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oshuaj posted:Costuming can't possibly communicate something to the viewer!!! It's just clothes!!! You're poo poo at storytelling if you think that, barring anything else, simply putting an old woman on the screen in a costume tells the viewer she belongs to a corrupt and decadent culture. Especially in the sci-fi genre in which every alien civilization follows the visual format of "it's alien because it's funny-looking".
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Apr 25, 2014 19:53
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Maxwell Lord posted:The one thing I don't buy in terms of Zod's character is when he suddenly goes "This only ends when one of us dies!" I think at that point Zod and the other Kryptonians fully understood that Superman had opposed their attacks, blown up their birthing chamber, etc. because he'd chosen Earth over Krytpon and was stopping the Kryptonians for humanity's sake. Toady posted:I enjoyed it as a visceral popcorn movie that realistically depicted the consequences of super-powered fighting. This began as a discussion of the mishandling of the story elements. Fans started making poo poo up about what was in the movie--that Krypton was a corrupt society of decadence, technologically incapable of leaving the planet. When asked to point out where the film depicts that, the only thing actually in the film that has been singled out is one scene in which old people are wearing what is apparently Krypton's version of a suit and tie. Yo, this is a lie. You're ignoring the single biggest piece of evidence that the Kryptonians were incapable of organizing a mass exodus: the Kryptonians did not organize a mass exodus: You are, amazingly, failing at two separate and mutually exclusive means of reading the movie: 1) Understanding that the movie is a fictional story being told to you through the efforts of one or more people, you take choices in the movie's dialogue, aesthetic, etc. to be deliberate attempts to tacitly communicate to you, the viewer, various facts about the plot 2) Pretending that the movie is a 100% nonfictional documentary of things that actually happened in a parallel universe, you accept as given that everything depicted onscreen really and truly happened and, if you find yourself puzzled, try to piece things together such that they make sense Performing either of these activities would lead you to the insanely obvious conclusion that, due to societal faults, the Kryptonians were unable to escape their exploding planet en masse. But you've done neither. Why? I don't know. Also, you never answered me from a few pages back. Can you prove to me that Superman was not, in fact, an Atlantean sorcerer who could at any time have used his spellcasting powers to stop Zod? Can you? Go on. 'cause Zack Goyer sure looks pretty dumb for ignoring Superman's magic in all those fight scenes... Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Apr 25, 2014 |
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Apr 25, 2014 20:00
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Toady posted:Especially in the sci-fi genre in which every alien civilization follows the visual format of "it's alien because it's funny-looking". Uh, not really, dude. Do you know what costuming even is?
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Apr 25, 2014 20:12
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Toady posted:You're poo poo at storytelling if you think that, barring anything else, simply putting an old woman on the screen in a costume tells the viewer she belongs to a corrupt and decadent culture. Especially in the sci-fi genre in which every alien civilization follows the visual format of "it's alien because it's funny-looking". As someone who works in the film industry and has friends in costuming departments, screw you and your complete misunderstanding of mise en scene and how crucial costumes are to it. Its not the only thing they do to portray this idea of decadence and corruption on Krypton, but its a pretty drat important one as far as how visual story telling works. Did you need Russel Crowe to specifically comment on the outfits and what they mean or would you have dismissed that as bad exposition? Narration? Flashbacks? What way would you have communicated this information?
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Apr 25, 2014 20:15
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Toady posted:You're poo poo at storytelling if you think that, barring anything else, simply putting an old woman on the screen in a costume tells the viewer she belongs to a corrupt and decadent culture. Especially in the sci-fi genre in which every alien civilization follows the visual format of "it's alien because it's funny-looking".  Look how hard it would be for this guy to move in that thing. If he so much as leans back in his throne it's going to get bent or twisted out of position. He's literally sacrificed his mobility for ostentation. The visual is of an elderly man in a golden cage. It is a blatant visual metaphor for people too trapped within their refinement to leave their planet, despite the decay within.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:25
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Actually, that's just lovely storytelling.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:26
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Ferrinus posted:Yo, this is a lie. You're ignoring the single biggest piece of evidence that the Kryptonians were incapable of organizing a mass exodus: the Kryptonians did not organize a mass exodus: This is a terrible justification for bad writing. It would only be evidence if it was actually depicted in the film that Krypton was incapable of evacuation. However, we know for a fact they are capable of space travel, so that's a done argument. We also know they have the technology to build escape pods, and they even have access to an alternate dimension and the ability to teleport across the galaxy through it. Additionally, if we're to believe that they were incapable of evacuation, why the gently caress are they going through the trouble of holding a trial and evacuating the villain and his crew from the planet? quote:You are, amazingly, failing at two separate and mutually exclusive means of reading the movie: Because the movie directly contradicts that "insanely obvious" conclusion. 1.) "Krypton was corrupt and decadent!" The only thing concretely cited, a scene in which planetary leaders are wearing sci-fi costumes, doesn't imply anything either way. The abandonment of their space colonies is left totally unexplained. We're never told why they were forced to harvest the core. We are led to believe that Krypton is a once-great society that fell from glory, right down to the sunset lighting, but the circumstances are never explained, and nothing in the film supports the assertion that Krypton was corrupt and decadent. It's just a narrative cliche that people are applying to the film to cover up its lack of storytelling. 2.) "Krypton couldn't evacuate!" It's clearly established that they have the technology to leave the planet, so the question remaining is their nonsensical behavior following the coup. Why are they holding a trial for Zod? Nobody has answered this. The movie could have depicted this as part of the problem with the caste system--what if the politicians were compelled to go through the motions of procedure as part of their genetic design? The film doesn't bother to do that, and it even has Superman's mom taking part in it--a sympathetic character that rejected the caste system with Jor-El--so why is she bothering with this pointlessness when she knows the planet is about to explode? quote:Also, you never answered me from a few pages back. Can you prove to me that Superman was not, in fact, an Atlantean sorcerer who could at any time have used his spellcasting powers to stop Zod? Of course not.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:30
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If you can't see detail beyond "sci-fi costumes" you need to stop pretending you have any business critiquing a visual medium.HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Actually, that's just lovely storytelling. It's interesting to see this put on both Snyder and Goyer since it's so un-Goyer-esque. If this were a Nolan Batman movie Zod would have yelled something like, "You pack of fools could never leave this planet! With your heavy robes and jewelry you can barely leave your thrones," to make sure we really got the metaphor.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:33
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AccountSupervisor posted:As someone who works in the film industry and has friends in costuming departments, screw you and your complete misunderstanding of mise en scene and how crucial costumes are to it. Give me a break. You know I never said costuming wasn't crucial to a movie. I said, barring anything else, simply sticking an old person in a funny costume doesn't mean "corrupt and decadent society."
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Apr 25, 2014 20:34
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Toady, how much yard work do you think this character does?
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Apr 25, 2014 20:36
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Toady posted:The abandonment of their space colonies is left totally unexplained. We're never told why they were forced to harvest the core. We are led to believe that Krypton is a once-great society that fell from glory, right down to the sunset lighting, but the circumstances are never explained, and nothing in the film supports the assertion that Krypton was corrupt and decadent. It's just a narrative cliche that people are applying to the film to cover up its lack of storytelling. Hrmm a society which has abandoned its space program and is using up all of its fossil fuels. Could this be referring to something else maybe? Like another civilization which is doing the exact same thing?? Probably not, it's just a bunch of people in silly costumes lol
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Apr 25, 2014 20:40
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Sir Kodiak posted:It's interesting to see this put on both Snyder and Goyer since it's so un-Goyer-esque. If this were a Nolan Batman movie Zod would have yelled something like, "You pack of fools could never leave this planet! With your heavy robes and jewelry you can barely leave your thrones," to make sure we really got the metaphor. Either you die the space pope or you live long enough to see yourself turn into a lich. Toady posted:Give me a break. You know I never said costuming wasn't crucial to a movie. I said, barring anything else, simply sticking an old person in a funny costume doesn't mean "corrupt and decadent society." Barring anything else...like the movie you're watching? What the hell are you talking about?
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Apr 25, 2014 20:46
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Sir Kodiak posted:
This visual metaphor has no teeth because there is nothing in the film to suggest that Krypton arrived at its current situation as the result of corruption and decadence. If the fundamental basis for the premise asserted here--that Kryptonian society is corrupt and incapable of escaping the explosion--is this one shot of a king in his ceremonial garb, then fans are looking for anything that aligns with conclusions drawn from outside the source material. The film itself does not communicate these ideas and in most cases contradicts them.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:48
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AccountSupervisor posted:As someone who works in the film industry and has friends in costuming departments, screw you and your complete misunderstanding of mise en scene and how crucial costumes are to it. Sucks that people like your friends waste so much time on stuff that doesn't matter. Might as well have dressed this lady:  like this:  since they're both just sci-fi costumes. No difference in the information being communicated, and the latter looks a hell of a lot easier to make. Toady posted:This visual metaphor has no teeth because there is nothing in the film to suggest that Krypton arrived at its current situation as the result of corruption and decadence. The image I posted is in the film. It conveys the leaders of the planet being decadent. The leaders of the planet are explicitly blamed, via dialogue from both Jor El and Zod, for the current situation of the planet. This dialogue occurs while these characters are on-screen, making it implicit that these things are connected.
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Apr 25, 2014 20:58
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Toady posted:there is nothing in the film to suggest that Krypton arrived at its current situation as the result of corruption and decadence. Under the watchful eye of the old man in the golden cage, the entire planet explodes. Both Zod and Jor-El blame the council for causing this and letting it happen. Nothing in the film? Did you see an alternate cut with no dialogue or exposition? Or images?
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Apr 25, 2014 20:58
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Guy A. Person posted:Hrmm a society which has abandoned its space program and is using up all of its fossil fuels. Could this be referring to something else maybe? Like another civilization which is doing the exact same thing?? This has descended to Matrix sequel territory, where flawed films get justified because people on forums can draw metaphors. Did you know Mobil is an anagram for Limbo?? HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Barring anything else...like the movie you're watching? What the hell are you talking about? Wow. Barring anything else in the movie.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:04
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Toady posted:Wow. Barring anything else in the movie. What's the rationale for barring anything else in the movie?
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Apr 25, 2014 21:09
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Sir Kodiak posted:Sucks that people like your friends waste so much time on stuff that doesn't matter. Might as well have dressed this lady: I think the trouble is that a lot of viewers are unwilling to 'trust' that all these creative decisions and hours of work 'mean' anything. People are so used to sci-fi sets and costumes that it must appear to just come from nowhere and mean nothing, all just connoting 'space'.
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Apr 25, 2014 21:17
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Toady posted:This is a terrible justification for bad writing. It would only be evidence if it was actually depicted in the film that Krypton was incapable of evacuation. However, we know for a fact they are capable of space travel, so that's a done argument. We also know they have the technology to build escape pods, and they even have access to an alternate dimension and the ability to teleport across the galaxy through it. Additionally, if we're to believe that they were incapable of evacuation, why the gently caress are they going through the trouble of holding a trial and evacuating the villain and his crew from the planet? I'm not seeing your refutation of "the Kryptonians could not escape their planet en masse, since if thy could have they would have". Like, all your followup questions about why the Kryptonians upheld their old rituals, held a trial, etc, in the face of annihilation are themselves really easy to answer, and plenty of other people are doing a good if thankless job explaining to you how you can tell that Keyptonian society was a corrupt fossil of itself, so I just want to focus on this single most obvious point: the Kryptonians couldn't escape their planet in time. If they could have, they would have, but they didn't, so they couldn't. You can't adopt the pretense of someone who is analyzing the movie's plot if you totally miss or ignore this single most basic element of the plot. quote:Of course not. Then why don't you believe it?
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Apr 25, 2014 21:30
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Sir Kodiak posted:Sucks that people like your friends waste so much time on stuff that doesn't matter. Might as well have dressed this lady: This is a dumb forum tactic. I never said costumes don't matter or that different costumes don't convey different things, but you're going to sarcastically post about costumes now instead of addressing the issues I raised, and it lets you post pictures of things, which must mean you zinged me. quote:The image I posted is in the film. It conveys the leaders of the planet being decadent. The leaders of the planet are explicitly blamed, via dialogue from both Jor El and Zod, for the current situation of the planet. This dialogue occurs while these characters are on-screen, making it implicit that these things are connected. Because of this man's costume, the harvesting of the planet's core was the result of decadence and greed? Then why did they grimly ask what they were supposed to do, as if it was a desperate situation, which implies that they had no choice but to harvest the core? This scene doesn't convey the backstory of Krypton's corruption and decadence that you claim it does. It actually presents a sympathetic viewpoint--Krypton was forced to harvest this energy for unexplained reasons at great risk to itself, and its fall is an unavoidable fate. The movie literally tells us more than once that Krypton came to end because it was time for it to end. Krypton's cultural ethics are intentionally unclear to avoid having Krypton be perceived as a metaphor for us, because that would be too political, particularly for a movie marketed to Christian conservatives. The only moral judgement Jor-El ever makes about Krypton is his opposition to the caste system. He never complains about corrupt politicians or decadent use of energy. This would be a very important element in the fall of Krypton, something he would certainly have mentioned in his retelling of Krypton's history to Superman. Zod's accusation that the council argued a lot doesn't suggest anything either way, and it rings hollow coming from a murderous dictator who kills the first person that opens their mouth. I really have watched this movie we're talking about, and it does not communicate the things people are claiming it does. In most cases it directly contradicts them. "But, Toady, this man is wearing a kingly costume!" There's no link made in the film, no matter how strongly you want there to be to fit your conclusion, between Krypton's explosion and any culture of corruption that led them there. The film doesn't explain: 1.) Why Krypton was forced to harvest its core or the circumstances that led them there. 2.) Why they held a trial for Zod even though the planet was about to blow up. 3.) Why nobody else left the planet. These are crucial points that the movie fails to explain in any way. These points are important because Man of Steel changed the traditional premise of Jor-El being doubted by the council, so we need to know why this advanced civilization was forced to harvest the planet's core and why it had no response to the risk of planetary explosion. People keep avoiding these issues and call me a "sperg" and "feel sorry" for me and other forum things that people do. If all you're going to reply with is the way the people were dressed in the council scene, then for gently caress's sake, I rest my case. If you're going to claim that the film is an ambiguous shell in which filmgoers can draw whatever interpretations they want, then, yes, it's an empty shell.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:41
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Toady posted:This is a dumb forum tactic. I never said costumes don't matter or that different costumes don't convey different things, but you're going to sarcastically post about costumes now instead of addressing the issues I raised, and it lets you post pictures of things, which must mean you zinged me. Okay, then, what do the costumes from Man of Steel I posted pictures of convey? Because so far, whenever someone has posted an interpretation of them, you've boiled them down to "sci-fi costumes", "a funny costume", "old people in funny hats", etc.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:48
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:What's the rationale for barring anything else in the movie? It's hard for me to believe you're not being intentionally obtuse, but "barring anything else that exists in the story" means that if there's nothing else in the story to support the assertion of this implied backstory, then it's a huge stretch to cite the costumes of the Kryptonian council as proof that Krypton was corrupt and decadent. "Anything else" could be something as explicit as a bribery scene to something as subtle as a shifty glance between politicians. I haven't yet seen anyone cite anything else. This corruption/decadence thing is being put out to try to explain away Krypton's implausible behavior. Ferrinus posted:I'm not seeing your refutation of "the Kryptonians could not escape their planet en masse, since if thy could have they would have". How do you know they couldn't escape their planet in time? The film contradicts that--they had enough time to hold a trial and waste their spaceships on evacuating Zod and friends safely off the planet. You really don't think that's a glaring plot hole? quote:Then why don't you believe it? Because there's nothing presented in the film to suggest that it's the case.
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Apr 25, 2014 22:59
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Toady posted:Because of this man's costume, the harvesting of the planet's core was the result of decadence and greed? Then why did they grimly ask what they were supposed to do, as if it was a desperate situation, which implies that they had no choice but to harvest the core? The next line of the movie is Jor El telling the council that they had a choice. Lor-Em: Our energy reserves were exhausted. What would you have us do, El? Jor-El: Look to the stars, like our ancestors did, for habitable world's within reach. We can begin by using the old outposts. Then, when the subject comes up during virtual Jor El's history lesson on the old colony ship, he says that as a result of a calcified culture ("Artificial population control was established", "Your mother and I believed Krypton lost something precious, the element of choice, of chance."), they stopped developing and reaching out to new resources ("The outposts and space exploration were abandoned."), which put them in the position of exhausting their existing ones ("We exhausted our natural resources.").
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Apr 25, 2014 23:03
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Toady posted:It's hard for me to believe you're not being intentionally obtuse, but "barring anything else that exists in the story" means that if there's nothing else in the story to support the assertion of this implied backstory, then it's a huge stretch to cite the costumes of the Kryptonian council as proof that Krypton was corrupt and decadent. "Anything else" could be something as explicit as a bribery scene to something as subtle as a shifty glance between politicians. I haven't yet seen anyone cite anything else. This corruption/decadence thing is being put out to try to explain away Krypton's implausible behavior. Why do you need more exposition when you have fabulous costumes? Do you really want the runtime of MOS padded with court intrigue?
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Apr 25, 2014 23:05
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Toady posted:
What kind of answer would you expect? Why are we, humankind, shortsightedly burning through our natural recourses?
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Apr 25, 2014 23:15
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Sir Kodiak posted:Okay, then, what do the costumes from Man of Steel I posted pictures of convey? Because so far, whenever someone has posted an interpretation of them, you've boiled them down to "sci-fi costumes", "a funny costume", "old people in funny hats", etc. That's a fair point. Those costumes convey to me a sense of nobility and sovereignty, like a crown and scepter. These are clearly the leaders of Krypton. I think that if their costumes were intended to tell a story of unwarranted decadence, then they would be far more colorful, perhaps adorned with large gems (harvested from the planet's core?) to drive the point. I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss one's perception of them as extravagant. And, no offense, but I've seen this style of costuming before, so that's were my description of them as "sci-fi costumes" is coming from. My argument here is that the costuming of the Kryptonian council alone isn't a "clearly obvious" (to use someone else's description) implication that Kryptonian society is corrupt and greedy. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it from the imagery alone. In fact, the dialogue from the council implies that Krypton was forced into harvesting the core for survival reasons, though the reasons are never stated. That lack of explanation is my problem with the Krypton section of the film. I want to care about the fall of Superman's people, but they behave in implausible ways. Not irrational ways that could be attributed to their caste system or to greed, but just plain nonsensical ways that makes the fall of Krypton seem silly. I was waiting for someone to post Queen Amidala, and while that's definitely extravagant, I don't look at it and assume corruption, nor would I assume Queen Amidala and the rest of Naboo society were corrupt. I think this focus on costuming is a puzzling tangent, because it's not a convincing argument about the moral state of Krypton.
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Apr 25, 2014 23:44
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Hbomberguy posted:I think the trouble is that a lot of viewers are unwilling to 'trust' that all these creative decisions and hours of work 'mean' anything. People are so used to sci-fi sets and costumes that it must appear to just come from nowhere and mean nothing, all just connoting 'space'. It's that, but there's also the point missed that such costumes have always been meaningful, even in 'bad' movies like Plan 9 or whatever. The frequent accusation that people are 'reading too far into things' is based on this presumption that only certain films contain enough content to be read. Hence: 'it's just a blockbuster,' 'it's just a horror movie,' and so-on. It's the scene in Zoolander where they look files in the computer by smashing it open. For Toady, the meaning of the costume is (supposed to be) inside the costume. Same with the dialogue: sure, the characters clearly explain the situation, but what is the meaning contained inside their words? Since there are no golden eggs inside the goose, Today discovers only his confusion, which he blames on 'Snyder' and 'Goyer'. They took the eggs away. massive spider posted:What kind of answer would you expect? Why are we, humankind, shortsightedly burning through our natural recourses? It is the same tactical realism argument that was leveled at Elysium: why would the rich deliberately impair the quality of life for the global poor? That's not what I would do if I were a megarich spaceman. Far from being 'realistic', this is an obvious ideological fantasy.
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Apr 25, 2014 23:54
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Toady posted:How do you know they couldn't escape their planet in time? The film contradicts that--they had enough time to hold a trial and waste their spaceships on evacuating Zod and friends safely off the planet. You really don't think that's a glaring plot hole? How do you know that Superman couldn't cast spells? Well, he never did. How do you know that the Kryptonians, clearly opposed to the prospect of dying, couldn't escape their planet in time? They didn't do it. You're bald-facedly wrong here, and to be clear I am attempting to analyze the movie from the perspective of someone playing a video game or solving a puzzle rather than someone that acknowledges they're observing a work of artifice. They had enough time to hold a trial... but, evidently, they did not have enough time to evacuate their entire species from the face of their doomed planet, because they didn't do that. You can't get around this. The movie flatly and directly contradicts your fan fiction.
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Apr 26, 2014 00:04
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Sir Kodiak posted:The next line of the movie is Jor El telling the council that they had a choice. Jor-El was referring to Kal-El and the codex, presumably to seed other worlds. That's why he said everyone on Krypton is dead and that "I've held that hope in my hands" in reference to Kal-El. Jor-El makes moral judgements about the caste system, but the reason the space outposts were abandoned or why they were forced to harvest the core is never given. Was Krypton using more and more energy for their genetic engineering? Were they wasting their energy on civil wars between bloodlines? Was it tragic luck that the energy sources in their galaxy ran out? There's not enough information to draw a conclusion. massive spider posted:What kind of answer would you expect? Why are we, humankind, shortsightedly burning through our natural recourses? An answer to why they apparently had energy sources in space and stopped using them or why they apparently had no plan in case the planet blew up. An answer to anything about the circumstances of Krypton's situation, really, so that I could care about that part of the story.
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Apr 26, 2014 00:09
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I think it's probably more an issue with Krypton's greatest failure as a culture is falling into a sense of unchanging order and stagnation. A sense of, "This is how things are done, it's worked for thousands of years, it will continue to work since it has always worked." The society wasn't able to handle change or adapt or fathom doing either. Even the suggestion of leaving Krypton is viewed as approaching rebellion. The trial, the refusing to do anything like leave, it's maybe just that they're all following a script and going through the motions that they're so hopelessly devoted to. I guess we could argue even something like the military caste: Why does it still exist? There's no mention of being a defense against aliens, but maybe we could assume the Military Caste isn't there to protect Krypton from outside threats, but to quell internal dissent; to strike down forces that might challenge the established order*. Zod's rebellion and irrational behavior is in his eyes justified, maybe: The leaders are enforcing policies that were intended to keep Krypton unchanged and perfect, but will also eventually lead to its complete destruction. He's been driven mad by having two conflicting orders in his programming: Protecting Krypton and its culture requires them to abandon Krypton and its culture. *Edit, or the military caste might still exist as a fully populated ceremonial/defense caste even without current enemies to fight. I rewatched the council scene and Jor-El seems to imply that up until the coup Zod had never taken up arms against fellow Kryptonians. JediTalentAgent fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 00:22
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Toady posted:Was Krypton using more and more energy for their genetic engineering? Were they wasting their energy on civil wars between bloodlines? Was it tragic luck that the energy sources in their galaxy ran out? There's not enough information to draw a conclusion. The answer is "all of those things". Why do you need a conclusive answer? They were using their energy wastefully on stuff and decided to harvest the core. quote:An answer to why they apparently had energy sources in space and stopped using them or why they apparently had no plan in case the planet blew up. An answer to anything about the circumstances of Krypton's situation, really, so that I could care about that part of the story. Again, why are humans so intent on burning fossil fuels rather than renewables? Why don't we have any apparent plan for when this forseeably backfires on us?
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Apr 26, 2014 00:38
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Ferrinus posted:How do you know that Superman couldn't cast spells? That doesn't prove he couldn't cast spells. You just can't make the claim that he could. quote:How do you know that the Kryptonians, clearly opposed to the prospect of dying, couldn't escape their planet in time? They didn't do it. Don't use the word "evidently", because there's no evidence, and in fact, we know there was time to leave the planet since Zod and his crew did. SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's that, but there's also the point missed that such costumes have always been meaningful, even in 'bad' movies like Plan 9 or whatever. To my knowledge, nobody claimed the costumes lacked meaning, but because the movie is a series of compound trivializations that has neither an explicit explanation of the circumstances or even a subtle hint of them--and without one, the events depicted are nonsensical--fans must weigh a backstory of corruption and greed on a headdress. While Goyer's juggling of details often gets him into trouble, Snyder wants to be a deep man (or deep, man) producing subversive pop, and the more underdeveloped or manipulative his art, the greater its depth. It's like a cinematic Poe's law. His bag of tricks runs short, but I still like the movie.
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Apr 26, 2014 01:37
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Toady posted:That doesn't prove he couldn't cast spells. You just can't make the claim that he could. Similarly, you can't make the claim that the Kryptonians could evacuate Krytpon en masse, because it didn't ever happen. quote:Don't use the word "evidently", because there's no evidence, and in fact, we know there was time to leave the planet since Zod and his crew did. Uh, yes, there is. Are you not reading? They didn't evacuate. That's the evidence that they couldn't - the fact that they didn't. It didn't happen, despite obviously being a thing the characters wanted to happen, which means there was some extenuating circumstance preventing it from happening. Now, if you personally aren't perceptive or imaginative enough to figure out why it couldn't happen, that's your own problem and I couldn't care less. It's just important that you stop bald-facedly making things up: it's not true that the Kryptonians had the option to evacuate as a species.
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Apr 26, 2014 01:45
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Toady, I'm getting a mental image of you flipping through the Book of Genesis mumbling, "Hold on... how can a piece of fruit give you the knowledge of good and evil? This makes no sense!"
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Apr 26, 2014 01:47
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Toady posted:To my knowledge, nobody claimed the costumes lacked meaning, but because the movie is a series of compound trivializations that has neither an explicit explanation of the circumstances or even a subtle hint of them--and without one, the events depicted are nonsensical--fans must weigh a backstory of corruption and greed on a headdress. While Goyer's juggling of details often gets him into trouble, Snyder wants to be a deep man (or deep, man) producing subversive pop, and the more underdeveloped or manipulative his art, the greater its depth. It's like a cinematic Poe's law. Getting mad at 'Goyer' and 'Snyder' (or 'Bay' and 'Lucas') does not count as reading. Proclaiming the film 'confusing' and 'senseless' also betrays that you haven't formed an opinion yet.
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Apr 26, 2014 02:20
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Ferrinus posted:Similarly, you can't make the claim that the Kryptonians could evacuate Krytpon en masse, because it didn't ever happen. You're inserting the phrase "en masse", so I presume nobody is arguing anymore that they lack the capability of space travel, since they have spaceships, warp drives, and a pocket dimension to hide in. However, you still won't explain why they're putting Zod on trial. It's like showing up for jury duty the day before a meteor is set to wipe out all life on Earth. quote:Uh, yes, there is. Are you not reading? They didn't evacuate. That's the evidence that they couldn't - the fact that they didn't. It didn't happen, despite obviously being a thing the characters wanted to happen, which means there was some extenuating circumstance preventing it from happening. No characters advocated for evacuation. You watched Zod and his crew inadvertently get evacuated from the planet, but you're arguing that they were not capable of doing what you watched them do. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Getting mad at 'Goyer' and 'Snyder' (or 'Bay' and 'Lucas') does not count as reading. "get mad" and other non sequiturs. Snails. Toady fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Apr 26, 2014 |
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Apr 26, 2014 02:57
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Toady posted:You're inserting the phrase "en masse", so I presume nobody is arguing anymore that they lack the capability of space travel, since they have spaceships, warp drives, and a pocket dimension to hide in. However, you still won't explain why they're putting Zod on trial. It's like showing up for jury duty the day before a meteor is set to wipe out all life on Earth. I didn't say the Kryptonians couldn't send a small group of people to the Phantom Zone. I said they couldn't evacuate the planet as a species. While they did the first thing, they didn't do the second thing. That's how I was able to figure out that the first thing was within their means but the second was not - because only the first thing happened on screen. Do you understand? Should I use shorter words, maybe put these sentences on separate lines? Others have already explained to you why the Kryptonians bothered to hold a trial in the last days of their existence, why they had funny hats, etc. If you're literally unable to understand these things - something that not a single other person in this thread has had difficulty with, whether they loved or hated the movie - then, like I said, that's your own problem. I just wish you'd stop lying in an attempt to look smart.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:06
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Reminder that the entire film centers around how Krypton is the future, and concerns the heroes working to prevent Earth from literally becoming Krypton. Toady failed to understand the entire PG-13 blockbuster film for children.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:12
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Ferrinus posted:I didn't say the Kryptonians couldn't send a small group of people to the Phantom Zone. I said they couldn't evacuate the planet as a species. While they did the first thing, they didn't do the second thing. That's how I was able to figure out that the first thing was within their means but the second was not - because only the first thing happened on screen. Do you understand? Should I use shorter words, maybe put these sentences on separate lines? Nobody has provided a sufficient explanation for why they were holding a trial on armageddon's eve, but it's nice to know that the thread has moved past denying that the Kryptonians had the capability of space travel to begin with.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:25
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They held a trial on the eve of the apocalypse because they were a society obsessed with regimented, orderly structure that led to a self-made, myopic apocalypse. Their inability to create fundamental change in the pre-existing system, which valued continuous consumption of scarce resources with no thought as to the consequences, resulted in the fatal collapse of their planet. This is an allegorical image that is intended to draw comparisons with our own, real world in order to make us consider this portion of our lived experience, as all art does. Do you know what an allegory is? A metaphor? This is a serious question.
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Apr 26, 2014 03:41
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