|
Lot 49 posted:The telegraph do a separate daily supplement for sports and their cover of that is a big 'The Truth' thing. Pretty insulting to act like this is just sports news.
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 12:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:26 |
|
|
Chocolate Teapot posted:Here's a deeply unhinged article from seethingly bitter ex-games journalist Stu Campbell, calling the people stuck in the crush "murderers". Jesus christ. He fails to grasp the most basic concept that directing thousands of fans into a bottle neck feeding into a terrace area is going to increase density and pressure in that area while only a fraction of those thousands are aware of what's going on. How are people so loving stupid? Ugh. e: "Your comment is awaiting moderation" Heh. Ninpo fucked around with this message at 12:44 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 12:36
|
|
|
What a horrible thing to come to light but at least there is some light at the end of the tunnel for Liverpool supporters now. There is no way the FA will admit any responsibility when most of the bad press is on the police and to a lesser extent The Sun. The real test is going to be whether the police (and politicians?) who were running this cover up and are now on massive pensions will actually be prosecuted and get appropriate sentences rather than banker sentences. This kind of cover up is still prevalent though going by the fact that 300 odd people have died in police custody over the last 15 years with no-one held responsible and more recently the Ian Tomlinson case where the coroner who supported their cause of death who was so bad he was struck off later on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 12:42
|
|
|
Taken from football365, stories that were before Hillsborough in the Telegraph - 'Church leaders have "legitimate" concerns about European judges forcing them to conduct same-sex marriage ceremonies under government proposals, a Cabinet minister says today.' - 'The number of motorists caught speeding is to rise as enforcement cameras make a comeback.' - 'A blundering thief who stuffed 20 mobile phones down his trousers was caught when police heard one of the stolen devices ringing underneath his clothes.' - 'Perhaps he was caught off guard by the directness of the question, but the Duke of Cambridge showed remarkable candour yesterday when he revealed that he hopes to become a father of two.' - 'The father of a close friend of Prince Harry shot himself because he was "tired and did not want to grow old", an inquest heard yesterday.' - 'Apple announced the iPhone 5 at an event in San Francisco last night.' - 'The BBC and other broadcasters are dominated by a "liberal secular elite" whose "default position" is to assume that Christians are "lunatics", a Radio 4 broadcaster warned last night.' - 'The Green Party has made overtures to the trade unions a day after Labour's Ed Balls was jeered by activists at the TUC's annual conference.' - A picture of Kate Middleton flexing her bicep.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 12:46
|
|
|
Scott Bakula posted:- 'A blundering thief who stuffed 20 mobile phones down his trousers was caught when police heard one of the stolen devices ringing underneath his clothes.' Haha yeah thats such a loving funny story to print while England just got the truth about its biggest cover up in recent times. I'm sure they pointed out that the thief was a stupid dirty foreigner as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 13:23
|
|
|
irlZaphod posted:Apparently Bernstein is/was supposed to be making a broadcast statement at noon. I haven't seen anything about it, though. Looks like they've posted the video: http://www.thefa.com/News/2012/sep/david-bernstein-hillsborough.aspx The salient portion: quote:We are deeply sorry this tragedy occurred at a venue the FA selected. This fixture was played in the FA's own competition, and on behalf of the Football Association I offer a full and unreserved apology and express sincere condolences to all of the families of those who lost their lives and to everyone connected to the City of Liverpool and Liverpool Football Club.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 13:40
|
|
|
Chocolate Teapot posted:Here's a deeply unhinged article from seethingly bitter ex-games journalist Stu Campbell, calling the people stuck in the crush "murderers". Christ. I haven't heard that name in a long time, but he used to write for one of my favourite magazines when I was a kid. Campbell always seemed like a bit of a chippy little twat but he used to funnel the anger into different places. Compare and contrast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Fodder_(video_game)#Controversy It's depressing to see him coming out with this ill-informed garbage and calling it journalism. He mentions crowd dynamics but doesn't seem to have any real idea how stampedes and crushes happen. Blaming members of the crowd for being funnelled into a crush is poisonous drivel and he should think v. hard about how this is what he's come to as a supposedly 'anti-establishment' scribbler. Bitter is the word I don't really see how the Telegraph class one of the worst cover-ups/conspiracies in British history as purely a sport story either. Seems a little convenient for our bluest broadsheet to stick it on their supplement.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 13:42
|
|
|
Chocolate Teapot posted:Here's a deeply unhinged article from seethingly bitter ex-games journalist Stu Campbell, calling the people stuck in the crush "murderers". For gently caress's sake, he even puts a loving picture of crush victims as the thing is loving happening into his article, and for what exactly? Victim blaming of the most callous standard, I'm genuinely lost for words over the sound of my blood boiling.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 13:55
|
|
|
I commented to him asking how the people being funneled in were supposed to know people were getting crushed at the front and his response was "well don't loving push then" 
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:15
|
|
|
Again, I'm not sure why there's a real need for the FA to come out and offer an apology when their culpability for what happened at Hillsborough was determined 20 years ago with the Taylor Report, and they fully implemented every change that Taylor asked for as a result (despite people in this thread saying that doing so "killed" football/was a Tory plot to disenfranchise the working class). Considering that nothing's come out now that places any further culpability on the FA, and there's no suggestion that they were complicit with anything SYP were doing, I don't see that the FA is required to issue anything more than a general statement of support for the families.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:17
|
|
|
FullLeatherJacket posted:Again, I'm not sure why there's a real need for the FA to come out and offer an apology when their culpability for what happened at Hillsborough was determined 20 years ago with the Taylor Report, and they fully implemented every change that Taylor asked for as a result (despite people in this thread saying that doing so "killed" football/was a Tory plot to disenfranchise the working class). With a new inquest around the corner there is now a corporate manslaughter charge, which didn't exist in 1989, than can be leveled against them, since they knowingly chose a ground that did not have a safety certificate and 96 deaths resulted from that decision. At least that's what I've seen bandied about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:25
|
|
|
How common were ground safety certificates then? Was Hillsborough unusual in not having one? What did a stadium need to do or have to qualify for one?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:28
|
|
|
T. Mascis posted:With a new inquest around the corner there is now a corporate manslaughter charge, which didn't exist in 1989, than can be leveled against them, since they knowingly chose a ground that did not have a safety certificate and 96 deaths resulted from that decision. At least that's what I've seen bandied about. Whoever's saying that is mistaken. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act came into force in 2007 and won't be applied retrospectively*, so the FA could only have action brought against them for breaches of the law as it stood in '89 -- when it was virtually impossible to secure a manslaughter charge against a corporate entity. *in theory I suppose it could happen, but it really really won't.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:33
|
|
|
Umbriago posted:Whoever's saying that is mistaken. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act came into force in 2007 and can't be applied retrospectively, so the FA could only have action brought against them for breaches of the law as it stood in '89 -- when it was virtually impossible to secure a manslaughter charge against a corporate entity. Thank you, I knew it would be confirmed/denied here quickly, that's why SA owns
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:33
|
|
|
Umbriago posted:Whoever's saying that is mistaken. The Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act came into force in 2007 and won't be applied retrospectively*, so the FA could only have action brought against them for breaches of the law as it stood in '89 -- when it was virtually impossible to secure a manslaughter charge against a corporate entity. From the HSE Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act page: Will the Act be retrospective? No, the Act came into force on 6 April 2008 and will only apply to deaths that occur from that date. Deaths that occur before 6 April 2008 will continue to be covered by the previous law on corporate manslaughter.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:48
|
|
|
Daveman23 posted:From the HSE Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act page: Yeah, the theoretical element is that Parliament can pass another law making the CMCH Act 2007 apply retroactively -- but it's just not going to happen.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:58
|
|
|
Virexsi posted:Christ. I haven't heard that name in a long time, but he used to write for one of my favourite magazines when I was a kid. Campbell always seemed like a bit of a chippy little twat but he used to funnel the anger into different places. Compare and contrast: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannon_Fodder_(video_game)#Controversy Interesting, he published a near identical article on that blog a year or two back but I think it was one of them that got purged when he had one of his regular stress outs and literally deleted 90% of the posts. I assumed it was because he thought better of it, apparently not. Knowing the man, I'd already archived said blog, I'll dig out the original version (and the comments) when I get to work. Dudley fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 14:59
|
|
|
Umbriago, what's your view on the AG pursuing Misconduct in a Public Offie charges?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:02
|
|
|
Fat Guy Sexting posted:Umbriago, what's your view on the AG pursuing Misconduct in a Public Offie charges? Hmmm, well I'm not really familiar with the case law here, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt. A quick look at the offence and I see at least two grounds where a charge of Misconduct in a Public Office would probably fail. 1. The charge must be brought against an individual public officer, which means finding an FA exec single-handedly responsible for the failure to acknowledge existing safety risks, for failing to adapt stadia accordingly, for choosing to host the match at Hillsbrough, etc etc... In instances like this I just don't think that those kind of decisions are made by individuals, they're collective decisions/systemic failures that take place for a number of reasons over a long period of time, and it was this gap in the law that caused the CMCH Act to be passed. There's almost certainly no one FA executive who could be charged as being responsible for all of the relevant failures which lead to the disaster. 2. Even if said individual does exist and can be found, you then have to prove that they were willfully negligent or acted with misconduct. This is a really high standard to meet -- the prosecution would have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the accused "deliberately did something which was wrong knowing it to be wrong or with reckless indifference as to whether it was wrong or not". This is a subjective test, meaning the public officer must have known that their behaviour was capable of being misconduct. I can't imagine how you could successfully prove that for decisions that were made 23 years ago (and beyond), you'd be trying to prove someone's thoughts with almost no evidence to support your case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:27
|
|
|
SYP have confirmed they are "considering" referring the Hillsborough operation to the IPCC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:32
|
|
|
Umbriago posted:Hmmm, well I'm not really familiar with the case law here, so take my thoughts with a pinch of salt. A quick look at the offence and I see at least two grounds where a charge of Misconduct in a Public Office would probably fail. Interesting that you see potential FA culpability, but I meant South Yorkshire Police and the Ambulance service.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:33
|
|
|
Would an FA employee even count as a public officer?!
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:34
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:SYP have confirmed they are "considering" referring the Hillsborough operation to the IPCC. Probably hoping this will stop another criminal investigation knowing the IPCC are fairly useless
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:35
|
|
|
Fat Guy Sexting posted:Interesting that you see potential FA culpability, but I meant South Yorkshire Police and the Ambulance service. Ah poo poo. Well the same stumbling blocks exist, though honestly I don't know enough of the facts to give a decent answer. That said, I can see there being a strong case against senior police officers involved in the alteration of statements and misinforming the press -- assuming that individuals can be identified and it can be shown to have been a deliberate cover up. The case against the ambulance service is less likely; again I don't know the facts, but I would assume that it was a collective/systemic failure rather than negligence or misconduct by an individual. Ninpo posted:Would an FA employee even count as a public officer?! Well there's no legal definition of the term, so it's impossible to say! Given that 'a public office holder is an officer who discharges any duty in the discharge of which the public are interested, more clearly so if he is paid out of a fund provided by the public', one could certainly argue so.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:50
|
|
|
Chocolate Teapot posted:Here's a deeply unhinged article from seethingly bitter ex-games journalist Stu Campbell, calling the people stuck in the crush "murderers". Is that Stuart Campbell, as in the one who used to write for Amiga Power? If so..what could he possibly contribute apart from comparing it to a game of Sensible loving Soccer of Kick Off?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 15:51
|
|
|
Alex_R posted:Is that Stuart Campbell, as in the one who used to write for Amiga Power? If so..what could he possibly contribute apart from comparing it to a game of Sensible loving Soccer of Kick Off? Yeah, the guy who said he wished veteran soldiers dead or something around remembrance day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:01
|
|
|
Has anyone here ever watched Jimmy McGovern's docu-drama about Hillsborough, starring Christopher Ecclestone and Ricky Tomlinson? Just wondering because it's amazing and does a fantastic job of showing the human side of the tragedy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:10
|
|
|
Virexsi posted:
What you've said is reasonable common sense but when you end up arguing with the great unwashed do you know of anything to point to that is pretty unrefutable?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:17
|
|
|
angry armadillo posted:You don't have a bit of good reading on crowd control do you? Reason I ask is most people who don't get why lfc fans have such a problem is they say 'Liverpool fans crushed Liverpool fans, they should have just walked out' I'm confused as to what you're getting at here. Are you misreading what Virexsi said or are you yourself wondering what he's referring to by "crowd dynamics?"
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:21
|
|
|
TyChan posted:I'm confused as to what you're getting at here. Are you misreading what Virexsi said or are you yourself wondering what he's referring to by "crowd dynamics?" He's asking for literature on crowd control/dynamics so as to be better equipped to refute the moronic suggestions of "well don't push in a crowd hurrrr" that these loving idiots think is such a simple solution to the problem and thus why Liverpool fans deserved it. I had to read it a couple of times as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:23
|
|
|
Ninpo posted:He's asking for literature on crowd control/dynamics so as to be better equipped to refute the moronic suggestions of "well don't push in a crowd hurrrr" that these loving idiots think is such a simple solution to the problem and thus why Liverpool fans deserved it. Ah. Maybe these will help, Virexsi? http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/02/07/110207fa_fact_seabrook http://mindhacks.com/2007/04/10/the-dynamics-of-crowd-disasters/
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:29
|
|
|
I love the "pushing" poo poo because the horrors of being crushed to death by the sheer pressure of those around you is horrifying beyond belief, they have no conception of what that's like and think it's a bunch of loving people shoving each other. Neil Fitzmaurice's watch glass exploded out his watch from the pressure of the crush.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:32
|
|
|
Alex_R posted:Is that Stuart Campbell, as in the one who used to write for Amiga Power? If so..what could he possibly contribute apart from comparing it to a game of Sensible loving Soccer of Kick Off? It is. Incidentally he has form on this one, here's a forum thread (which I thought was another blog post) from 2009 http://s2.zetaboards.com/worldofstuart/topic/5048209/1/
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:33
|
|
|
T. Mascis posted:I love the "pushing" poo poo because the horrors of being crushed to death by the sheer pressure of those around you is horrifying beyond belief, they have no conception of what that's like and think it's a bunch of loving people shoving each other. Neil Fitzmaurice's watch glass exploded out his watch from the pressure of the crush. Twice I've been stuck in a crowd at a club that started to crush and it wasn't even that bad and they were some of the worst things I've ever experienced and can't remotely compare to what happened there
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:34
|
|
|
Yeah, it's a horrible, horrible experience.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:35
|
|
|
Adrianics posted:Has anyone here ever watched Jimmy McGovern's docu-drama about Hillsborough, starring Christopher Ecclestone and Ricky Tomlinson? Just wondering because it's amazing and does a fantastic job of showing the human side of the tragedy. Whats the name of this / what was it aired on?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:44
|
|
|
It's unpleasant enough being in the crowd as 40,000 people leave Stamford Bridge after a normal match, opening out into the whole of London, can't imagine what it would have been like that day.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:45
|
|
|
Abu Dave posted:Whats the name of this / what was it aired on? It was just called Hillsborough and it aired on ITV in 1996, I think. You can get it on DVD through Amazon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:47
|
|
|
Abu Dave posted:Whats the name of this / what was it aired on? The drama was Hillsborough from 1996. EDIT: For what little it's worth, Boris Johnson issued another(?) apology about his comments from that 2004 Spectator article. quote:I'm very, very glad that this report does lay to rest the false allegation that was made at the time about the behavior of those fans," Johnson told reporters. "I was very, very sorry in 2004 that the Spectator did carry an editorial that partially repeated those allegations, I apologized then and I apologize now. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/hillsborough-inquiry-boris-johnson-issues-131700378--sow.html Eric Cantonese fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 13, 2012 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 23:26 |
|
|
The word pushing conjures up entirely misleading imagery to me as well.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2012 16:50
|
|
