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Fightest posted:I don't quite understand why so many insist that Superman absolutely needs a credible threat to challenge him. There are some issues and threats out there that can be solved by a megaton one-two punch that absolutely should not ever threaten Superman.
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Dec 17, 2012 13:51
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What is the explanation for Zod showing up on Earth? If I recall (and it's been years since I saw the other movie) that he's in the magic space glass and accidentally lands on the Moon and then hops over to Earth to see what's up. I'm not real familiar with the Superman/Zod background, so I'm just curious what his motivation is for being on Earth. Is there some connection pre-Krypton destruction with him or Clark or Jor-El? Or is it more of a "Oh you're also powerful, let's fight. Winner gets this planet filled with squishy people." What's the speculation for his arrival in the movie? Knight2m fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Dec 17, 2012 |
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Dec 17, 2012 14:33
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Knight2m posted:What is the explanation for Zod showing up on Earth? If I recall (and it's been years since I saw the other movie) that he's in the magic space glass and accidentally lands on the Moon and then hops over to Earth to see what's up. I'm speculating a Dragon Ball Radditz sort of deal.
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Dec 17, 2012 14:41
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Just chiming in to agree; saw the Hobbit in 3D yesterday and wow, the use of 3D in the trailer is easily the best use of it I've ever seen. Plus I'm stoked for the movie anyway.
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Dec 17, 2012 14:43
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Superman literally punched the slums, and threatend slum lords and wife beaters. In one of the latest issues of Action Comics, Superman hunts down a child murderer. He then calls together the Justice League to talk about human problems, and what to do with the murderer's pet hamsters. Characters like Zod, the Parasite, Metallo, and Brainiac represent various evils, and it's cathartic to watch Superman punch the poo poo out of them. A good Superman movie will balance the Super and the Man.
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Dec 17, 2012 14:46
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I always believed that every supervillain should be intimately associated with some category of real world crime. No more Jokers who are just in it for the lulz or Brainiacs with fantastical motives. Special bonus if the villain's powers complement his criminal speciality. That way, the superhero can deal with a real issue, but you also get a nice super-brawl.
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Dec 17, 2012 15:22
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Knight2m posted:
I could see their ship being out in space (exiled perhaps, or possibly on a prison ship which the Zod takes control of) when Krypton goes boom. Add some silly sci-fi logic where they track Kal-El's ship to Earth using comic book science.
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Dec 17, 2012 16:04
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Baron Bifford posted:I always believed that every supervillain should be intimately associated with some category of real world crime. No more Jokers who are just in it for the lulz or Brainiacs with fantastical motives. Special bonus if the villain's powers complement his criminal speciality. That way, the superhero can deal with a real issue, but you also get a nice super-brawl. Luthor is as white collar criminal as you get when he's not being a mad scientist.
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Dec 17, 2012 16:10
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In the 90s cartoon, Jor-El placed a Phantom Zone device in his son's ship. He had a plan to evacuate everyone to the Phantom Zone except for one guy who could find a new planet, open a door and bring everyone out. I think he forgot to remove it when that fell apart.
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Dec 17, 2012 17:11
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Die Laughing posted:Characters like Zod, the Parasite, Metallo, and Brainiac represent various evils, and it's cathartic to watch Superman punch the poo poo out of them. A good Superman movie will balance the Super and the Man. Absolutely. Superman generally falls flat when they try to do either too much super or too much man. It's important for Clark to be the relatable guy from Kansas who grew up on a farm, but when the time comes, he needs to do what we all wish we could: rip open our shirts and save the day with nothing but sheer will and a strong sense of justice to back him up. Superman doesn't offer salvation, he offers justice. An actual force of justice would only conform to the will of the people it seeks to protect and not abuse that to its own benefit. This is why Superman tends to work best when he's fighting despots and external physical threats. Things become morally black and white in the immediacy of larger-than-life physical danger. He's not performing moral calculus when he notices a plane falling out of the sky, he's reacting to his "reasonable man" instincts. Superman is justice given force. It's really hard to embody that without becoming a contradiction. People often ask why he doesn't attack things like child sex slavery etc. At what point do his actions become imposing his own will upon others? Is it alright for someone, who at the end of the day, was raised in Kansas to start flexing his muscles on the people of West Africa? In essence, this is what separates him from Zod (at least by some characterizations). Zod thinks that he can create the perfect world through force. Superman is the well-intentioned everyman American seeking to preserve the status quo so that people can decide for themselves and control their own destinies. When it comes to social justice, Clark Kent the man forwards his beliefs and ideals on the more even playing field of journalism rather than punching Joe Schmoe like Batman. The comics are slowly making a move toward a more worldly Clark Kent/Superman, but it often reeks of editorially mandated progressivism as brought to you by the makers of Power Girl's chest window. This involves things like Superman beating up his prostitute girlfriend's pimp and intervening in African gang wars. Thankfully, this movie seems to be taking the classic approach. There's really only one trend that appears in the trailer that I dislike. Over time I think we've kind of retroactively imposed this "Christ" narrative on Superman and I won't argue that it's not there, because it is. Super-Jesus is for better or worse, part of the popular Superman mythos, even though I would argue that it doesn't work, and constantly drawing empty parallels is kind of amateurish. Jor-El didn't send his only son to die for our sins, it was a last second act of parental desperation, if anything, to redeem Krypton. His adopted parents are mortal and he's asks the same questions we do. He's fallible. He has no divine muse whispering in his ear, just the moral compass he was raised with. Superman doesn't offer salvation or absolution, he offers justice in the most extreme and fantastical situations, and he does so as an embodiment of the "reasonable man". He might be an unobtainable ideal in the same manner as Jesus, but it's hardly the same ideal.
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Dec 18, 2012 05:30
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Baron Bifford posted:I always believed that every supervillain should be intimately associated with some category of real world crime. No more Jokers who are just in it for the lulz or Brainiacs with fantastical motives. Special bonus if the villain's powers complement his criminal speciality. That way, the superhero can deal with a real issue, but you also get a nice super-brawl. It's sort of like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen - by the end of the story he just doesn't give a gently caress about humanity because the scope of his power and knowledge is so much greater than theirs; it's like genuinely caring about the well-being about individual ants in an ant colony on anything other than an observational, scientific level. Superman's whole schtick is that he shouldn't give a poo poo about humanity, but he does (and as mentioned earlier, Lex Luthor sees that as rightfully weird and unrealistic given Superman's abilities). He's an anomaly, which is why it would make it even weirder if one of his intergalactic super-villain enemies cared about "real world crime". Unless you're not talking literally, and rather that their actions should metaphorically represent real-world crime or something, in which case disregard everything I just said. 
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Dec 18, 2012 11:00
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Sure, Superman can have the occasional cosmic conqueror, but most of his villains should be tied to some real-world criminal racket (keep in mind that most villains still need to make a living somehow). It will make Superman feel a little more revelant.
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Dec 18, 2012 11:46
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Baron Bifford posted:Sure, Superman can have the occasional cosmic conqueror, but most of his villains should be tied to some real-world criminal racket (keep in mind that most villains still need to make a living somehow). It will make Superman feel a little more revelant. I don't know, it seems like a personification of Justice would be well-matched with ideologically motivated villains -- you just have to be willing to sometimes villainize philosophies other than "pure selfishness" and "hatred of all life." EDIT: would vs. wouldn't 
Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 12:04 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 11:51
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't know, it seems like a personification of Justice wouldn be well-matched with ideologically motivated villains -- you just have to be willing to sometimes villainize philosophies other than "pure selfishness" and "hatred of all life." The amount of philosophies in the real world that can be easily and unambigulously villainized can keep us going for dozens of Superman movies before we start to stretch thin. As for Superman bringing justice or salvation, it can get perhaps a bit semantic, but the former implies some sort of revenge fantasy, where the bad guys are punished for their misdeeds. I feel that that is less important for Superman than the latter, where instead it is a power fantasy about being able to rescue people in need. Justice brings us Superman punching drug dealers and slum lords, Salvation brings us Superman reassuring a girl that her doctor was just late in traffic. Here it's a matter of taste - I would prefer a Salvation-based Superman story, but punching dudes also has its place.
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Dec 18, 2012 12:03
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I don't know, it seems like a personification of Justice would be well-matched with ideologically motivated villains -- you just have to be willing to sometimes villainize philosophies other than "pure selfishness" and "hatred of all life."
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Dec 18, 2012 12:20
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Fightest posted:The amount of philosophies in the real world that can be easily and unambigulously villainized can keep us going for dozens of Superman movies before we start to stretch thin. I'm not necessarily advocating for fantasy at all, is my point. Superman beating up a slum lord could easily be framed not as "yeah, gently caress guys who abuse their power" but "this inhumanly moral and naive godlike alien is imposing his values on us." Until he's faced with beings of his own caliber, he's not a hero, he's the imposition of moral order from on high, for better or worse. Like, instead of using Darkseid or whoever as a way to avoid the contradiction between Superman's idealism and the complexity of real life, deliberately highlight that they're what keeps him busy enough to stay out of it. Make "Superman should be an idea measured against other ideas" part of the narrative instead of the nature of the narrative. Baron Bifford posted:The villains should have a grounding in reality, otherwise you're just talking very vague stuff that means little. At worst, you get a Grant Morrison villain, who spouts a lot of silly stuff about good and evil but in practice is just a weirdo who likes killing people. I think you're being slightly unfair to Grant Morrison, but that's not quite what I'm after anyways. Superman is already one level abstracted from real people -- it's right there in his name. His enemies should be too, and when they aren't, it should raise serious questions about how he deals with them. (i.e. Lex Luthor.) EDIT: Or to put it more succinctly: a world where Superman exists literally is a world where any myth can exist literally. If he were the only one, he would be a monster, and while I personally enjoy that kind of story, that's not the point of the Superman character. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Dec 18, 2012 |
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Dec 18, 2012 12:34
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I think we're arguing towards the same point. While it is clumsy - you're right - to have Superman literally beat up a banana republic dictator, for example, it is entirely appropriate for him to beat up Darkseid - the cosmic representation of fascism itself. It becomes allegorical, but the values are still there - good and morality win over subjugation and oppression. Much the same with any of the horrible real-world poo poo out there - while Superman may well be out-of-place beating up organ traffickers and African warlords, attaching a larger-than-life villain to represent these and having Superman fight them is fine. They just have to be villains you love to hate, there can never be doubt that they are assholes and need to be taken down.
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Dec 18, 2012 13:15
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I'm not saying there can never be any doubt, in fact I'm in favor of occasional doubt. But it should be evoked deliberately to make a point, and a morally grey Superman story should generally be about him making honest mistakes.
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Dec 18, 2012 13:33
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Fightest posted:I think we're arguing towards the same point. While it is clumsy - you're right - to have Superman literally beat up a banana republic dictator, for example, it is entirely appropriate for him to beat up Darkseid - the cosmic representation of fascism itself. It becomes allegorical, but the values are still there - good and morality win over subjugation and oppression.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:17
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This Super-Man movie could use more kids getting raped, imho.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:44
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Baron Bifford posted:My thought is a super-villain who runs a massive child sex-trafficking ring. We can see Superman beat up somebody whom we have a proper reason to hate and rescue genuine victims of the kind we agonize over in the news all the time. Is it weird I think this sounds like a terrible, uncomfortable idea for a Superman movie? As someone mentioned, the problem with that is it makes us face real-world problems and realize how much reality sucks because we don't have a Superman who can deal with these problems. That and it sort of just sounds like it'd turn into revenge fantasy, which someone pointed out WAS sort of what he did when he first got created. And then you sort of have him standing there as a bad example to people. "It's ok to attack people and go outside the law if they're a bad person" which can easily start encompassing people who aren't ACTUALLY bad people. Superman doesn't work as a symbol of vigilantism, which is kind of why he's shown to be this morally peerless boyscout. If he's anything less, from the standpoint of a guy who can punch your head off your body, it starts to look very dark. Not to mention, really, that's the real world topic you'd want to see in a Superman movie?
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Dec 18, 2012 15:46
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The Punisher is the revenge fantasy guy; that's not really the current point of Superman and kind of pointless when we have characters created specifically to get into the implications of that.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:50
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Xenomrph posted:It's sort of like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen - by the end of the story he just doesn't give a gently caress about humanity because the scope of his power and knowledge is so much greater than theirs; it's like genuinely caring about the well-being about individual ants in an ant colony on anything other than an observational, scientific level. Watchmen ends with Dr. Manhattan discovering a newfound appreciation and respect for humankind. "I think I'll go create some." Baron Bifford posted:My thought is a super-villain who runs a massive child sex-trafficking ring. We can see Superman beat up somebody whom we have a proper reason to hate and rescue genuine victims of the kind we agonize over in the news all the time. What the gently caress
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Dec 18, 2012 15:50
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Baron Bifford posted:My thought is a super-villain who runs a massive child sex-trafficking ring. We can see Superman beat up somebody whom we have a proper reason to hate and rescue genuine victims of the kind we agonize over in the news all the time. That honestly doesn't sound interesting at all even on paper. It doesn't feel like the plot to a superhero movie.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:58
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Fishylungs posted:Not to mention, really, that's the real world topic you'd want to see in a Superman movie? How about nuclear disarmament? Don't see how a Superman movie about that could go wrong.
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Dec 18, 2012 15:58
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Gyges posted:How about nuclear disarmament? Don't see how a Superman movie about that could go wrong. Quality of Quest for Peace aside, that was still one of the coolest things Superman has ever done.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:06
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I said come in! posted:That honestly doesn't sound interesting at all even on paper. It doesn't feel like the plot to a superhero movie.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:12
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No, it's him grooming Honor Roll children in the back of his spaceship.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:14
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Gyges posted:How about nuclear disarmament? Don't see how a Superman movie about that could go wrong. Superman's deadliest foe yet is created when he throws a giant sack of child sex slaves into the sun
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Dec 18, 2012 16:24
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Superman's deadliest foe yet is created when he throws a giant sack of child sex slaves into the sun I'm surprised he never did something like this in his infamous silver age covers.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:29
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:
Bingo. This is kind of what I imagine arguing with Geoff Johns would be like. We've already pointed out countless times why this falls flat and how it would both contradict the meaning of the character and make for a bland movie. Aside from his almost super-intelligence, the only reason Lex Luthor even works as an antagonist is because he deliberately and repeatedly attacks Superman. Superman doesn't seek conflict with Lex Luthor, Lex Luthor seeks conflict with Superman. If they want to redefine Superman that's one thing. If they want to have Superman using his powers to advance social causes (ala Morrisson's recent Action Comics) because he's young and idealistic that's another. I'm perfectly fine with there being several incarnations of Superman and what he represents. However, I believe that the classic approach (ala Superman for All Seasons, All-Star Superman) offers the best chance at making a good movie. At the end of the day, if he wants to see it, he can want to see it. I'd recommend Superman: Earth-Two if he hasn't read it already.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:31
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Fightest posted:I think we're arguing towards the same point. While it is clumsy - you're right - to have Superman literally beat up a banana republic dictator, for example, it is entirely appropriate for him to beat up Darkseid - the cosmic representation of fascism itself. It becomes allegorical, but the values are still there - good and morality win over subjugation and oppression. This works for me. It makes sense to take a character who's so far beyond "a good person" that it's comical and pit him against a character who's the same distance in the opposite direction. Darkseid in particular is great for this because the character is over-the-top, Emperor Palpatine evil while also being endlessly quotable.
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Dec 18, 2012 16:31
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Fightest posted:Much the same with any of the horrible real-world poo poo out there - while Superman may well be out-of-place beating up organ traffickers and African warlords, attaching a larger-than-life villain to represent these and having Superman fight them is fine. They just have to be villains you love to hate, there can never be doubt that they are assholes and need to be taken down.
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Dec 18, 2012 18:13
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Wapole Languray posted:Watching this god fight what is basically a stupid real-estate scam feels cheap. The original 1970s Superman movie had a real-estate scam as the villain's plan and it's still pretty fondly remembered.
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Dec 18, 2012 22:31
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Wapole Languray posted:This is also why so many people think Superman is boring. They limit him to realistic conflicts, because they try and put Space Moses in the same box as SWAT Zorro. Superman works best as a legendary character, where he is a living metaphor. He IS Truth, Justice, and the American Way. Good superman stories treat him as a mythological figure. This is the main reason Returns fell flat for a lot of people. Superman Returns was expressly about that conflict between the mythological cultural expression of Superman and the desire for fans to have it captured and pinned down via "tactical realism" or canon. It's why it overtly rehashes the plot from the original.
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Dec 18, 2012 22:43
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Baron Bifford posted:Sure, Superman can have the occasional cosmic conqueror, but most of his villains should be tied to some real-world criminal racket (keep in mind that most villains still need to make a living somehow). It will make Superman feel a little more revelant. There was a wonderful story on QI (A British panel show) about how a man had infiltrated the KKK, learnt about them, then written a script for the Superman radio show where Superman fights them. After the serial was finished, recruitment for the KKK dropped off to almost nothing. That's what a big deal Superman is. That said, I still want to see a super throwdown on the big screen.
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Dec 18, 2012 23:21
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Baron Bifford posted:Maybe my proposal for a child trafficker was a little touchy, but its the touchiest issues that rile us the most, eh? 
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Dec 19, 2012 02:57
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Baron Bifford posted:Maybe my proposal for a child trafficker was a little touchy, but its the touchiest issues that rile us the most, eh? I'm guessing its the fact that an incredibly serious issue like that would be better served in a movie where the protagonist wasn't an alien in a cape.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:42
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Skwirl posted:I have one tactical realism complaint/question about the trailer. I know contrails have nothing to do with exhaust, but why does Superman have two instead of one? Umm, everything I have ever known about contrails says they have a lot to do with exhaust, if we are referring to the outlet of a jet engine.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:44
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Tommy 2.0 posted:Umm, everything I have ever known about contrails says they have a lot to do with exhaust, if we are referring to the outlet of a jet engine. Superman is incredibly gassy.
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Dec 19, 2012 03:51
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