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Kangra
May 7, 2012

I don't care what she ends up being called, I think she could be called Plenty O'Friendly.

Sigma is the 18th letter of the Greek alphabet ... and 18 is twice 9. That's the sort of thing that probably means everything or nothing.

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Kangra
May 7, 2012

I don't feel bad for Clover. I feel bad for everyone else. She's an unstable woman who's capable of going on a psychotic rampage.


Livingtrope posted:

No, she's the best at it. Think about it; if you use your real name as your codename, nobody will be able to guess your real name.

I knew someone named Han who use Han Solo as her camp name*; it worked perfectly.

*Camp name: pseudonym used by camp counselors to prevent kids from guessing their real name.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Other possible messages:

Mommy licked gent, woo!
We tickled mommy, goon.
Typical risqué humor for these games.

Demotic gem monk yowl
Alice, being from Egypt, naturally has a gem with some Demotic writing on it. It's going to make the robot monk scream.

Cloned my mig mew took.
The Russian fighter was stolen by a cat, but I duplicated it.

Toking model emmy? Cow.
Marijuana causes the camera to add ten pounds.

Monkey glowed, commit.
Luminescent simians will be institutionalized.

Gloomy wicked moment
Why Zero III started this game.


From a little while back:

Bruceski posted:

There's probably some obvious reason I'm missing, but why wouldn't counselors want kids to know their real name?

Because if they have your True Name then they have all power over you!

I suppose that's not quite the sole reason. Most camps that do it probably just do it out of tradition, but if pressed for a sociological explanation I'd say it's to reinforce the idea of camp as a place away from 'normal' society. Having a distinctive, often silly name that is clearly not the name used in the outside world is yet another way to do that. Although in other circumstances kids and adults will play the same game (if they know your first name, they'll ask your last; if they know your last name, they'll ask your first).

In the comment I just wanted to put in brief that there was reason for the 'code name' to be harder to guess, even if it's only for fun.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I wouldn't be surprised if the colors change with the numbers to allow for varying groups. It might even be the meta-puzzle of this game (getting everyone to 9 by changing colors in the right pattern). After all if the BP can change the other data might well change too.

And I would not be at all surprised if color blindness plays a role somehow. Tenmyouji went last in calling out, and it was obvious what his color had to be, so he's a good candidate. As is K. I just hope it doesn't cause him to turn evil. "I just wanted to see the colors!"

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I'm actually really glad they didn't try to pretend this was going to be anything but filled with bizarre creations and wacky abilities. Sure, 999 pulled kind of a bait-and-switch, or at the very least didn't play its full hand until the end, but there's no reason to try that with the sequel. Honestly I think it'd be kind of annoying.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Let's see what's behind the Magenta door with Luna.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

njsykora posted:

Magenta Pair: Tenmyouji (1) and Quark (6)
Magenta Solo: K (6)

This is setting up a nice route for Quark to actually turn out evil: Suppose Quark convinces him to Ally instead of Betray? Then when K logically votes Betray to stop Quark from winning, Tenmyouji is out. Though there is that question of 'shared destiny' and whether pairs end up dying too.

So long to Zero III (at least for now). I suspect this was the game's way of commenting on the early disappearance of Zero in the other game by addressing it more directly. At least we won't have to hear 'B.O.' for a while. Nicknames that would've been better: "Ronnie", "Holy Diver", "Marlon","Torch-passer","Non-allopath".


I have a theory on Phi's 'seen this before' but I'm uncertain if I'm semi-spoiled by playing a browser game that was apparently influenced by this game. It was linked in the 999 thread and it's called Nobody Has to Die.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I'd expect this game would stabilize with everyone constantly betraying barring at least some 'Cooperative' players.

I think we could use some of the principles of the Iterated PD strategy to analyze strategy in this one.

Consider the goal of the Cooperative player to be 'successfully exit with as many other players as possible'.

To this end, the player would:

* Not exit as soon as they reach 9 if other players are under 9.
* Work to let any player with few points to raise their total.
* Never allow for a death, including their own.
* Block any Non-cooperative players from reaching 9 before anyone else.
* Ignore past betrayals if they aided cooperation.

The first three are easy to satisfy:
If BP is 2 or lower, always Betray.
Otherwise, always Ally with an opponent who is at or under 2 BP.

It's the blocking, and the decision as to who is 'Non-cooperative' that is tough. I don't think there's a good way to definitely stop a win at the high end that doesn't lock up at some point (especially since the game as a whole only has one outcome and is not repeated). At best, it may be subjective based on behavior in intermediate scores.

Here's a possibility for other cases :
Against an unknown or C player who is at 6 or lower, Ally. Class a player who breaks this rule as NC.

Against an NC player with 6 or more points, Betray.

Obviously this fails to the 'false friend' who plays as a C up until they get 7 points and Betray you. But trying to block every possible win is just going to end up with a stalemate once everyone gets to a certain level.

Pairs do cause a lot of upheaval, though. Consider a pair of (C1 - NC6). If Betrayal is expected from a C player with 1 point, then blocking the NC player at 6 is probably the best route to go. On the other hand we have a fair amount of choice as to who plays against whom, so matches like this can be minimized if not avoided entirely.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

You mean this guy?
severely missed naming opportunity by that artist

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I don't see why K & Tenmyouji wouldn't mutually agree to Betray. K clearly does not desire to kill him. If they decide it ahead of time, there's no motive to switch to Ally.

It's hard to let anyone go with Luna, but I'd expect that Phi will not want to Betray since only Dio escapes in that case. So she can keep Dio in check.

Based on this I think C is the best choice to keep everyone alive and nobody from escaping just yet.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Cake Attack posted:

Furthermore, K is at 6, so if Tenmyoji allys and K betrays, he's at 9 and can leave.

I don't see how that's a motive for either K or Tenmyouji to Ally. That pairing is a stalemate, but it might be better than risking other matchups.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Mentioned it in the 999 thread, and it seems even more relevant now: If you're interested in this stuff, The Mind's I (edited by Daniel Dennett and Douglas Hofstadter) is a nice collection of stories/articles/papers that deal with this subject. It includes Searle's Chinese Room as well as Dennett's own "Where Am I?" (which discusses a disconnection of perception, control, and consciousness as GOLM was on about), along with a few other items of interest like the Turing Test and Dawkins's invention of the meme.

The mention of numeric puns made me think of something -- was 999 itself supposed to be a pun? (san kyu i.e. 'thank you' which would be an appropriate message from the past) I don't really know if that's the actual title or if in Japanese it would be read that way, but the note on the name code made me think it could well be.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

They never really got as far as discussing it (since the whole mechanism whereby alternate timelines exist is barely even mentioned), but it also seems that there is a question of what the true history of an object is if it can pass through multiplie hands in alternate endings. For instance, is it wrong to call it "Clover's axe" if she didn't use it in the final outcome? It's not quite the same question as the continuity of a thing over time, but it does seem related. It's even possible this touches on who or what Alice actually is.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

orenronen posted:

Except that's not what the Japanese line is about at all. Honestly, it's one of the few cases where the Japanese is much better than the translation they came up with.

So "middle of" isn't a crucial bit of information, and the connection to "Middle Kingdom" was invented by the translators. How did they screw it up that bad? All they needed to do was cut it off a word earlier.

Am I not incorrect in thinking Sigma's assessment of Phi as thirteen is way off base? She looks exactly how old she says she is to me, and indeed he does look a bit older than 22 (but not by much).

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I think the 'you look like you're 13' does make sense as an insult, thanks.


whitehelm posted:

How is it bad for the translators to do their own silly thing for Phi rather than rely on a Japanese pun that isn't easily localized?

That's not what's bad. What's bad is that it's impossible for the phrase 'middle of' to become 'Middle Kingdom'. Aside from that, as SingerofW pointed out, it's a stretch to even take the word 'middle' to mean that. It's hard to get from there to "Chinese Room" too. This is only one bit in a project that otherwise has been very good, but it is off in almost every way possible.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Zoe posted:

I'm sure it's been brought up before, but we've already had references to quantum computing and Schrodinger's Cat, and we've got a kid named 'Quark' on the cast, so I'm guessing the obligatory mindfuck this game is centered around will involve all that?

That seems likely, though given the way things ended up in 999 I doubt it'll need to have much connection to QM as it's generally understood. We still know that Phi may have some future/alternate dimension knowledge that will come into play. I expect some sort of "we have to collapse the waves forms!" to be the eventual solution.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

There is the chance she was too distraught to vote. Probably spent the entire time looking for axes.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Color Printer posted:

EDIT: vvv I'm not really arguing that she won't, I'm just saying "psychotic tendencies" just sounds like a really funny label. One incident does not a tendency make.

Reacting to a terribly stressful event in an entirely inappropriate and violent way (such as murdering everyone around you) is practically the definition of psychotic. That's not to say she has to follow some specific psychological response, but it wouldn't be surprising either from that angle or the meta-game aspect of it.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Even before she turned up dead I thought there was a possibility that Luna is an android. There's no way to know why, but she could have put in the game by Zero after the old woman was killed to keep people from noticing anything wrong (or to suspect each other). It could explain her apparent innocence and sincerity too. She might not even be 'dead' depending on how androids work.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

theshim posted:

A question: Are we sure that only one room was moved?

The total picture has only shifted one room over (see pipes picture previously posted) but presumably all the rooms in between could have been shuffled. Except there doesn't seem to have been anything found in any of the others, so I don't know what difference it would make.

e: the pipes aren't conclusive, it's the letters on the floor that are.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

K gave us a pretty detailed timeline of events when we spoke to him. So this choice comes down to either K is lying (presumably because he killed Luna) or he is telling the truth. And if he is telling the truth, Dio almost certainly did not kill Luna.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I think it's entirely possible that Dio saw Luna dead or halfway there (or unconscious), and simply didn't bother. If anyone would have done that, it'd be him.

Given that K seems least likely based on what we know at this point but had plenty of time to do it (who tries CPR for that long without at least trying to get someone's attention?) it won't surprise me at all if he did administer the poison. Reasons will probably come later. Clover might have knocked her down and then K made sure she stayed that way.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Added Space posted:

I assume the whole flipped letter thing is supposed to be harder for Japanese audiences since they'd be less familiar with English characters.

They said that about Dangan Ronpa, too. Honestly I think it'd be really funny if it turns out to be 01b meaning one in binary, or 27 hexadecimal.

This turn of events does fit my suspicion of Quark. Suppose he is Zero but put himself in the game just like everyone else. Dio handcuffs Clover and Tenmyouji, maybe because he suspects Clover of killing Luna and wants her to talk, or because he's trying to keep them where they are until Quark shows up. Quark figures out that they won't make it so he needs to get his wristband off (which, being Zero, he knows how to do) so he simply discards his. K might go after Dio if he though he killed one of the others (Luna), and Quark finished off K.

(I'm using 'Zero' to mean the mastermind of the game here, regardless of their in-game name.)

Kangra
May 7, 2012

TaxEvader posted:

They might all be gaulems. Assuming we get to go back to other routes there has to be an explanation of how that happens (in game) and I don't think we've seen any so far. Everyone being a gaulem and having memories reset or partially wiped might be one. I would think their not being aware of that fact would be essential for whatever Zero Sr. is hoping to achieve.

I had the same thought this morning after readin this. It could all be an experiment in artificial intelligence -- trying to imbue the gaulems with empathy/reason/more complex intelligence and they'll keep uploading new models until it works out right.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

The 999 paradox is as W.T. Fits laid out - there shouldn't be a timeline in which she both exists as Zero and dies as a child in the incinerator. There's not a good explanation as to why the [or any, but we only see one] timeline in which she sets up the Nonary Game is privileged for her to follow, other than that she potentially survives. Although I don't really see it as a problem in a narrative sense considering the majority of time-travel plots don't make logical sense.

I don't see it being a problem in this game unless you introduce time travel or it turns out Sigma is behind it all.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

It'd be cool if they actually used the AED the way actual defibrillators work and not the way the characters [and just about all popular depictions] think they do. Which is to say, it would stop the heart. If all goes well the heart's pacemaker will restore the normal rhythm after a shock, so using it is survivable. Depending on the bracelet sensor it could be for long enough to cause that to release.

e: On second thought, an AED, being automated, wouldn't fire unless it detected fibrillation, so they probably would have to induce it somehow. Maybe there's a drug for that.

Kangra fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Sep 7, 2013

Kangra
May 7, 2012

If Quark thinks that he's sick and needs to get out it could lend some support to the idea that Quark really was jumping on the Betray button, although it doesn't quite explain why he wouldn't mention it to the others. Another option is that he thinks everyone there is sick and does need to die there (as he said in the earlier run).

There has been talk about Radical-6 and quarantine, but it seems odd that this is the first we've heard of a cure/control for it.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Would've got more ethanol if it had been a llama in the container (llamas are larger than frogs).

Is anyone else bothered when they all pretend not to be Japanese in a translation like this? Unless Sigma actually isn't supposed to be Japanese and that comment is original. It comes off a bit awkward to me. May as well just change the dialogue to something else, or keep it as it is and expect that most players know they're playing a game that's been translated.



vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
He's not Japanese. Fair enough.

Kangra fucked around with this message at 07:29 on Oct 18, 2013

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I'd lay two to one odds that Dio isn't in the room (or is passed out/dead inside it) and he'll end up auto-allying. After all the build-up and the fact that nobody saw him enter it seems like exactly what the game would do.

What's more interesting is what K is up to. Does he have something he needs to talk to Alice about and the AB room is the only place to do it?

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I really get the sense from Tenmyouji's cryptic comment that Quark is the one who's a robot. It would fit both not really being an elementary school kid and other statements Ten has said (he seems at times to not want to say he's literally his grandpa, which would make more sense if he built/purchased him).

Contrary to that is the 'Radical-6' that Quark has, but we can't be entirely sure that he really has the disease. I tend to side more with the idea that it is a hoax, or at the least that Quark doesn't have the virus.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I don't see this as being quite as much a problem with breaking the narrative, at least in terms of causality, as it is the problem of disengaging the player from the character.

First, there is the problem that something we did that ought to be a meaningful choice no longer is, because the game changed itself around us. It is a breach of trust in the rules of the game, or at least the perceived rules. That's something that might be worked around, and must at minimum be acknowledged. I do have some faith that VLR will do this.

What I find most annoying is that we can expect Sigma to be berated for betraying Alice when she allied with him. It doesn't seem like he ought to have a defense for this, because the game's structure should allow this path to be followed in ignorance of the other paths. Now any player who went the other direction first certainly can't feel bad about this decision, because they know the outcome of going the other way. So any criticism of Sigma's actions are going to feel hollow from here on out.

It seems like this must eventually happen to any player. Even if this is literally the only choice where the decision changes, it's still going to break the connection between the player's reaction and the in-game character's reaction for any future choices. Prior to this, the decision to eventually betray Luna felt at least as if it might carry some emotional weight, but since the game may well be pre-determined to a particular outcome, there isn't any reason for the player to feel positive or negative about the choice itself -- it's just another method of advancing the plot.

In short, I don't think the writers broke the game, it's just that a lot of in-game talk has been about one subject becomes meaningless once you get deeper into the game. In my opinion 999 suffered from a similar problem, although there it felt like just obfuscatory padding, and not the violation of an important motivation for the player to continue.

TheOneAndOnlyT posted:

Another thing: considering that Sigma noticed when the old woman wasn't in the AB room, I will be highly surprised if the game doesn't immediately acknowledge Alice's changing vote. I doubt we'll get an explanation, but I also doubt the game will just let it go.

I think this is one of the only ways I can see this working out. If Sigma can somehow tap into an alternate reality and confront Alice with the fact that she killed him by betraying, then this could become engaging again. That doesn't seem to be the way the game is structured, but it's entirely possible it works differently than what we've seen so far.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

idonotlikepeas posted:



code:
@name{Stevie Wonder}

@stratname{Very Superstitious}

@author{idonotlikepeas}

@strategy{
def decide(info):
    whiteboard = 1
    if info.whiteboard:
        whiteboard = int(info.whiteboard) + 1     # writing's on the wall

    info.whiteboard = whiteboard
    if whiteboard % 7 == 0:
        return True
    if whiteboard % 13 == 0:
        return False                              # ladder's 'bout to fall
    if whiteboard % 666 == 0:
        return False                              # devil's on his way

    youdontwannasaveme = False 

    if info.facts.opponentid and info.scoreboard:
       for e in info.scoreboard:
           if e.id == info.facts.opponentid:
               if e.murders > 0 or e.ruthlesspercent >= 80:
                   youdontwannasaveme = True      # sad is my song
               if e.nicepercent >= 80:            # good things in your past
                   youdontwannasaveme = False     # keep me in a daydream, keep me goin' strong

    games = LookupGames(7, info.facts.opponentid) # seven games of bad luck
    for g in games:
        if not g.dummy:
            result = g.GetOutcomeFor(info.facts.myid)
            if result == 'Sucker' or result == 'MutualBetray':
                youdontwannasaveme = True
    
    return not youdontwannasaveme
}

I don't quite get how this works. But I have faith that it's probably a good strategy.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

It would also have to screw up people's perception of the weight of objects for it to be viable. But really, the 'lunar eclipse' theory seems to make a lot more sense, putting us on Earth looking at the moon, not somewhere else.

Given the chromatic doors and color being part of the game, I wonder if the red is meaningful in that sense. Somewhat related, have we seen a lion being specifically pointed out as being green yet? I think most of them have been orange. (The lion devouring the sun is traditionally shown as green, and thought to be ferrous sulfate.)

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Putnopvut posted:

I'm going to throw my two cents in and guess that Tenmyouji is Brother and that he's protective of Quark because Quark is a clone of Left and reminds Brother of Left's childhood death. Or maybe Quark is some sort of time-hopped original Left, which would make Tenmyouji/Brother's protectiveness make even more sense.

I don't get the need for time-shifting, but I was thinking something like this. Quark could be a 'rescued' clone that Tenmyouji pulled out of the cult. Temyouji could also be Brother/Left's father, making a clone of Left practically his 'grandson'. Though Dio said he himself was 'fourth generation'. We don't know if that's clones of clones, or the fourth-generation of the cloning technology applied to what's left of Left after he was left for dead.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I like that if you knew nothing of the first game, Akane comes off sounding like a terrorist that Junpei is trying to bring to justice.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Glazius posted:

I suppose we should always bust plot locks when we have the chance. Let's finger Dio.

pre:
Login: dio                           Name: Left
Directory: /vlr/dio                  Shell: /bin/bash/face
On since Tue Dec 19  07:41 (UTC) on console, idle 00:18 (messages off)

No Mail.
Plan: Infiltrate facility, plant bombs.  Be a dick.
You're right, we should have done this earlier.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I sort of side with the idea that 'the real' Zero is in the future trying to find the answers in the past, a la Twelve Monkeys (it also parallels with 999 nicely). It's probably Sigma as well. I wouldn't be surprised if he has an 'agent' in the time period, maybe whoever the Gaulem is (the idea being that the Gaulem can be tempomorphically programmed to set up the whole thing). I'd bet on K for that, or possibly Phi.

Kangra
May 7, 2012

Holy crap I just figured out something about a character. [spoiler deleted] Now I have to read all the updates again...


vvvvvvv
It's something I guessed at from re-reading an update. I guess I got a bit overly excited about it. I've also had it confirmed as correct without spoiling anything else.

Actually, since I confirmed it as true, that counts as a proper spoiler, so I deleted it. No reason not to wait until it actually happens to discuss it.

Kangra fucked around with this message at 04:05 on May 11, 2015

Kangra
May 7, 2012

I edited my post to delete who I mentioned, since it's technically a confirmed spoiler. You may want to delete it from your quote.

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Kangra
May 7, 2012

Maybe for the Ferengi, 'my boat' is a curse, like 'my rear end': "Root beer floats, my boat!"

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