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TheGoatFeeder posted:This sums up my thoughts exactly, I mean we all suspected some things had been cooked, but not to this degree. The worst bit, the thing I really can't get my head around, is the amount of people that could have been saved after this magic 3:15 time, there is so much blood on the hands of whichever bastards made that decision to not allow any assistance or medical help to enter. 41 people. Almost half the body count. Forty one. I can't get my head around it. Then I remember how many governments we've had that have obviously been privy to this. Five prime ministers. All the media that's covered this, why did none of the police or ambulance crews at the time come out and say anything?
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Sep 12, 2012 21:37
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 The front page of The Sun tomorrow, they've tried, but still, gently caress them.
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Sep 12, 2012 21:53
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Babby Thatcher posted:
I don't think tories understand what community and solidarity are.
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Sep 12, 2012 21:56
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TheGoatFeeder posted:
That was actually a pretty loving poor choice for a headline to be honest. "We're Sorry" should have been the only thing to leave the presses. Dilkington posted:I don't think tories understand what community and solidarity are. Also water is wet.
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Sep 12, 2012 21:58
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The narrative from the Sun is that they're victims of the Police misleading them, there's no real apology there and they're still scum.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:04
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I felt like a try hard idiot plastic for a long time for refusing to read articles linked from the sun but I don't regret it for a second. Why do they refuse to admit they effed up? don't they have any sense of decency? 
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Sep 12, 2012 22:32
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The Collector posted:don't they have any sense of decency?
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Sep 12, 2012 22:34
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The Collector posted:don't they have any sense of decency? Lmao no. They have countdowns for famous youngsters reaching the age of consent.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:35
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Ben Elton said in 88, in one of his stand ups "Lower than the Star, is the Sun. The Star is merely sexually perverted, the Sun is also politically perverted..." 24 years later and it's completely spot on. It's been a scum newspaper for as long as I can remember. They're no stranger to completely fabricated stories, even front page ones. Even if they were aware it was all bollocks I very much believe they'd have printed it anyway for the sheer fact that MacKenzie was buried so far up Thatcher's arse he could wink at Dennis at breakfast. I believe MacKenzie said once "I didn't know it wasn't true at the time and therefore it wasn't a lie" about some bullshit headline he ran. Don't believe for a second that his successors are any better either. Anything under the Murdoch thumb is a pus filled rotten std addled oval office right to its core. If The Sun had done anything other than publish a front page with "We're Sorry" with the full report being the only thing between the pages then it was the wrong thing to do. I wouldn't wipe my arse on it.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:41
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The Collector posted:I felt like a try hard idiot plastic for a long time for refusing to read articles linked from the sun but I don't regret it for a second. Nobody who didn't buy the Sun yesterday is going to buy it today, and they're going to avoid printing "THE SUN: GET ANGRY ABOUT STUFF AND LIES" just because. That said, I'm reading the report now, and for what it's worth, both Whites News Agency and Irvine Patnick are basically getting their stories directly from South Yorkshire Police officers. I was assuming that there'd be a lot of hearsay, conjecture and chinese whispers involved, but no, the police were openly saying to reporters that supporters stole stuff and offered to rape people.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:41
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The Collector posted:I felt like a try hard idiot plastic for a long time for refusing to read articles linked from the sun but I don't regret it for a second. Also this pic has been going around on Twitter:  Burn the Sun to the ground, etc etc.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:43
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FullLeatherJacket posted:Nobody who didn't buy the Sun yesterday is going to buy it today, and they're going to avoid printing "THE SUN: GET ANGRY ABOUT STUFF AND LIES" just because. Heaven forfend journalists investigate stuff.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:43
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Rupert Murdoch and everyone willingly involved in his horrid empire is scum.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:44
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The Collector posted:I felt like a try hard idiot plastic for a long time for refusing to read articles linked from the sun but I don't regret it for a second. Why would they admit anything? The Police just came out as almost blindingly guilty and you can bet an organization like Murdoch's was more than happy to take full advantage of that to pin the whole disgrace on them.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:47
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Ninpo posted:Heaven forfend journalists investigate stuff. Please note I'm not defending the sun, this is important because they're loving disgusting and what they did after their claims were pointed out to be pure fabrication is disgusting and should go die in the same hole as the news of the world. But not a single journalist working for one of the big papers/news services would disbelieve a cohesive statement from all members of the police they were talking to. If this happened today, the world would know from all the mobile phone pictures and the availability of witnesses to the internet, but back then journalists had essentially the police and football fans to turn to. Football fans who were being demonised because of the hooliganism that made this exact story so easy to believe. Reading the report, it comes across that every question to the authorities came back with the same answers. That the fans were animals, fighting and doing everything they could to stop the emergency services. I can see how a journalist could think he had the story of his life infront of him, and then it all getting carried away when politics got involved. We all know thats bollocks now, and the Sun should have retracted it as soon as they loving could mind, but I had always assumed the Sun had just made all of it up on their own, which while eminently believable, seems rather false now.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:51
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Ninpo posted:Heaven forfend journalists investigate stuff. That's not in dispute. It's a fairly major thing, though, that these are stories being put out by multiple police officers, unsolicited, to reporters and MPs in the days after Hillsborough.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:54
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^^ yes you're right and the police, scum that they are, aren't getting anywhere near enough vitriol due to the easy target that is The Sun.cheese posted:Why would they admit anything? The Police just came out as almost blindingly guilty and you can bet an organization like Murdoch's was more than happy to take full advantage of that to pin the whole disgrace on them. Pretty much and this saves me crafting a long reply to serious gaylord. The rhetoric about what happened played perfectly into the evil football hooligans party line and the agenda Thatcher's cabinet had to punish and sanction football/its fans. How quickly we went to all seated stadia, football banning orders, whole new crimes/elongated sentences related to hooliganism that were already well served by existing laws relating to assault/affray, etc etc. Limited seating drove prices up as demand increased and here we are today, football taken away from the working class and it's doing its loving best to price out the middle class as well. The aftermath of Hillsborough was one of the biggest class war victories for the government and all the blame was laid squarely on the shoulders of 96 dead, the traumatised survivors and the Liverpool supporters of the day. It's a loving travesty.
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Sep 12, 2012 22:59
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It's worth noting that this is only the beginning of the fight for justice for the families, as today is the first day they actually had verification of what happened to their loved ones in 23 years.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:06
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serious gaylord posted:Please note I'm not defending the sun, this is important because they're loving disgusting and what they did after their claims were pointed out to be pure fabrication is disgusting and should go die in the same hole as the news of the world. Actually there were several Mirror reporters who refused to accept it, including one who said he would resign if it was printed under his byline. More here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade quote:The London newsdesk called to alert them to copy that had been filed by Whites news agency in Sheffield that afternoon (here's a pdf copy of that). It made serious allegations against the Liverpool fans, claiming they had been drunk, had pick-pocketed victims and had urinated on policemen. The police & Patnick are the source and now the fight is bringing them to justice.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:07
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Borogrove posted:It's worth noting that this is only the beginning of the fight for justice for the families, as today is the first day they actually had verification of what happened to their loved ones in 23 years. Yeah this is the other thing. A barrister was on the radio, I forget his name, he sort of put into light just how deep this poo poo now goes... Criminal negligence on behalf of the police force and organisers at the time, the various verdicts and outcomes of the civil suits that based defence on complete fabrications, the multiple individuals who loving purjored themselves in court not only at the inquests but subsequent civil hearings, compensation cases, promotions/awards based on police "bravery" and "action" at the time, potential for libel suits against the media and police/government for the obviously false stories printed about the fans, the list goes on. The QC even said in 40 years of practicing legal now, it's the first time he's been surprised, surprised at just how big of a cover up it was.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:10
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There's also the fact that every conviction made by South Yorkshire Police in that period is potentially unsafe, and the political and legal fallout that will result.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:12
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:There's also the fact that every conviction made by South Yorkshire Police in that period is potentially unsafe, and the political and legal fallout that will result. I was 8 at the time so some of my recollection is fuzzy, were any supporters convicted of anything following and related to Hillsborough?
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Sep 12, 2012 23:18
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The relevant sections on Patnick and Whites:quote:The interventions of Irvine Patnick MP quote:White’s News Agency and the ‘authenticity’ of the story If both of those accounts are true, it's incredibly damning for the police.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:20
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Ninpo posted:I was 8 at the time so some of my recollection is fuzzy, were any supporters convicted of anything following and related to Hillsborough? No I mean every conviction over that period, 116 doctored statements by senior officers.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:24
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FullLeatherJacket posted:The relevant sections on Patnick and Whites: Liverpool invasion of Yorkshire will be on the cards.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:25
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:No I mean every conviction over that period, 116 doctored statements by senior officers. Yeah I got what you meant, mine was a separate question.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:25
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Ninpo posted:Yeah I got what you meant, mine was a separate question.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:33
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Ninpo posted:Yeah I got what you meant, mine was a separate question.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:34
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Still no comment from the FA? Quite incredible.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:35
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Fat Guy Sexting posted:No I mean every conviction over that period, 116 doctored statements by senior officers. From reading the report, what they're referring to are statements to the Taylor inquiry, and SYP basically said up front that they'd edited statements, but to remove matters of "opinion" as opposed to fact. There was no great need for them to do that, and that much was said at the time, but then everything carried on as normal. I'm not sure that what they've done there is actually illegal, in that context, although obviously done to remove criticism of police actions on the day.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:36
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T. Mascis posted:Still no comment from the FA? Quite incredible.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:36
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irlZaphod posted:They're probably too busy making GBS threads themselves. The fact that it was an unsuitable venue is pretty damning. irlZaphod posted:The Taylor Report exonerated all the fans, and pointed the finger firmly at the police (the lack of presence and control), and at the fact that Hillsborough didn't have an up-to-date safety certificate (so the FA shouldn't have scheduled an FA Cup semi-final there), and that the ground really wasn't suitable for the match. OK then I'm a touch confused...if the Taylor report said it was the old bill's fault how come there's been 23 years of bollocks? Ninpo fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Sep 12, 2012 |
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Sep 12, 2012 23:40
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Ninpo posted:The fact that it was an unsuitable venue is pretty damning. That was made clear with the Taylor Report, though. I'm not sure the FA have an obligation to come out and make a statement on an issue that was effectively addressed 20 years ago.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:47
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FullLeatherJacket posted:From reading the report, what they're referring to are statements to the Taylor inquiry, and SYP basically said up front that they'd edited statements, but to remove matters of "opinion" as opposed to fact. There was no great need for them to do that, and that much was said at the time, but then everything carried on as normal. Every decision to alter could be argued as misconduct in a public office.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:51
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Ninpo posted:Then I remember how many governments we've had that have obviously been privy to this. Five prime ministers. Would any government arising after the Taylor Report be privy to the cover up? I can see how the governments after 1990 were all culpable for not listening to the families sooner and pressing for full disclosure of the information, but that's slightly different than being privy to what the South Yorkshire police swept under the rug. quote:All the media that's covered this, why did none of the police or ambulance crews at the time come out and say anything? I imagine that's due to an awful mix of institutional loyalty and fear of being marginalized without support from anyone besides the victim's families if they spoke out.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:55
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The police force is a giant old boys club and those officers would toe the line no matter what. Speaking out is an easy way to get stuck as a basic copper for 30 years.
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Sep 12, 2012 23:56
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FullLeatherJacket posted:That was made clear with the Taylor Report, though. I'm not sure the FA have an obligation to come out and make a statement on an issue that was effectively addressed 20 years ago. This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link?
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Sep 12, 2012 23:57
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Ninpo posted:This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link? What do you mean 'what's the missing link'? Do you mean what has yesterday's report revealed that we didn't already know from the Taylor Report? e: Ah, I understand now. Nevermind. 
Umbriago fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Sep 13, 2012 |
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Sep 13, 2012 00:07
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Ninpo posted:This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link? The findings of the Taylor Report were not extensive enough to undo the damage of the initial cover-up on perceptions of who was at fault and it fed into the narrative of the disaster happening due to "unfortunate mistakes at the wrong time by well-meaning people dealing with a broken football system," which allowed the police to escape due scrutiny for so long.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:08
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Ninpo posted:This is confusing me...if there was already a report exonerating the fans and damning the police, what's the missing link? People in power willing to do something about it (as opposed to brushing it under the carpet). But an apology is hardly really doing anything about it, especially 20 years after the fact.
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Sep 13, 2012 00:08
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