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Xabi posted:The fact that it took 23 years for us to get this report is a complete disgrace. Everything about it is disgraceful.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:40
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Thatcher's government had decided after Heysel that football fans were all mindless hooligans and needed to be totally controlled and criminalised at every opportunity even if it meant killing the game as a spectator sport. They tried to introduce compulsory ID cards that had to be shown by every spectator at every game and backed up some clubs banning all away supporters. They most likely saw this as another opportunity to pin the blame on fans, deflect it from themselves and introduce more draconian rules. They would have happily seen the game wither and die to get rid of the "problem" - of course there was no money in it then.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:43
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c0burn posted:This is absolutely astonishing. I'm gobsmacked Everyone knew there was a degree of cover up but the effort the police have gone to is shocking.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:48
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serious gaylord posted:Most of the officers involved are no longer in the force and thus will get bum raped. The alteration of witness statements would have been done around Chief Constable level and is pretty much as wrong as it gets barring acts of violence, if they're still alive someone is going to jail for that. Xabi posted:The fact that it took 23 years for us to get this report is a complete disgrace. "If they're still alive" being the point, keep kicking it down the road and eventually you're faced with ex-Chief Constables and cuntish Ex-Tory MPs who are in their 80s or some poo poo.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:48
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I'm trying to process what I'm reading here, don't want to start drawing manic conclusions straight away. So far the overwhelming feeling isn't anger or disgust. It is very, very depressing. I've never been hugely invested in Hillsborough but this is breaking my heart a little bit. [edit]just imagining the conversations that must have gone on between the people in power at the time, it's just horrible Hoops fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 13:55
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disgraceful. Just happy the truth is starting to see the light of day.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:56
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Just reading all the liveblogs, reactions and articles today has been utterly exhausting, and I'm genuinely on the verge of tears at work. I actually can't imagine the torment and agony the Hillsborough families have been going through for two decades, just heartbreaking. I truly hope this is just the beginning and some justice finally prevails.
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Sep 12, 2012 13:59
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DickEmery posted:"If they're still alive" being the point, keep kicking it down the road and eventually you're faced with ex-Chief Constables and cuntish Ex-Tory MPs who are in their 80s or some poo poo. This is a massive issue for me as well. It's far too late.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:02
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28 people had signs of no obstruction of airways 16 people heart and lungs showing definite signs of working 'Some overlap between those two figures' but 41 people had evidence that they had potential to survive past 3:15. loving hell.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:02
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luvd posted:This is a massive issue for me as well. It's far too late. Any prison time is better than none
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Sep 12, 2012 14:03
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The Collector posted:disgraceful. Just happy the truth is starting to see the light of day. http://www.official-documents.gov.uk/document/hc1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf There it is.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:04
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Pardon the ignorance but have these crimes have not dated? Can the ones in charge back then can still be sanctioned now?
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Sep 12, 2012 14:05
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Scott Bakula posted:Any prison time is better than none Honestly even if they have to convict them posthumously they should do it.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:07
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TheVertigoOfBliss posted:Most half hearted apology ever from Cameron. Refusing to accept his dear Thatcher could have been complicit in a cover up. Irvine Patnick, the Thatcherite backbencher who went to The Sun and fed them the lies they reported (as part of a longstanding anti-football campaign, wanting ID cards, fences etc to curry favour with Maggie) remains to this day a member of the Conservative party. Cameron's quasi-apology can never seem genuine while this is the case. and yes, Kelvin Mackenzie once apologised after direct pressure from Big Rupe, but then a few years later when he no longer had any News Int ties he got up at some awful private members club and gave a cartoon villain speech along the lines of "ha ha! I wasn't really sorry at all, the stupid dead idiots"
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Sep 12, 2012 14:07
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sweek0 posted:Pardon the ignorance but have these crimes have not dated? Can the ones in charge back then can still be sanctioned now? The previous inquest ruled that there was no criminal negligence by the police so until thats overturned they cant be charged at all by UK law.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:08
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It would be nice if the sealed documents weren't being referred to as "new" evidence.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:16
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irlZaphod posted:It would be nice if the sealed documents weren't being referred to as "new" evidence. David Anderson raised that, and Cameron acknowledged it is "newly published evidence" and not new evidence at all, it's been there since the day it happened but now everyone knows why it was suppressed.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:23
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I genuinely thought I would never see this and I certainly never thought that the report would be this damning. I just always assumed that it would be the same cycle of cover-up and recrimination
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Sep 12, 2012 14:26
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irlZaphod posted:It would be nice if the sealed documents weren't being referred to as "new" evidence. He did get rebuked by a back bench question about this, reminding him that the "new evidence" was in fact around at the time and has been ignored and / or suppressed. I saw linked above a pdf, but I couldn't get it to load, but the full report and appendices are listed on their website here: http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/ And a direct link to the report pdf : http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/report/HIP_report.pdf I hope this is a first step. Whilst we have a disclosure of a huge amount of information, the panel's scope is a fact finding one, and no further. The AG needs to be looking at if prosecutions should be sought, a full legal enquiry needs to be convened, and the verdicts of the coroner need to be re-examined. e: beaten on the first bit.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:27
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Timbers Jim posted:I genuinely thought I would never see this and I certainly never thought that the report would be this damning. I just always assumed that it would be the same cycle of cover-up and recrimination Same here. It's a very odd feeling. I am glad I have seen the day the truth is finally out, but the truth is even more horrifying than I could ever have imagined after following it closely for years, especially the CRB check/blood alcohol revelation and knowing that 41 people had the potential to be saved. This is progress, but there's a long way to go before we can say justice has really been done for the 96, starting with a new inquiry.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:38
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excuse me lady posted:Thatcher's government had decided after Heysel that football fans were all mindless hooligans and needed to be totally controlled and criminalised at every opportunity even if it meant killing the game as a spectator sport. They tried to introduce compulsory ID cards that had to be shown by every spectator at every game and backed up some clubs banning all away supporters. They most likely saw this as another opportunity to pin the blame on fans, deflect it from themselves and introduce more draconian rules. They would have happily seen the game wither and die to get rid of the "problem" - of course there was no money in it then. Also, South Yorkshire Police were integral to shutting down the miner's strike five years previously so there was a considerable institutional "debt" that was called on.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:41
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To be honest, a lot of this is just going to be confirming or putting in writing details that are already known or widely accepted. That the Sun headline was based on information being fed out by the South Yorkshire Police, and in particular, a Tory MP (Irvine Patnick) is not new. Kelvin Mackenzie never named his source, but it's been basically known that it was him for a good while. Similarly, that all the deceased were given blood alcohol tests at autopsy was known already, and actually formed part of the evidence against the police series of events (none of them were drunk). That ambulances weren't let onto the field because the fans were "fighting" and that the police's intial concern was to form a barrier across the pitch to stop Liverpool fans from attacking the Forest fans in the other end were also both public, there are witness statements from the paramedics involved. The new information is really the edited police statements and the evidence that people could have survived past 3.15pm. The reason why that's important, for anyone that isn't au fait with this, is that the original coroner's inquiry basically discounted any events after that point as being relevant. That is the cut-off point when you're either alive or dead. In setting the 3.15pm cut-off, that absolves the police of most responsibility there. Basically, "yes, they could have done more, but everybody was already dead or unsaveable by that point, so let's not break balls". For a report to say that people could have survived after that point is therefore an incredibly key point that could make a lot of difference to the legal status of things. That said, I tend to agree with the sentiment that it's realistically too late for anyone who was actually responsible to be held to account, particularly when you talk about it in terms of the complicity between the police, the press and the politicians to advance an agenda and to protect their mates (some things never change). I don't see that you "fix" Hillsborough by arresting the guy who opened the Leppings Lane gate. Far more of it was to do with cultures and attitudes of very senior people that ultimately made it what it was.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:48
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 bozza legernd!! top lad!!!!
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Sep 12, 2012 14:53
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FullLeatherJacket posted:That said, I tend to agree with the sentiment that it's realistically too late for anyone who was actually responsible to be held to account, particularly when you talk about it in terms of the complicity between the police, the press and the politicians to advance an agenda and to protect their mates (some things never change). I don't see that you "fix" Hillsborough by arresting the guy who opened the Leppings Lane gate. Far more of it was to do with cultures and attitudes of very senior people that ultimately made it what it was. I agree, which is why we should be calling for the symbolic and public execution of Margaret Thatcher.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:54
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FullLeatherJacket posted:That said, I tend to agree with the sentiment that it's realistically too late for anyone who was actually responsible to be held to account, particularly when you talk about it in terms of the complicity between the police, the press and the politicians to advance an agenda and to protect their mates (some things never change). I don't see that you "fix" Hillsborough by arresting the guy who opened the Leppings Lane gate. Far more of it was to do with cultures and attitudes of very senior people that ultimately made it what it was. This is exactly the problem. Anyone that has any true responsibility is either very old or already dead so convicting them would be mostly an empty gesture at this point. That's not to say it shouldn't still be done, but it certainly won't carry the same weight it would have had this been done twenty years ago.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:54
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The Sun didn't send a journalist to cover the panel, no representation at all.
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Sep 12, 2012 14:58
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:The Sun didn't send a journalist to cover the panel, no representation at all. Conflicts with BBC just saying that Trevor Hicks ordered anyone from the sun out of his conference.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:01
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serious gaylord posted:Conflicts with BBC just saying that Trevor Hicks ordered anyone from the sun out of his conference. Nobody was there to move, that's how they realised. The Guardian Liveblog - 14:56 posted:Hicks asks any Sun journalists present to leave the press conference. No one leaves, though, as one of the other family members points out "would they tell the truth?"
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Sep 12, 2012 15:02
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Babby Thatcher posted:Irvine Patnick, the Thatcherite backbencher who went to The Sun and fed them the lies they reported (as part of a longstanding anti-football campaign, wanting ID cards, fences etc to curry favour with Maggie) remains to this day a member of the Conservative party. Cameron's quasi-apology can never seem genuine while this is the case. I may be wrong but I don't believe Cameron can expel people from the party. I believe that is for the chairperson to decide/do.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:04
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Xabi posted:The fact that it took 23 years for us to get this report is a complete disgrace. Nothing more to add really, absolutely shocking, all of it.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:10
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Kelvin MacKenzie just offered his 'profuse apology'.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:11
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http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/
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Sep 12, 2012 15:12
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:Kelvin MacKenzie just offered his 'profuse apology'. gently caress him with a rake.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:13
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:Kelvin MacKenzie just offered his 'profuse apology'. Where? And I'd like to see the BBC justify his continued employment after this
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Sep 12, 2012 15:15
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britishbornandbread posted:I may be wrong but I don't believe Cameron can expel people from the party. I believe that is for the chairperson to decide/do. I'm sure internet spam magnate Grant Shapps, who literally runs a shady PUA website, will get right on that
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Sep 12, 2012 15:15
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T. Mascis posted:Where? And I'd like to see the BBC justify his continued employment after this BBC News flashed it and reported it just after the silence, BBC reporter has just put it to the panel as well.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:16
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:Kelvin MacKenzie just offered his 'profuse apology'. The only apology from him that would be acceptable is to garote himself with barbed wire.
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Sep 12, 2012 15:16
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McKenzie has apologised before and explicitly said afterwards that he wasn't sorry so why should this one be any different, kill him imo
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Sep 12, 2012 15:16
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pissy smelliott posted:McKenzie has apologised before and explicitly said afterwards that he wasn't sorry so why should this one be any different, kill him imo yeah he basically said "haha I'm not sorry at all"
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Sep 12, 2012 15:17
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pissy smelliott posted:McKenzie has apologised before and explicitly said afterwards that he wasn't sorry so why should this one be any different, kill him imo imo bring back the death penalty but only for media editorial staff that have repeatedly called for the return of the death penalty
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Sep 12, 2012 15:17
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