance with Rand. She spends what, <7 days total with him? For Elayne's side... Well, she had an awful role model when it came to relationships in her mother, I guess?
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Feb 4, 2016 02:10
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Someone post the love pentagram
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Feb 4, 2016 02:50
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:It's really, really irritating to look at her character arc in relation to the other two super girls. Nynaeve starts as an emotionally explosive and massively insecure but down to earth townie with a massive inferiority complex around Aes Sedai who eventually transitions into an emotionally stable and worldly woman who is, frankly, one of the better examples of an Aes Sedai by the end of the books. Egwene goes from being a naive girl from the sticks out for adventure to a (sort of*) competent politician and manipulator. Four way. I feel like the last minute attempt to rehab Elayne at least some way towards redeeming her character. Specifically, I think she's punished really really hard for her overconfidence. I can't begin to imagine how terrifying the situation she was in with Mellar would have been. Further, her management of the Last Battle is pretty good and isn't something I think she'd have been able to deal with in Book 2. That said, she's so loving stupid in Book 14 when she goes to interrogate the Darkfriends that I want to scream. On the Egwene side, I feel like the Aes Sedai characterisation is actually pretty good. We see them from the perspective of these country bumpkins and specifically see some of the best examples early on, Moraine, Siuan and Verin. So they seem like this super competent people. Then Siuan gets deposed and it emerges that these three are basically the only three Aes Sedai who haven't been completely hosed up by a system of indoctrination and as this is going on our characters are learning more about the world and becoming smarter. So they get back and realise that the people they looked up to are incredibly flawed and we see that as the reader for the first time there. What's cool is that a little later we see the Aiel come to the same realisation and we see the process that sort of happened to us from the outside.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:17
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Yorkshire Tea posted:Oh yeah, this poo poo is so loving weird. I buy Min, I buy Aviendha. I never loving buy this for a second. She was an insanely sheltered 18 year old and a tall handsome stranger fell into her garden. Thinking on it that probably was the first time Elyane had anything resembling alone time with a guy her age.
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Feb 4, 2016 10:43
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Blind Melon posted:She was an insanely sheltered 18 year old and a tall handsome stranger fell into her garden. Thinking on it that probably was the first time Elyane had anything resembling alone time with a guy her age. Alone time with a guy her age and her younger brother. Who amazingly enough is much more hosed up than Elayne, an incredible feat. Torrannor fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Feb 4, 2016 |
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Feb 4, 2016 10:46
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Then she gets to spend some completely alone time with him in Tear, where he is King. If you find it remotely unbelievable its probably because you have forgotten what 18 year olds are like. Min is the one that always confused me. She was such a blatant gift from god. Dear Dragon, seeing as how no woman would possibly put up with your poo poo I created one that knows she has to, cheers. -C
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Feb 4, 2016 10:51
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Moirane is the best example of an Aes Sedai, cause she stayed the gently caress out of the tower. Cadsuane too. Imagine that.
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Feb 4, 2016 12:02
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Blind Melon posted:If you find it remotely unbelievable its probably because you have forgotten what 18 year olds are like. 18 year olds with no contact with members of the opposite gender for their entire life? I don't think I ever knew any. But yeah point conceded, I still personally struggle with the idea that you can be so in love with someone after knowing them for seven whole days that you want to marry them.
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Feb 4, 2016 15:52
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PS the first 10 chapters of book 8 suck. gently caress Elayne and gently caress Perrin.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:00
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RC Cola posted:PS the first 10 chapters of book 8 suck. gently caress Elayne and gently caress Perrin. This is where "The Slump" begins. You got three books to slog through before poo poo gets better. Though the ending of 9 is great, but the rest of that book is rear end.
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Feb 4, 2016 16:02
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Cartoon Man posted:This is where "The Slump" begins. You got three books to slog through before poo poo gets better. Though the ending of 9 is great, but the rest of that book is rear end. 8 is also awful because there is no Matt. And too much sea folk. 10 is ok because of matt stuff at least. And 9. Plus the end is good. 8 is the worst book
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Feb 4, 2016 17:03
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Yorkshire Tea posted:18 year olds with no contact with members of the opposite gender for their entire life? I don't think I ever knew any. But yeah point conceded, I still personally struggle with the idea that you can be so in love with someone after knowing them for seven whole days that you want to marry them. Something I really wish I had known when I was 18: 18 year old girls are really easy. She is also a princess. Getting married is very much a part of the life plan.
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Feb 4, 2016 18:55
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she's 16 when first introduced to the reader
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Feb 4, 2016 19:29
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JawKnee posted:she's 16 when first introduced to the reader Even more likely to fall in love with a strange tall handsome man
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Feb 4, 2016 20:11
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