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Avadon really doesn't play to his strengths. It lacks the dungeon crawler loot grabbin' aspect of Avernum, which was basically "take a dungeon crawler and make that literally the entire setting." It lacks the choices and consequences and bizarro imaginative world and political fuckery of Geneforge. I wouldn't say it's a bad game, but it's definitely his weakest.
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Jun 16, 2013 01:37
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Fintilgin posted:But I've named them! They're like family now. Someone isn't a true shaper  Regularly absorbing your creations and remaking them is a good strategy in some games, bad in others. As I recall Geneforge 5 is one where you want your creations to live as long as they can. Dunno where Geneforge 1 falls in there as I always went Agent 
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Jul 15, 2013 00:50
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Playing through Avadon now, and I will say that while most of the characterization falls flat, it's impossible to hate Nathalie. No reward? Bullshit! I get to MURDER EVERYTHING WITH MAGIC! That's a reward in of itself!
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Nov 6, 2013 12:55
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From what I recall the big problem with Nethergate is that it wasn't mechanically different enough from Exile (the Celtic/Roman divide ended up hurting it amongst would-be fans) to really stand out, and while I love the setting and backdrops, for most people it was just "Exile but without all the stuff you like about Exile."
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Dec 11, 2013 02:35
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2 is great in of itself, 3 was great if you played either/both of the previous ones. ( 2 is the better one )
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Mar 17, 2014 05:39
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Thuryl posted:Unfortunately, though, Battle Shaping is pretty disappointing in every game except Geneforge 5. It's pretty funny - battle shaping was the worst of the three through most of the series, then Geneforge 5 happens and suddenly battle shaping is amazingly powerful and wipes the floor with everything else. GO, MY SCORPION ARMY!
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Apr 6, 2014 08:32
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I recall literally nothing that Avernum does better then EftP. If you REALLY want to go old school, go back to Exile 1, where you can't even see the item stats without using the character editor.
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May 14, 2014 01:41
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Who rates 5 low? I think 5 and 2 are up there for the best ones, frankly. 1 was great at it's time, and still sorta has that stranger in a strange land feeling, but my god has it aged poorly. 3 is stupidly linear. 4 is good, but just a biiiiiiiiiit still too linear to hit 2/5 levels.
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Jun 6, 2014 15:03
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I'm a bit eager for the Avernum 2 remake, as I felt 2 was the best Exile/Avernum. Playing that shareware version and desperately trying to find whatever food I could while surviving loving basilisks and imps and this one undead rear end in a top hat is still a pretty fond memory. I'm ALSO interested in how the heck he does the waterfall dens of 2 to bring back scrimping and saving and desperately not starving, unless the answer is to just ignore that (which I think was the solution in Avernum; pretend it wasn't there at all). Also if he's bringing back anything, bring back 6 party members 
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Jul 27, 2014 14:27
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Avadon 1 (haven't played 2 yet) suffered from ultimately being a generic fantasy world without anything to stand out. Exile/Avernum had the whole underworld, "Cave Australia Land" thing going on where literally everything was inside a D&D dungeon and everything that exists wants to kill you and is also probably poisonous, and Geneforge was significantly more creative then both the A games put together with it's sci-fi/fantasy theming.
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Jul 28, 2014 13:28
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General OP-ness from my memory: Geneforge 1: Shaper specializing in Fire or Magic (choose one) Geneforge 2: Agent specializing in control Geneforge 3: Don't play Geneforge 3 it's mediocre Geneforge 4: Secret new class that's reverse Agent Geneforge 5: Shaper specializing in Battle
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Sep 16, 2014 21:22
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I liked having 6 party members just for the dumb combinations you could make your team from. Like, yeah, you'll almost always want Magic, Divine, Warrior, Extra with four. In Exile 2 if I remember I had a sneaky cat archer, a crazy glass cannon dual wielding clubs human, a generic armored human who'd switch between sword and board and two hander (when DEMONS needed SLAYING), a human wizard/cleric, a cat wizard and alchemist, and a proud slith warrior-priest. Now it's just Swordcat, Spearlizard, Fireballhuman, and Healhuman. No more "what if I ONLY ever pump Strength and Clubs???" berserker with like two health but stupid damage.
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Jan 20, 2015 04:08
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Years ago he talked about how everyone tries to talk up the glories of indie gaming free from corporate shackles, and how nobody seems to consider that 99% of "indie games" consist of "tetris but with pirate decorations."
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Feb 18, 2015 13:15
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Gorelab posted:So far Avadon 3 feels a good bit better than the first two to me. I think it's because the scenario makes things feel a lot better with regards to choice. The Avadon 2 NPC quests were agonizing. That moron shaman one in particular was just SO DUMB!
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Sep 25, 2016 07:27
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On the note of Escape from the Pit (and Crystal Souls), it's been a drat long time since I played OG Avernum (and even longer since Exile), so I always forget if non-spellcasters were always this pointless, or if it's a new thing, or if it's a thing that existed but has just gotten worse over time.
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Dec 18, 2016 14:56
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Yeah, I haven't actually beaten Avadon 2. It just never clicked for me.
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Mar 25, 2017 06:49
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I think I've bounced off Avadon for the last time. I beat 1 a long time ago and legit remember almost nothing about it. I've tried going into 2 a few times, and finally hit Khalida's questline, and I think I just...don't care enough to keep playing. The Corruption had a few mildly interesting bits, but that's about it, and none of the NPCs are really all that likeable - if they even have a strong enough personality to begin with. I really don't care enough to keep going (and Khalida's quest is super dumb and it's very existence leeches my desire to play more) much less buy a third game.
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Jun 23, 2017 05:00
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Gorelab posted:I feel like the biggest problem the Avadon series had is it kept rehashing the same conflicts. I feel like it'd have been better served by going further afield than it did, and maybe having a game where you didn't just serve directly under Redbeard. Instead we basically just got the same stuff 3 games in a row. DACK FAYDEN posted:Man, there's no big reveal about Redbeard's weird immortality pool things that murder you if you try to drink them? That's kinda sad, that was one of the more interesting plot points. This is what got me to kinda stop playing Avadon 2 and sorta give up on the series. Avadon 1 raises a bunch of questions, and they just sorta...don't get answered, at all, because every game is just the last game all over again, with nothing really new revealed. Basically, the Avadon games are mostly about the setting, not the characters...except the setting isn't actually all that interesting, and a lot of the supposed dangerous and political "you have to do this bad thing!" choices ended up feeling forced (the Avadon 2 NPC quests are TERRIBLE). In the end, I just ended up finding that "vaguely Bioware-ian politics" just aren't interesting in of themselves, and that ends up being all the game offers. Characters like Linda work because the game isn't about them. Even in Geneforge, the game isn't about the characters, and the characters never really steal that much spotlight. Exile/Avernum is pretty solidly about the various adventures your party has, with the characters and setting serving to create the situations for those adventures. And Geneforge actually is about political morality and the choices you make, but with a setting interesting enough to make those questions and choices feel a lot more important and interesting. In those games, the characters are largely a joke or a gimmick or a single character trait - and it works because you interact with them so rarely. But Avadon is trying to be about political morality and choices, but the NPCs keep getting in the way with how dull they are, and I just don't care about the setting enough to care about the choices I make. The NPCs are still largely a gimmick or single character trait, but you interact with them so much that it wears thin fast. Sometimes the gimmick or trait is fun - Nathalie in Avadon 1 is a blast (until like, the very end), and the tinkermage in Avadon 2 works more often then not, but usually, their gimmick is just kinda...tired. And they repeat! Like, can you honestly tell ANY of the Wyldrylm NPCs apart? "I'm a shaman/hunter who is very loyal to their people but gosh I'm also supposed to help Avadon, which does things my people don't always like!"
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Jul 4, 2017 23:18
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I'm just hoping something is done for Avernum 3 so it's not just another case where you want all spellcasters (or close to it).
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Jul 7, 2017 23:05
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Robo Reagan posted:Is there any point to not loading up a party with two priests types and two mage types or some variation of that in Avernum 2? Melee and archery/thrown seem like hot garbage compared to spells at the low levels I'm at Sadly, not really. Magic remains the best way to kill lots of enemies fast, and the vast majority of your fights are largely against lots of enemies - and the way the cloak spells work, you actually get rewarded for homogenous parties. Also, you're missing out on a good game, if that matters.
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Jul 28, 2017 08:01
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Basically, there's no reason to actually use non-magical characters outside of that one sword. Spells do more damage, do it to groups, is more easily unlocked, can do more then just damage, has nova capabilities, and doesn't require large amounts of equipment. There's only so many good weapons - you'll run out of those long before you run out of spells. EDIT: Note that Avernum 2 is actually worse about the disparity. At least in Avernum 1 you had a few items that could give serious boosts to melee damage, and dual wielding could get you wizardly damage, whereas spellcasters had to contend with the high cost of spells. Those items are gone, dual wielding was nerfed, gold is ubiquitous. Seriously: make spellcasters. EDIT 2: I'm not saying you NEED to be all spellcasters. I am saying that spellcasters are straight up better then warriors 100% all the time in Avernum 2. It was only 75% of the time in Avernum 1. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jul 29, 2017 |
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Jul 29, 2017 00:23
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Your party of 100% spellcasters is going to have a bitch of a time against Runewarded enemies and (IIRC) Doomguards. You want some capability to deal physical damage. Plus as noted by MagusOfStars, if your only damage source is magic, you're going to be running back to town all the time; there aren't enough energy potions in the game to fuel a 100% spell-based offense especially through the longer dungeons. Spells can deal physical damage, running back to town is easy, fast, and you have to do it less and less the more magic you have. That first one's a real big one, too, incidentally. Avernum 2 has basically no enemies that are straight up immune to magic. You have enemies who are immune to damage types, except spells can cover ALL DAMAGE TYPES, whereas melee can only cover, well, one. And enemy resistances tend to reduce damage waaaaay less then armor does.
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Jul 29, 2017 02:24
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Wait, what spell deals physical damage? There's fire, cold, lightning, and pure magic damage, but I don't recall any spells that deal physical damage. Unless you count putting a thorns status on your characters so that the enemy gets hurt when they attack you. Which you shouldn't, that status is solely there to dick over your fighters. Move Mountains. .....Also, are we talking about the same Avernum? How many runewarded enemies even ARE there in 2? I know there's a bunch on 1. Like, again, I'm not saying this is the only way to play. You can totally make almost any kind of party and still win in standard difficulty. But for the most bang for your buck? Spellcasters. Human ones. With enough points in weapon skills to get Adrenaline Rush and to get 10+2 in hardiness.
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Jul 29, 2017 04:00
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Most efficient isn't the same as most fun, after all! I just hope there's better benefits to not being a spellcaster in Avernum 3's remake, especially since that's the game with the Anama. Gimmie swole as gently caress swordsmen that can literally cut down barriers - gently caress "dispel."
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Jul 29, 2017 04:51
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Yeah, while I enjoyed Nethergate's remake (never played the original), it never got the attention Avernum and Geneforge did. And there is never going to be a third Blades of _______ game because the last one...well, yeah. I think it's gonna be Geneforge and New Game intermingled. I sorta remember Avernum 4, have very thin memories of 5 which I never beat, and never even played 6. 1-3 was for sure the "Main" trilogy, and I think it makes way more sense to cover Geneforge before going back to Avernum for a lot of reasons. I admit I am vaguely interested on how well the latter three Avernums sold compared to Geneforge. ...Also I just really want a remake of Geneforge 2, goddamn that game.
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Sep 13, 2017 05:31
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My biggest memory of the Exile series was getting Exile 2 as shareware over AOL's games tab, and getting just...loving weirdly obsessive with it, using the cheat editor to constantly reset my team back to the beginning after getting to the end of the demo to just play through it again and again, and also using the random shop inventory in the southwest of the upper caverns and retriggering it's random inventory in the cheat editor over and over again to equip myself with the greatest poo poo possible. I think I even made up stories about that group. I was a weird kid.
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Sep 21, 2017 09:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:In my opinion there isn't a good reason to play the first set of remakes. If you want the oldschool charm and jank, play the Exile trilogy. If you want a more pleasant UI, more fleshed-out writing, and extra content, play the re-remakes (e.g. Avernum: Escape from the Pit). The first set of remakes occupies an uncomfortable compromise between those two points. Not an empty post.
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Oct 11, 2017 04:22
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Remind me, in Exile 1, could you actually like...see your gear stats? For some reason I remember not being able to know what my armor and weapons and poo poo actually DID without going into the character editor. Also my biggest memories of Exile 1 aren't even any of the like, big end set pieces. They're the Honeycomb and the Spiral Cave. Especially the Spiral Cave.
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Oct 12, 2017 10:16
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These are in fact all connected, because Spiderweb Software is named after his former pet tarantula, Spider, who in turn inspired the GIFTS.
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Oct 18, 2017 04:11
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The farther into the game you go, the weaker melee gets. On higher difficulties, this goes even more so. Early on yes, melee is still REAL good, but to be honest, your firebolt should still mostly keep up with them. Near the end of the game, outside of tanking - which spellcasters can still easily do - the only real thing melee has is very high single target damage, and even then only if really utilizing dual wielding specific item combos. Or combo, as there's a singular good combo. That's not to say your melee characters will be a BURDEN - just that, once you start really getting your AoE spells, you'll watch your spellcasters do your melee single target damage to groups, and those melee dudes are gonna start to feel vestigial. And then Cloak of the Arcane happens... This is way, way worse in Avernum 2, where said weapon combo no longer exists, and dual wielding was nerfed.
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Oct 23, 2017 06:05
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Why would anyone ever side with them? I have bad news regarding "gamers" and nazis.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:10
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DACK FAYDEN posted:Am I forgetting something about Trajkov's character? Were there actual dialogues if you learned enough of their language and I just missed that? Dude didn't really... have any character. He was just like "island has crazy powers, da, you people with shaping powers, da, give me magic gloves so I use Geneforgeski" or whatever? Yeah, but nobody knows that. They just knew he fought against the Shapers. Myth and drift have done everything else.
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Oct 25, 2017 22:29
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The correct moral choices through the games are Awakened/Takers, Awakened/Takers, 3's factions are bad, Rebels w/ Trakovites, Astoria The Shapers are ruthless authoritarian tyrants who have literally manufactured a slave race to serve them. While the Takers fall victim to charismatic madmen, the dream of the Awakened is, in the end, too naive. We must take our free.
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Oct 26, 2017 04:13
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:It's also directly contraindicated by the implied origin of the Serviles in Geneforge 1: that they're the result of the original Shapers experimenting on their enemies. Zeniel posted:Yeah a lot of this is making me think hard about what is it about shaper power that's actually in any way beneficial, beyond consolidating power and manual labor. RoboChrist 9000 posted:Like, for all their arrogance, it seems to me that the core Shaper tenant is 'with great power comes great responsibility.' And that's super interesting and neat. The core Shaper tenant is "We're in charge." Everything after that is set up just to support their rulership. Yes, the Shapers now operate under the idea of "don't gently caress up and murder everyone," but that's after they consolidated their rulership atop the backs of a slave species. There's a dude in Geneforge 1 who's implied to have been an actual straight up living experiment of the Shapers, who's crime was...being a native of Sucia Island. Shapers don't have all their security measures out of benevolence - it's to ensure stability. EVERYTHING the Shapers do is out of a need for stability, not benevolence. There is in fact no pro-Shaper ending that doesn't involve either killing off the serviles entirely or forcing them back into slavery. One of the Shaper Council members runs a straight up concentration camp! And don't forget, their actual measures to ensure security is "murder everything in the general vicinity." EDIT: Geneforge the series happens because, rather then actually clean up their mess on Sucia Island, the Shapers just abandoned it with the idea that all their creations - including the serviles - would just eventually die out on their own, and thus it wasn't their problem. That's not the actions of a benevolent overlord. ProfessorCirno fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 29, 2017 |
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Oct 29, 2017 21:07
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This conversation mostly makes me want to replay the geneforge series, which is my roundabout way of saying "I'm ready to buy remakes of Geneforge 1 and 2"
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Oct 30, 2017 01:37
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B r i n g b a c k t h r e e s t a t s y s t e m
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Oct 30, 2017 22:02
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I like bigger parties when there's enough customizable content with good returns for the larger party. When you CAN have "the polearms guy, the two swords guy, the mace and shield guy, the priest, the mage, the thiefy archer," and all work out. Avernum 2 could've had a party size OF 2, when your only real options at higher difficulties are "mage or priest?"
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Oct 31, 2017 04:37
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So, what's the word on balance? Is it Avernum 2's "non-casters can suck it" still?Doorknob Slobber posted:i always get disappointed when i remember spiderweb software didn't make Realmz ...I've been trying to remember this game for actual literal years, holy poo poo.
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Feb 1, 2018 05:06
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I glanced down at the comments and this got even more hilarious as apparently a ton of this weird petty poo poo isn't even true.
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Feb 1, 2018 06:26
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And Tyler Too! posted:All 3 of the games are easy to curbstomp with casters but by no means have ever been "suck it" for daring to go melee or archery. In fact that's been the case since the original Exile games. You can complete the game with any party composition you want, and you can put it on cruise control by running with casters. Thing is, non-casters do literally nothing better then casters in Avernum 2. In Avernum 1, though it took some kinda specific itemization, you could have a (single) non-caster who could at least put out single target damage better then spellcasters could. This wasn't amazing - there are a number of problems non-casters face, and "I can do real good single target damage" isn't super valuable in a game where AoE damage is far more important - but it was still a "thing." In Avernum 2, they didn't even have that. This isn't "spellcasters are better because they have more options," this is "spellcasters render non-spellcasters literally obsolete." Gorelab posted:I'm amazed how many peopled marked that as 'positive' since it mostly seems to just be bitching about the fact that it's not EXACTLY the same as Avernum 3/Exile 3. Schwarzwald posted:I read don't read that review as "bitching" so much as stating "I didn't like it and here's why." The dude hasn't played the game. Large swathes of his complaints are straight up falsehoods. Like, we're laughing at the loving horses thing...but there are horses in the remake. Like, you can literally look at his profile to see that he's only played about 3 hours of the game - and going off comments, he didn't even have that much when he first wrote this. This is 100% a bizarre hit piece.
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Feb 1, 2018 22:42
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