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IMO never take skeletons, the diffrence between av7 and av8 is a one of the most important parts of the game. with mighty blow you have over 50 % chance of breaking armor on a av 7 player. In tv based mm skeletons are not good, as av on LOS players is pretty important. In leagues you dont buy skeletons because you get them for free.
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Feb 14, 2013 11:09
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Khorne is straight up scary in mm, you can keep the tv really low with the easy acces to a leader rr and you only need 2 lvls on the BT before you have a claw POMB'er.
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Feb 27, 2013 21:56
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IMO piling on is essential on any player you expect to hurt the other team. Most teams are forced down the middle against khorne so even if the bloodthirster piles on he can usualy find somebody to blitz the next turn. I run my khorne team with 9 pit fighters, 1 herald and a bloodthirster.I dont have any bloodletters as they are way to fragile imo. Frenzy is a outstanding skill when you get it on discount like the pit fighters do.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:47
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deathbagel posted:I will pick up one Bloodletter and give him strip ball and tackle so he will be the ultimate ball retreival specialist. In a tournament setting you can do a lot of fun stuff with the bloodletters because of their amazing skill access, but in match making i would consider it tv bloat.
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Feb 27, 2013 23:55
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Yeah 40 tv (Strip Ball+tackle) is equal to another POMB player on the other team, khorne can’t stand up to developed bash teams, especially those with claw. Above 1500 tv is claw POMB land and a khorne team gets expensive with the demons on it.
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Feb 28, 2013 01:17
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cKnoor posted:Don't get PO on the Thirster it just limits his movement and you lose TZs that you need to get good use out of that frenzy. I blitz with my Thirster a lot and I would never give him PO he's just too good for a skill like that. Besides, that piece is at the time he has the option to get PO probably like 1/4 of your total TV. You don't leave a player like that on the ground for no reason ever. I completely disagre with this, i went for a claw POMB’er on my Khorne min/max team and so far i’m 22-1-5 with it, which is an ok win rate. IMO piling on is key to bash play in mm. You want to be piling on on every stun you get except for the extreme cases where there is something more important to do than removing players from the field. When you do a 2-1 grind you have the first couple of turns to pile on since you are not really defending and when you stall there is again lots of room for piling on. Piling on with the thirster is also great since he is an unreliable blocker and he needs to blitz in order to move. IMO it’s the only way to use him otherwise he is just a really expensive roadblock. ZigZag fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Feb 28, 2013 |
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Feb 28, 2013 04:03
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cKnoor posted:This is just an argument from ignorance, the Thirster is probably the most reliable Big Guy you have out the gate, and you can get him even more reliable with proper usage and skills. If you see him as an expensive roadblock then you're not seeing the guys true potential, making you PO argument even worse. The thirster is only reliable on the blitz, when blocking he is just as bad as the rest (at the blocking part, not losing his tz is still better than really stupid and bonehead), and no skill thats not a double can change that. Sure you give the bloodthirster guard and block around him with frenzy and you dont pile on recklessly, but when the opportunity is there. I don’t care that he can only blitz 2 squares since the cage dosent move much faster. Piling on is a reliable way to remove players, in mm where teams don’t usually have subs it’s much more important than in league play and in a match you get a lot of opportunities for piling on that doesn’t put your team at a disadvantage.
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Feb 28, 2013 14:04
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cKnoor posted:No one is going to leave a cage 2 squares away from a downed Thirster though. And guard is exactly the skill that makes the Thrister the most reliable as he never loses his TZs and on a team with so much frenzy you need guard and you need it early. I base my argument on the fact that I want to get as much use of the Thirster as possible. You seem to base yours on just 1 blitz. Sorry wasnt being clear here, i’m talking about my own cage. The thirster is part of the front screen of the cage, so if the opponent runs away no problem the cage advances. And yes we have very different play styles, but saying that piling on is useless on a thirster is just wrong. A claw POMB thirster can completely wreck a bash team and against a av7 team you use him as a guard station and pile on with your POMB herald. Remember you don't have to pile on every time. Piling on is 1 skill and given that a thirster don’t have access to that many useful skills and lvls really fast it's a great skill choice (along with break tackle, guard and mb). Another great thing about piling on is, that the ground is the safest place to be when up against claw POMB spam. And regarding fouling, not that many teams will be in that position as they dont have subs and are already running out of players and the thirster is a regen av9 player so there is a good chance that the fouling team will be worse of.
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Feb 28, 2013 16:27
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Leperflesh posted:ZigZag, are you playing against farmed teams in Auld World, or are you in Naggaroth? I think this makes a significant difference in how you construct a team for matchmaker. I play in auld and fol for mm, where a 1600 tv chaos team usually have 4 lvl 7 claw POMB players and a ag4 ball beast, and if this kind of team plays with 3 loner goats for the los you will draw them in mm at around 1400tv. I'm not complaining about since i do it my self with undead in the 1300-1400 tv and field a orc team at 1200 tv with a lvl 6 and a 7 black orc plus a pro tackle POMB blitzer.
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Mar 1, 2013 16:42
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deathbagel posted:Yes, they are. They used to be normal mummies, but for some reason GW thought they needed to be given decay and an extra point of move...
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Mar 2, 2013 01:04
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RabidWeasel posted:LRB4 mummies had G access as well! So yeah someone thought it was ok to have 4 strength 5 block mb guys backed up by a huge stack of 30k fouling assist machines on the same team. Fouling was much more brutal in LRB4 as well, so khemri was just hosed up. Forums Terrorist posted:In fairness, given Khemri don't really have any other options other than slow bashing taking away G access and MB was probably a little harsh. Yeah the khemri nerf was way to harsh, they went from a really op team to only being slightly better than the joke teams. ZigZag fucked around with this message at 02:15 on Mar 2, 2013 |
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Mar 2, 2013 02:12
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New patch today, match making is finally fixed and so is league schedules  gonna get undead back as the nr 1 ranked team in auld
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Mar 5, 2013 17:33
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Lizards are defiantly not for beginners. My advice would be orcs or undead for a beginner. That should teach you the basic cage running game and the 2-1 grind, which are the fundamentals of this game.
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Mar 7, 2013 16:25
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Apart from the reasons already mentioned, being on the ground is the safest place to be. Regarding undead team build, 4 ghouls is way too many, 2 are enough in mm and unless it’s a really long league 3 is enough. Ghouls die so hard to everything that it’s really limited what they can do on the field.
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Mar 8, 2013 12:50
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cKnoor posted:Ghouls are cool and you should get some, I'd run with 3 if it wouldn't ruin my symmetrical defensive formations. You're going to need a few unless you're planning on using a Wight as a ball carrier. Hmm.. here are the 2 most common undead defensive setups both are symmetrical (only matters for the ocd) 1 for mm 2 for league: 1 ------zzz------ --------------- ----m-z-z-m---- -----wg-gw----- 2 ------zzz------ --------------- ----m--z--m---- -----wg-gw----- -------g-------
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Mar 9, 2013 03:54
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Skeletons are up there with the norse thrower, orc goblin and dark elf assasin as the most useless players in the game(skeletons are less useless since a dirty player skeleton is ok on a league team)
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Mar 9, 2013 05:15
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cKnoor posted:Those are two formations, but they are both at best ok. They make very little use out of the teams mobility and lets most teams just run free in the sidelines. Where did you find stats for formations? I'm curious to check out some other teams. There isn’t any common stat gathering for formations, you basically have to get together with some other coaches and choose the league and team you want to analyze and then pull the replays in bbm. It’s get a lot easier to do if you know who the top coaches are and just pull theirs or limit it to wins.( so this isn’t a proper statistic and more a general feel in the community backed up by a lot of observations) Outside very specific situations you would never set up different as a good undead coach, trust me on this I know a thing or two about playing undead. The two formations I posted are almost always used by me and the other high ranking undead coaches both in FOL and OCC. In our own goon bowl this formation was also used by both undead coaches (who both have a win % with undead in online play of over 75%) It doesn’t cover the sideline which is fine since you want the opponent to score quickly while bashing in a few CAS. This formation lets you react to both sides and protects your most valuable and softest players the ghouls and wight. It also keeps the threat in your backfield to prevent stalling. There is no way to cover the sides (and no reason unless you are specifically trying to prevent a quick td, in which case something have gone wrong) without exposing your ghouls either in the middle or on in the wide zone. If you set up player in the wide zone they can get back to the other side (except ghouls but if they are exposed they are out of the game anyway). When you keep all your mobility back you can react and contain both passing and cage threats. The weakness of this formation is when the opponent doesn’t do anything and just stays and stalls on his half with an elf screen on the los. In that case you just hunt his exposed players while keeping formation, trusting in your ability to remove players from the field. And no you don’t want any skeletons, having lots of av7 players on a super bashy team is not going to work, it’s hard enough to keep the ghouls out of trouble as it is. Ma 5 doesn’t matter when you are either stunned or off the pitch.
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Mar 9, 2013 13:55
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cKnoor posted:Please don't word stuff like it's based on anything other than your own personal experience. I don't doubt that many Undead coaches use formations like these two but to claim that they are the two most common is faulty at best and just plain wrong at worst. The formations are fine but like I said they don't capitalize on mobility and a good coach using anything other than a slow bashy build would be able to punish a formation like that. Sorry about the wording regarding the setup, i play a lot of undead and in any discussion or any replay i've watched i have never seen or heard anybody set up in any other way except for very poor coaches or in very specific circumstances. But yeah its based on personal experience and should have been worded like that. In short to mid length leagues and in mm undead are definitely an extreme bash team, no other team can bring that much mb in a short time. It’s only in the long run (perpetual leagues and high TV mm) that undead gets out bashed by orcs and chaos. Skeletons break armor way more than zombies a stunned ma5 player is obviously better than a KO’ed one but is still a huge problem. And your assumptions are bullshit and it’s the same every time we discuss something you come along with poo poo like this, watch some games by high ranking undead players and you’ll see that fast teams can’t really punish this defense unless they stay on their own half and stall. Usually the will be forced to a quick td. Alternatively try taking an undead team to a big league or try getting a top 10 in one of the mm leagues like fol, auld or nagg. I play against some really good coaches in the OCC and no, punishing this defense is not something you just do, even if you are a league player who’s been around since the Styrofoam board and have a win % of 70. It allows for the quick score while keeping pressure up preventing stalling and the amount of POMB is enough to make own half stalling a problem. I think the reason you are struggling with your undead play is that you are mistaken about how undead plays at different stages of team development. They start out as the by far the bashiest team in the game and can keep that up for a long while. It is only late in the team development that you have to resort to using 4 ghouls and utilizing speed. Of course you still use speed at low TV but you do it from a position of also out strengthen and out bashing (which is why the team is one of the best). Speed and bash are the undead strengths but bash is the most important and the speed helps with that in the sense that you don’t have to move the cage as much and that you can score quick should the 2-1 grind fail. Its only in the late fase that other teams outbash you with lots of guard and mb and it is here that having 4 ma7 players with ag skills turns undead into a hybrid team.
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Mar 9, 2013 15:35
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Firos posted:Ok so for some reason I'm not allowed to put another player on the pitch, even though there are only 9 guys on the pitch Don't click or hover the mouse on any players during the opposing team's set up and it won't happen.
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Mar 27, 2013 00:22
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AlsoD posted:My undead team now has two Mummies at level 3 and they've failed to roll a double so I've given them both Break Tackle and Guard. I 've been lucky with regenerate rolls so have bucket loads of cash on hand, should I replace one and try again? Tournament or match making?
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Mar 27, 2013 16:12
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I’d say keep the mummies for 1 more level if mm and then fire if they don’t roll a double. Tournament keep both mummies. 5 RR is way too many, in mm 2 is enough; in tournament play 3 is enough unless your team has a significantly lower TV than the other teams.
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Mar 27, 2013 16:36
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Yeah the ai is terrible and now is probably the best time to just jump into online play, since its crawling with new players at the moment.
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Mar 27, 2013 16:45
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When you have 10 games online you can join "forum open league"(FOL) which is the only large moderated match making league. This means that you won't play against people abusing the various bugs and that people won't disconnect(on purpose)during games.
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Mar 27, 2013 17:07
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Washout posted:the best thing to do as a goon, is to create an amazon or human team and join the no bash league. Proceed to take as much mighty blow and piling on as possible on your blitzers and bash your way to victory. I'm pretty sure "no Bash" is the worst league to ever see the light of day. 1090 tv (without including ff) gets you a human squad with 4 tackle POMB blitzers, a thrower, 5 unskilled linemen, a dirty player and 2 rr  .
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Mar 27, 2013 19:13
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I would grab a normal skill, ma not worth it on a wight imo, unless he already have POMB, guard and tackle
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May 4, 2013 02:09
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Bootcha posted:
First of most teams are running teams, there are only 3 passing teams in the game so learning to defend against the run is the most important. But against teams that rely on ag the key is to make them roll dice, a ag4 dodge have a 1 in 6 chance of failing, so mark players while keeping enough threats in your own backfield so that they can’t stall in your half. The constant dodge rolls will make them eat up their re rolls while their players are getting removed from the pitch.
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Oct 17, 2013 18:26
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Right out the box undead is the bashiest, two st5 mighty blow guys without loner is just very good.
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Dec 14, 2013 12:58
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Rats kinda suck in mm but are really good in short tournaments, since they can get a lot of spp concentrated in a few key players quick. Any serious mm team with proper min/maxing will have several tackle POMB players at around 1200 tv. The most common approach these days to rat mm is to play without rogre and thrower, just 4 gr, 2 sv and 2 line rats. That will either make you go up against teams that have around 150 tv less than you and at sub 1300 tv will often mean they have no way to stop your blodge ss gr. Or you will atleast not get chrushed by teams abusing the mm in the same way. The down side is that you give away a wizard, but skaven is one of the teams that can deal with that easily due to speed and ag. 1ttd is just rolling the dice and praying, the opponents knows its coming since it only makes sense to do on turn 8 or 16, so you still have to make the 3 dodges.
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Dec 14, 2013 19:55
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uPen posted:The Skaven OTTD he's talking about happens every drive, me and Burg both have ottd skaven teams and our last game's final score was something ridiculous like 8-7. And yeah, Skaven teams tend to accumulate SPP on a handful of players while everyone else is left to get murdered. But why would you ever do that? It maks no sense unless you are not playing to win. GNU Order posted:Counter-Counterpoint: If you try to run 0TTD skaven in a format that is not tourney or matchmaking nobody will want to play against you because the game will be boring as poo poo. Also it will be boring as poo poo for you, the player, because it forces the other person to counter your 0TTD with the 2-1 grind, turtling strategy.  everything in this game revolves around the 2-1 grind, there will always be 1 team that will benefit from it, except from some extreme cases like pro-elf vs wood elf without a tree.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:32
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Coolguye posted:2-1 grind only really applies during an agile team vs a bashy team, because it constitutes the only way the bashy team can even THINK about getting a win out of the game with their lower scoring potential. Bash vs Bash and agile vs agile have a lot of different methods of play. This only really applies in certain mirror match scenarios, as long as you got a single point more in av or more MB you should 2-1 grind. A delf team should never get in a shoot out with a pro elf team. The only time you would ever consider choosing to receive the ball is when you got so much claw pomb that you can end the match in the first couple of turns and even here it often a bad choice since you put your faith in the dice. Stallig is one of the hardest things to do properly in this game and moving a four point cage down to the endzone in 8 turns without rolling a single d6 and always keeping the corners of the cage clear, is the highest level of play this game has to offer.
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Dec 16, 2013 10:52
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Coolguye posted:And when was the last time taking Block was a bad idea? uhh when you want wrestle instead or when min/maxing. BB is a drinking game and even us who play at the competetive level treat it as such. The randomness is what makes the game what it is, no matter if i aim to 2-1 grind and roll less than 10 d6 during the game some thing is still gonna go wrong and present a fun or absurd situation.
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Dec 17, 2013 18:21
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Miltank posted:Is there a goon league for this? Me and some of my buddies just picked it up and are looking to play with people besides eachother. just join Auld its not as bad as people make it out to be and you can always find a game by using the match making feature.
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Dec 17, 2013 23:28
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Leperflesh posted:Jesus christ no. Join Naggaroth. Auld is packed full of farmed teams. Nag requires you to join with a fresh team. I got several teams in both and the only real diffrence between the two is that its harder to get a match in nagg. There is no diffrence between meeting a proper optimized team thats played 50+ matches or meeting a farmed one. I played probaly around 700 matches in auld an i have only encountered a few farmed team. As far as i know its only furril who really does that anyway and he at least takes it to the next level.
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Dec 18, 2013 00:56
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cmndstab posted:Coaches ragequitting is the main reason to avoid Auld when you start. Nothing like getting your rear end kicked for a few games only to have the coach ragequit as soon as you start doing well. Thats the same for any league, it even happens in goon bowl, ragequiting and calling people faggots is the cornerstones of online gaming.
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Dec 18, 2013 13:40
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Coolguye posted:I can't speak to the Goonbowl since I haven't played in one, but the GGL, the open league we play and the one people have been suggesting instead, has pretty much a total dearth of this shittiness. I've played many dozens of games with those guys and only had one guy ragequit on me. And that was after I killed an AG3 Sure Hands Ogre (on an Ogre team). And the Apothecary rerolled to Dead. Rage quitting in open league play is the norm, i mean you can't really expect someone to waste an hour of their life when the match is for all purpose over. And wanting to sit there for an hour and killing of your opponents team when he cant fight back is just as lovely. Yeah some people, mostly dwarf coaches, take it to far and quit as soon as they lose a player, but thats a win.. checkmate in 3 moves wuhu.. Scheduled league play like goon bowl is diffrent since ragequitting have a huge impact on everybody and can really ruin a league.
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Dec 19, 2013 14:42
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wrong thread
ZigZag fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Jan 26, 2014 |
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Jan 26, 2014 23:32
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NiknudStunod posted:I have been playing in the orca cola cup league now for about a year and a half and after losing almost my entire skaven team this season I will be switching to a new Khemri team for next season. The last time I played Khemri it was for four nine game seasons. I had leveled up 5 TGs in that time to level 3+ and not one got block and I just couldn't compete with the other high tv teams that had block. In fact the 1 death I had was from a both down. I guess my question is should I fire a TG if he hits a certain level and bring in a new one to try and get block? Yeah in the occ set up you should fire Them since they Will get clawed too easily without block in division 3 and 2. The only problem is that it's pretty hard to lvl up a new tg before facing the 2000 tv claw teams in division 3 unless you throw matches to stay in the lower divisions.
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Aug 7, 2014 10:17
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yeah the turnover rule is one of the best game mechanics ever, i played bb in the edition before turnovers and it was a very stale and predictable game. But blocks and dodges are never risk free and without the block skill it would be almost impossible to plan anything since the chance of a turnover from a 2db without block is huge. If you wanna play high risk high reward you play skaven or elves where you need to roll dice to win.
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Aug 7, 2014 16:41
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Jester Mcgee posted:I just picked up this game because of GNU Order's LP, and I can't figure out who I want to play. Any advice on that front for a brand new player would be appreciated. Also, is the Giant Goon League still the place to go for games? There are only really 2 types of teams ag4 and ag3, ag4 means you can pass, dodge and hand-off, where ag3 means that one guy picks up the ball and then you protect him with a cage as you grind down the pitch. My advice would be to start a solid ag3 team with lots of skills (orcs or undead) and a wood elf team, then after a couple of matches with each you can see what you prefer.
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Aug 8, 2014 17:17
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| # ¿ May 15, 2024 20:17 |
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NiknudStunod posted:There are actually a lot of organized leagues out there. I like the orca cola league. They separate divisions by your tv score so you are going to be playing against teams that have around the same spp as you. Orca cola (OCC) is imo the best run league there is and i've played in it for around 8 seasons now. as long as you can manage a game a week its the best choice i think. But division are not seperated by TV, you get promoted or relegated based on your placement, so there can be a huge tv diffrence between teams in a division. I spent 2 seasons in div 2 and 1 with a TV 1200 undead team against teams with an average of 2400 TV.
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Aug 8, 2014 23:13
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