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Black Bones posted:Yes a Superman movie wouldn't contain mythological allusions because . . No, it would and it should; my point was that just because the new Noah film has decided that their was a major conflict concerning control of the Ark doesn't mean poo poo to this guys argument. I was just shilling for the film of the year. Superman does and should contain religious allusions.
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Feb 11, 2014 01:11
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computer parts posted:Zod is more of a twisted version of Noah in MoS, complete with a ship designed to remake life on Earth. I say again, no really it isn't.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:09
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Ferrinus posted:The only thing Jor-El was proven correct about was that everyone who stayed behind died. ...huh, "everyone who stayed behind" describes the entire Kryptonian race save like a dozen people. That's so strange, it's almost as though there were extenuating factors preventing a mass exodus from the planet. There's no evidence in the film that there were extenuating factors. These are just fan-fiction explanations about how nobody can leave the planet. There's also nothing about decadence; it's only asserted that they were forced to harvest the planet's core for purposes unknown. Decadence would be a dwarf king hoarding so much gold that he alienates other nations and attracts a dragon, and wouldn't you know it, that was actually depicted on screen in another film? "Abandonment of space flight" is an unexplained expository fact that gives us nothing to react to. The destruction of Krypton is a by-the-numbers downfall of an ancient society that we're supposed to believe is tragic, but there aren't any reasons to feel anything about it because we're not shown anything to react to. I'm such an rear end in a top hat because I expect movies to make sense and make me feel things. Remember when movies made you feel things? Watch out, incoming trailer line: "I WILL FIND HIM!" Well, that sure justifies why we're watching a pointless legal proceeding instead of anything interesting about the once-great alien civilization of which Superman is the last living member. Hbomberguy posted:This isn't meant to be an accurate simulation of the superman origin myth, it is a film with themes. The fact your main problem is there isn't a 30-second scene that sets up in tactically-realistic terms why what happened happened, maybe you are failing to read the film. Typically when a 'tiny piece' of the film is missing it is either missing to make a point, or isn't actually missing you just missed it because RussCrowe and Zod didn't turn to the camera and say why they can't leave and then cut to shots of screaming people in the streets. That's a cop-out. Not only does Krypton take up the first half-hour of the film, it's a vital part of Superman's identity. You're supposed to give a poo poo about it. Instead of acknowledging the bad writing and moving on, people are making things up about there being no space travel, no warping technology, escape being impossible, etc. There's nothing in the film about any of that because it's full steam ahead for the first 30 minutes with lots of spaceships and explosions because this is 2013's answer to Superman Returns, baby. Krypton isn't Valinor; it's the Shire. It's one-third of the core identities of Superman: Smallville, Daily Planet, and Krypton. Toady fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 02:17
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:I say again, no really it isn't. That's some hard hitting criticism you have there. Toady posted:
Rewatch the movie.
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Feb 11, 2014 02:22
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Toady posted:There's also nothing about decadence; 
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Feb 11, 2014 03:42
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Toady posted:We're supposed to give a poo poo about this doomed world that Superman came from. Not always. This Krypton seems based mostly on Byrne’s version of Krypton which was depicted as a world that almost deserved to be destroyed. Toady posted:What the hell is the point of legal proceedings if they're all going to die? Do they deny it will happen? Because that’s how things are done on Krypton. This is a society made up of people who are born to have a set purpose in society (or raised to believe that they do). The purpose of the Council is to maintain order and traditions. Criminals are sentenced to the Phantom Zone. That’s how things are done and the end of the world is not going to stop them from fulfilling their purpose.
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Feb 11, 2014 03:54
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Toady posted:There's no evidence in the film that there were extenuating factors. These are just fan-fiction explanations about how nobody can leave the planet. There's also nothing about decadence; it's only asserted that they were forced to harvest the planet's core for purposes unknown. Decadence would be a dwarf king hoarding so much gold that he alienates other nations and attracts a dragon, and wouldn't you know it, that was actually depicted on screen in another film? "Abandonment of space flight" is an unexplained expository fact that gives us nothing to react to. The destruction of Krypton is a by-the-numbers downfall of an ancient society that we're supposed to believe is tragic, but there aren't any reasons to feel anything about it because we're not shown anything to react to. See, you, like, literally don't know how to do this. You're pretending like you can critically evaluate things and determine what is or isn't consistent, and what does or doesn't make sense, but in actuality you repeatedly fail to do so. You're dismissing as "fan fiction" the obvious contents of the plot. It's like calling it "fan fiction" that Weyland-Yutani doesn't value the lives of its employees, or that the Predator operates according to a code of conduct. Like, each and every sentence in the post I have quoted is wrong, except for the one about dwarves. Do you understand me? Your description of the movie which you ostensibly watched is so flagrantly incorrect that room exists to do a line-by-line on one of your paragraphs. It's amazing. Here, let's play a game. I'm going to claim that Superman had telepathic mind control powers, Professor X style, which he could have used to instantly incapacitate Zod at any time. Agree or disagree? If so, why?
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Feb 11, 2014 05:30
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I know this is fanfic territory, and I'm willing to be called out on that, but the film presents a lot of ideas that we can put together into a working theory. Why is there a military caste? Who or what is it protecting, and from who and what? The first is said quite often: It's protecting Krypton, its people and their society from threats. However, there is almost never a mention of outside threats from other worlds, nor is there any indication other than Zod of internal treason. Is there a connection between the continued existence of a powerful military caste, the rise of the predetermined genetic caste system, the isolationist and xenophobic personality of the Kryptonian culture and the 'failures' of the colonies? I think the film gives enough elements to piece together a plausible theory to explain how all that is connected.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:09
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The actual specifics of such a theory would in fact be fan fiction, but the general state of affairs of Kryptonians being corrupt, decadent, and planet-locked are straight-up facts of the plot. "Fan fiction" would be, say, inventing things that would allow all the Kryptonians could easily have escaped their exploding planet, and assuming that the absence of those things was some sort of executive mistake rather than a sign that you're making poo poo up whole cloth.
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Feb 11, 2014 06:21
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I'm sort of thinking along the lines of, "If they retreated from colonies due at around the same time as the strictly isolationist and predetermined caste system of Krypton, was the failure of the colonies intentional or a byproduct?" It seems that a colony would eventually start to become distinct in some way from Krypton proper, which wouldn't mesh well with the new status quo of the Krypton. If the military caste's function was to protect Krypton, its people and its society, would it be an easy enough extension of that philosophy that colonies made up of those not born directly of the Codex on Krypton weren't 'really' Kryptonians by that belief system?
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Feb 11, 2014 06:45
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I think 'reasons' applies in every single argument here.
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Feb 11, 2014 13:28
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Toady posted:That's a cop-out. Not only does Krypton take up the first half-hour of the film, it's a vital part of Superman's identity. You're supposed to give a poo poo about it. Instead of acknowledging the bad writing and moving on, people are making things up about there being no space travel, no warping technology, escape being impossible, etc. There's nothing in the film about any of that because it's full steam ahead for the first 30 minutes with lots of spaceships and explosions because this is 2013's answer to Superman Returns, baby. Krypton isn't Valinor; it's the Shire. It's one-third of the core identities of Superman: Smallville, Daily Planet, and Krypton. I genuinely feel pity for people who can't enjoy a movie because there was an ideal couple of seconds missing that would have established things the 'right' way. Krypton is a corrupt and decadent planet full of idiots and they die because of it. Allow me to cite my evidence since you keep claiming there is none 'in the film': One: Krypton is run by a bunch of extravagantly-dressed old people, implying they have been in charge for a long time, making accusations of corruption more believable - it led me to conclude they were using their power to remain in power and not do anything particularly useful. Two: Rigid caste system. There are no more organic births on Krypton, Kal being the first in a long time - the caste system's ridiculous effects on society are made extremely obvious through this. The Kryptonians hosed themselves. Three: Stupid caste system. Despite people being born with specific identities and purposes in place, it appears possible to transcend it and make a mockery of the whole thing if you bother to do some research or training. See here the scene where the scientist character outsmarts and defeats a bunch of military characters. Again, something is very wrong with Krypton. Four: Jor El and Zod both agree with each other about how the old council is part of the problem that hosed the planet up and that, for reasons we don't particularly need to know but can be intuited by everything else that has happened, everyone on Krypton is already dead. However because of part Three, Zod is incapable of seeing beyond his own caste's purpose and seeing the big picture, AKA this entire system is loving everyone including himself. Since Jor is a smart scientist who is right about everybody being dead, I interpreted his to mean Jor is a smart scientist who is right about everybody being dead. Five: To escape the planet Jor-El builds a spaceship for his son. This implies a world where escaping the planet is not as simple as using those ships we saw - they don't have enough fuel, propulsion, or can't withstand the vaccuum of space, or don't have the resources for keeping large groups of people alive during long space travel. Or they're so stupid they don't know how to use them. Any of these can be true because the film implies one of them has to be and then gets on with the actual plot. Six: Krypton as a whole is so stupid that they don't think to just lock themselves in the phantom zone and then free themselves at an indeterminate time, implying they are loving stupid, and are trapped in their ways so badly they will punish a person at a trial rather than scrambling for safety - this might have been what Jor was predicting, people not wanting to leave krypton or break its rules. They probably wouldn't have tried to leave Krypton even if they knew it was dying, which they probably don't. Who would tell them? Seven: Because it is a suparman film and you already know krypton is dead when the film begins, so why not take the time to focus on things that are more thematic to the story than rehashing the hows and whys of the planet's destruction? Why not, since we all know krpyton is hosed from fade in, explore Krypton's military, its technology designs, its high society? I don't even like Man of Steel very much and I've only seen it once. All this stuff is extremely obvious. Edit: Toady, you and Baron Bifford should team up and write a Superman script that 'makes sense' and isn't corrupted by that 'idiot hack' Goyer. If you can actually do that, I will make it for you. Then we can compare the two. Hbomberguy fucked around with this message at 14:16 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 13:58
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Hbomberguy posted:One: Krypton is run by a bunch of extravagantly-dressed old people, implying they have been in charge for a long time, making accusations of corruption more believable - it led me to conclude they were using their power to remain in power and not do anything particularly useful. Hbomberguy posted:Two: Rigid caste system. There are no more organic births on Krypton, Kal being the first in a long time - the caste system's ridiculous effects on society are made extremely obvious through this. The Kryptonians hosed themselves. Hbomberguy posted:Three: Stupid caste system. Despite people being born with specific identities and purposes in place, it appears possible to transcend it and make a mockery of the whole thing if you bother to do some research or training. See here the scene where the scientist character outsmarts and defeats a bunch of military characters. Again, something is very wrong with Krypton. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 14:30
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Baron Bifford posted:Those parts of the movies can't have meaning, because that's movie stuff! It's all movie stuff. Rewatch all movies with this in mind, and get back to me.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:34
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Krypton is run by morons who hosed their planet and didn't know what to do except point fingers because we're a bunch of morons who are loving the planet and don't know what to do except point fingers. Thats basically it.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:37
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Zod says as much when he crashes in on the Council meeting.
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Feb 11, 2014 14:43
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I still partially wish that given so many Kryptonians did survive that Jor-El should have lived long enough to be strung up as 'co-conspirator', too. Regardless of anything else, he DID pretty much cost their society the Codex. While people argue that the society would be pretty stupid to not have a back-up source of the Codex, one is never mentioned and it IS an element of the plot where if a back-up did exist, then a lot of the actions taken by characters wouldn't have been needed.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:07
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Baron Bifford posted:In any case, in all societies the top leaders tend be old and dress well. 
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Feb 11, 2014 15:09
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Yeah, then Zod wouldn't have had to worry about Kal. He could have just gone and got one of the many spares from Kryp- oh. Oh yeah. The explosion. Am I the last remaining person who still loves Obama?
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Feb 11, 2014 15:10
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JediTalentAgent posted:I still partially wish that given so many Kryptonians did survive that Jor-El should have lived long enough to be strung up as 'co-conspirator', too. Regardless of anything else, he DID pretty much cost their society the Codex. If we accept the previous premise that there's basically no way to get off of Krypton then him spiriting the Codex away means about nothing. Krypton is a dead man walking, whether a piece of garnish that doesn't prove useful for 18 years is there or not is kind of inconsequential.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:12
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Prior to the planet blowing up, if there was more than a single Codex, then Zod's efforts that resulted in it being the ONLY CODEX thanks the planet blowing up could have been avoided. From my recollection: The One and Only Codex, the holiest genetic relic of their planet, the key to Zod's plans to rebuild their culture in his imagined perfect vision, was stolen by Jor-El. This leads Zod to abandon his leadership of the coup to chase down Jor-El to reclaim it, which possibly helped his forces get routed, which possibly lead to his capture and sentencing. If there were additional Codexes on the planet, then he could have afforded ignore Jor-El for the time being to focus on the coup, solidify his power, secure the other Codexes, etc. The Codex being gone, in the eyes of Krypton, was a death sentence unto itself if they were so hopelessly incapable of seeing any other way of the continuation of their species without it.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:22
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The characters tell you how the society works in detail, and the film presents the results as an imploding Giger hell world. I will grant that, if you look 'beyond' both the sound and image, the movie makes no sense. JediTalentAgent posted:I still partially wish that given so many Kryptonians did survive that Jor-El should have lived long enough to be strung up as 'co-conspirator', too. Regardless of anything else, he DID pretty much cost their society the Codex. The thing about this sort of observation is that it puts the cart before the horse. The role of the codex in the film is that it's literally the word of God and, effectively, is God. With that understood, questions like 'why don't they make a copy?' are already answered.
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Feb 11, 2014 15:23
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I'm not even arguing for there to be back-up Codexes. If the theme of the film that the Codex IS a singular and supremely valuable object of such holy, practical and symbolic relevance that only one may exist, fine. But Jor-El's legacy for the very short remainder of Krypton's existence has to be stained with the knowledge that sacred relic is now forever gone because of him. Also, this film seems like the first time in the Superman Mythos where the destruction of Krypton occurs some relatively long unspecified amount of time after the launch of baby Kal. In so many others, it's pretty much a last-ditch attempt to save him as their world is crumbling around him. No one else had time to react to save anyone or themselves. However, in this film there's enough time that passes between the revelation the planet is doomed, Jor-El launching him, Zod standing trial and getting sentenced for and Lara be at home and get comfortable for the end of the world. It's seems like it's a pretty big chunk of missing time between the loss of Codex/Kal and the destruction of their world that could be a few hours to a few months. Other than a mention of getting to some shelters, there's not really a good idea of how Krypton is reacting to their final days and the loss of the Codex. Edit: I'm sort of tempted to go and find the novelization of the movie to see if it says anything about the elements of the movie people are still debating. Not that I believe the novelization is necessarily going to be canon or anything with the events of the film*, but it at least we'd be able to say it professionally published and licenced-fic instead of fanfic. (*Admittedly, I've known of quite a few adaptation that divert significantly from the final film) JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 15:48
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Russell Crowe saved the codex from being blown up with the planet though, right? The stain on his legacy is not letting it be destroyed with Krypton, and leading their doom to another innocent planet.
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Feb 11, 2014 16:38
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Why is there a long argument about relatively meaningless technicalities going on here. I thought the weak points of the movie were it's weak characterisation and thematic inconsistencies - and those are things that actually matter to a movie.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:16
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ChaosSamusX posted:Why is there a long argument about relatively meaningless technicalities going on here. I thought the weak points of the movie were it's weak characterisation and thematic inconsistencies - and those are things that actually matter to a movie. Because someone is a sperg with the worst memory in the world. But by all means, feel free to say in detail your problems about the film.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:19
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computer parts posted:Because someone is a sperg with the worst memory in the world. I really felt the movie dropped the ball with the character of General Zod. He shows up at the beginning of the movie as someone who can relate to the protagonists of the film and holds somewhat similar goals, but doesn't share their ethics. I thought this set the stage for a pretty decent narrative - the antagonist (who is willing to make any ethical sacrifice to ensure the success of their people) is a foil to the protagonist (Superman as well as Jor-El) who is primarily defined by their principles. I really liked the scene where Superman asks Zod if he killed his father, and Zod bluntly states that he did, but also immensely regretted it ("I did. And not a day goes by that it does not haunt me"). That's the villain the movie promises - instead, what we're given is an irrational mass-murdering monster who wants to push aside humanity instead of just taking the time to adapt to Earth's atmosphere or finding a new location (both of which were probably more likely to succeed than his actual plan). Essentially, the first part of the movie shows us a villain capable of subtlety who then proceeds to literally try and kill all humans in the third act. Thematically, I found it odd how the value of human (sentient?) life is sporadically brought up as an important element throughout the movie, but almost always arbitrarily dropped. For instance, Jor-El tells Zod he has no right to simply kill people off the way he is, and then murders two of Zod's henchmen less than a minute later. Superman wrestles with killing Zod at the end of the film, even though the latter has already attempted genocide on humanity, and Superman has already tackled Zod through multiple buildings at immense speed (presumably killing a number of innocents in the process). Also, the idea that Superman is supposed to inspire humanity to greatness as well as simply being great. I thought that was a nice touch (and a concept that modern superhero movies really should embrace) but, once again, nothing really happens from it. There's a short scene where the Daily Planet people save one person, and Toby from the West Wing helps defeat some of Zod's forces, but we don't see Superman inspiring people to be great. Basically, the movie really disappointed me because it had a lot of elements that could have made for an incredible film, and those elements are then inexplicably dropped in favour of random flashbacks and punching.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:41
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ChaosSamusX posted:I really liked the scene where Superman asks Zod if he killed his father, and Zod bluntly states that he did, but also immensely regretted it ("I did. And not a day goes by that it does not haunt me"). That's the villain the movie promises - instead, what we're given is an irrational mass-murdering monster who wants to push aside humanity instead of just taking the time to adapt to Earth's atmosphere or finding a new location (both of which were probably more likely to succeed than his actual plan). I do think, however, that they should have tossed in a line explaining why Zod would rather terraform Earth than find another planet. Baron Bifford fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Feb 11, 2014 |
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Feb 11, 2014 18:50
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ChaosSamusX posted:Why is there a long argument about relatively meaningless technicalities going on here. I thought the weak points of the movie were it's weak characterisation and thematic inconsistencies - and those are things that actually matter to a movie. If you don't read the meaningless technicalities, strong characterisation can look weak, and thematic consistency can fall apart.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:58
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Baron Bifford posted:This hardly abnormal, at least for humans. Zod cares deeply for fellow Kryptonians but doesn't give a poo poo about humans. Humans do this to; not as much these days as they did in, say, the 19th century, thankfully. The movie didn't need a line for this-- it was made pretty clear that murdering humanity is a way for him to get back at Jor-El (and at Clark) in the most extreme way possible. Zod doesn't just dislike Jor-El, he *hates* him, and he extends that hatred to Jor-El's son, who, in his words, has "adopted" these humans.
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Feb 11, 2014 18:59
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Baron Bifford posted:This hardly abnormal, at least for humans. Zod cares deeply for fellow Kryptonians but doesn't give a poo poo about humans. Humans do this to; not as much these days as they did in, say, the 19th century, thankfully. Kryptonian society only works if they're alone in the universe.
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Feb 11, 2014 19:00
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ChaosSamusX posted:I really felt the movie dropped the ball with the character of General Zod. He shows up at the beginning of the movie as someone who can relate to the protagonists of the film and holds somewhat similar goals, but doesn't share their ethics. I thought this set the stage for a pretty decent narrative - the antagonist (who is willing to make any ethical sacrifice to ensure the success of their people) is a foil to the protagonist (Superman as well as Jor-El) who is primarily defined by their principles. 1. Zod's "not a day goes by" quote isn't one of regret, because I'm sure given the chance he'd kill Jor-El again. He says that to attempt to get Kal-El on his side before having to just gently caress his poo poo up the old fashioned way. 2. Superman never really does the tackling through buildings, Zod is the aggressor throughout that entire battle.
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Feb 11, 2014 21:20
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I think Zod honestly does regret killing Jor-El, but it's, you know, exactly what everyone else committing horrible crimes tells themselves. I never wanted to do this! I'm a good person! drat you for forcing my hand! I'm so going to brood about this later, as your corpse rots!
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Feb 11, 2014 21:26
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Baron Bifford posted:This hardly abnormal, at least for humans. Zod cares deeply for fellow Kryptonians but doesn't give a poo poo about humans. Humans do this to; not as much these days as they did in, say, the 19th century, thankfully. Earth, as it exists in the film, is an anathema to Kryptonian belief. Zod, by genetic design, is an extremist ideologue. Humans have to be exterminated because their way of life is wrong.
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Feb 11, 2014 22:58
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Zod's whole character is an exploration of genetically-instilled purposes. He starts out genuinely believing he's trying to protect Krypton and save it, and eventually in the climax when he goes off the deep end he finally admits that he's doing what he's doing because he personally wants to. That's the most direct version of, what is it, Kantian ethics - the fact I don't know what it's properly called is proof I'm an idiot - but it's the best open representation of if I've seen in a film. I wish there had been more of that kind of thing - I'm a big fan of the recent animated superman/batman movies because they're good at getting to the heart of their character's themes and being interesting with them. Usually because they very closely adapt the comics they're based on, but there we go.
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Feb 12, 2014 07:41
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The Born Approx. posted:Earth, as it exists in the film, is an anathema to Kryptonian belief. Zod, by genetic design, is an extremist ideologue. Humans have to be exterminated because their way of life is wrong. Wait.. what?.. wait again.. Where the hell did you get this?
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Feb 12, 2014 18:41
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Myrddin_Emrys posted:Wait.. what?.. wait again.. While it's not a literal motivation for the character, it's pretty thematically accurate. Earth/The United States is represented as a melting pot, the civilian and military humans alike are a mix of genders and ethnicities, completely independent of their professions. They are people who chose their own way, while the Kryptonians had their ways chosen for them. Zod's purpose is to enact and protect the Kryptonian way, which he believes is best.
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Feb 12, 2014 23:23
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The trend established by Transformers 3 and this movie has me thinking that we will never escape the legacy of 9/11. It's as if all history has stopped and we go to the movie theaters to relive 9/11 in our summer blockbusters. Watching this movie nearly gave me panic attack flashbacks. Ragdoll bodies flying through the air as people are chased by grey dust through the streets of "Metropolis". What I hate more than anything is not the use of 9/11 imagery to evoke terror in the audience but the fact that the consequences of all this violence are never once shown. We never see bodies of humans unless they are in motion flying through the air. We do not see blood, we do not see moments of death. We don't see torn limbs or anything real. We are just on an amusement park ride of clean shrink wrapped terror with new car scent. It's almost like after Zach Snyder was done mashing his toys together he just happened to notice that there wasn't anyone to really give a poo poo about in this CGI wasteland so he inserted Laurence Fishburn and 2 people nobody gives a gently caress about in the streets to give it at least some human element. The callous disregard Superman has for the incubation facility seemed very unsuperman-like. I know that the pods weren't fertilized. The 13 year olds watching this poo poo, what in the hell do they even think when they see this? They have never known a time of not-war. They don't know a pre-9/11 world. This imagery is in recorded footage and textbooks for them. Anyways I enjoyed the first half of this movie so much, the second half was awful. The only good thing I can say about it is that whoever the casting director was has some sort of mad brilliance. Russel Crowe almost looked as if he wasn't drunk during his scenes. Having actors who play known archetypes on TV take up those roles on the silver screen was actually really convincing. The dude who played superman wasn't complete poo poo and had some measure of screen presence which is more than I can say for the last attempt to exhume Superman. The Walking Dad fucked around with this message at 08:22 on Feb 18, 2014 |
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Feb 18, 2014 08:05
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Just post-9/11 a lot of films and filmmakers were heavily criticized even for films that were created and filmed before the attacks for evoking 9/11 imagery. I remember when Swordfish came out on video there was a big sticker on it about how it contained scenes of a destructive nature that might be disturbing to audiences post-9/11. Even a year later Roger Ebert and Roeper gave a horrifically scathing review to the Powerpuff Girls movie largely on the basis that it made 9/11-types of destruction into entertainment. I think even Spider-Man 1 had some comments made regarding explosive destruction of a tall building by a flying terrorist, but the very pro-America/pro-NYC attitude by the end of the film I think largely detracted from some of those complaints. I don't know the first film that was 'allowed' post-9/11 to be an unabashedly violent and city-destructive film, though, where it didn't cause people to uncomfortably compare it to the events. It could have been the first Bay Transformers.
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Feb 18, 2014 08:17
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Rubbish. I've seen plenty of older movies that show cities being wrecked. Independence Day, Godzilla, Die Hard, etc. 9/11 was a movie plot that actually happened to New York.
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Feb 18, 2014 08:19
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