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Adept is good at specializing, 'ware is better at being well rounded. Pure shootymans, go adept. Wanna talkymans too, go with 'ware.
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Aug 24, 2018 20:46
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| # ¿ May 9, 2024 00:57 |
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I feel like people get really caught up in magic because magic theoretically has no cap, but at the same time, that's absolutely absurd and stupid, because games do not last forever. And this thread was real goddamn guilty of that too! My general advice that I give is, in the long scope, adept is good at specializing in one thing and doing that one thing with a lot of flair, whereas sammies (or anyone with 'ware really) are better at being well rounded and having a lot of tricks. In the short term, right out of chargen, they are in almost all aspects equal, or at least equal enough that there is no singular "right answer." I guess likewise over the long term, sammies will probably have more health and armor, adepts more dodge, though that's hardly written in stone. But like hey, turns out, you absolutely do not need to be a super adept with a dice pool of 30+. That's entirely pointless! Why would you need that? The common enemies in the game don't have those kinda dice pools! So, to the guy making a character: Ignore people in this very thread claiming you have to dump absolutely everything into shooting. You do not, and frankly, making a dumb minmax character like that will only make the game less fun for everyone involved as you steal the spotlight nonstop to shoot people, and then are a miserable failure at absolutely everything else. Elves are good at being a shootymans who also talks; humans are good at being anything, and while they can't specialize into shootymans and talking like elves, you can instead specialize into being extremely lucky, which believe me does count for a lot. Go adept if you want to be magic; go 'ware if you want to be non-magical. It actually is that simple. And don't try to "break combat over your knee." It's Shadowrun. The combat came pre-broken. You can break combat by something as simplistic as "using grenades and realizing the ceiling and floor exist." Hell, get a nice car, ask a friendly mage to get a strong Spirit of Air to throw Movement on it, and proceed to launch yourself off the planet at light speed. These rules don't work to begin with! Also, as for "the problem with this game," at least here, the problem is that the point buy system has a ceiling and a floor that aren't even in sight of each other, and it's neigh impossible to know what's "too little" or "too much" for your dice pool, and the best - and kinda only - solutions are for the GM to either accept that their job is going to be a nightmare, accept that they are going to steamroll the players (or be steamrolled) without a hitch, or have a long and probably boring discussion about where you want the difficulties to be at. Also monowhips are mechanically stupid. They're supposed to be very difficult and exotic, but because they use agility to attack, have a static damage value, and don't actually have any downsides beyond "don't critically glitch" - which every weapon has if we're being honest - this rare and exotic and weird weapon only for masters is somehow also wielded by like half the runners on the planet.
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Aug 25, 2018 03:42
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This is the part where I state once again how hilarious it is to me how much better the Shadowrun games from Harebrained were then the actual Shadowrun tabletop game.
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Aug 25, 2018 21:29
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This mostly just reminds me how much I've come to dislike the number crunching in how gear works.
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Aug 26, 2018 22:15
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I'm incredibly over nuyen as a point-based character building system, to be honest. Access to better gear should be done entirely through contact access and explicitly stated as such, whether that's through brown nosing up to the right Johnson and getting access to better gear from a corp, or being the local hero of a neighborhood and knowing a guy who knows a guy who sells guns that fall off corpsec and military trucks, or, especially early on, by knowing someone important enough to owe them a favor in exchange for an upgrade.
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Aug 27, 2018 17:36
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Like I said, I've come down hard on actually having a specific "number" for nuyen period, for a lot of reasons (like how for starters that's just straight up not how poo poo works in life). Replace it with your lifestyle altogether and remove it as it's current use of "alternative point based character upgrading." Make it, you know, actual money.
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Sep 2, 2018 20:35
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Early Shadowrun also realized that tone was like, a thing, and actually hinted that you should try to make your cyberpunks into actual punks. By 4th edition, Shadowrun had largely given up on that, and just shrugged and assumed you were in this because you really wanted to be "extra cool" corporate lackies. Thankfully, the Harebrained Schemes crew did not make the same mistake, which is one of the many, many reasons the actual recent Shadowrun games are better then actual Shadowrun is. Like, the Berlin campaign is technically about it's larger overarching plotline, but it's also pretty just as much about keeping Your Neighborhood good and safe. If there's something Shadowrun needs more of, it's in-game community. Even something as basic as the whole "ten questions" or whatever that other games do to help define your character to give you actual connections beyond Contacts.
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Sep 26, 2018 04:17
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I am 1000% down for the internet being and having some Weird Mystic Bullshit going on, but my tastes demand it be mysterious, poorly understood, and kinda creepy. SR5 wants to be weird mystic bullshit but they keep...explaining everything. And, I stand in agreement that techno stuff should be different and not just a variant flavor of wizard.
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Sep 28, 2018 07:31
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For me at least, a good chunk of it really is just aesthetics. I like the feel of creepy 90's emerging sentience internet. Realistically. the world has shrunk down to like five websites, so the Shadowrun Matrix is already anachronistic with it's actual multitude of places to go and whatnot, so it may as well be anachronistic in a way I enjoy. Also if we're going to call out magic, I still liked it better when "wizard" and "shaman" were more different from a fluff and aesthetics perspective 
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Sep 28, 2018 17:30
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I mean, I maintain you don't have to get this...let's go with "high concept" to add some pizzazz to your Matrix. Just stop thinking in terms of "epic" and think more in terms of "urban myth." Servers that can't be shut down because they don't seem to have a physical location, creepy websites that kill people, ghosts wandering social media sites, devices suddenly wi-fi connecting when they shouldn't have any wi-fi access, Black ICE hurting people who aren't fully decked in, and in the most extreme, Matrix poo poo starting to bleed into the real world. There's a lot of cool functional space there to stick technos, whether they're a creepy clan of street kids who banded together because the Matrix is as much their home as the physical world, talking to the dead and loving over people with literally cursed viruses, or sleek modern technos going on a deep dive into phantom datasites and impossible archives or connecting directly to computers just by touching them.
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Sep 29, 2018 09:19
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Liquid Cannibalism posted:Having a spirit use it's travel power unexpectedly on an enemy vehicle is also fun. Yeah, it's worth remembering that Movement isn't like, a flat increase; it's way dumber. It sends Banshees into light speed.
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Oct 9, 2018 10:36
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The pregens thing is hilarious because, from what I remember, the problem was that the people making the pregens were using like, pre-alpha versions of the rules to do it...except they didn't even have the same pre-alpha set of rules. So the pregens all break the rules in different ways, becaues they all had a different version of the rules, and none of them were the actual right rules.
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Dec 15, 2018 05:54
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Aesculus posted:I've been getting the cyberpunk itch too from Cyberpunk 2077 and am kind of missing SR. Reading the last few pages, is the consensus still "just play the harebrained games and their mods"? I haven't been a part of any of the live communities or whatever for a few years so I have no idea what's going on with them or if they're still/became good. I dunno if SR5 is still worth playing, but the Hong Kong and Dragonfall are both just legitimately loving good games, and I remember some of the user made scenarios being legit too. I advise playing those even if you aren't interested in Shadowrun, really.
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Dec 15, 2018 22:17
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The Hairbrained games actually made a really good niche for melee: it knocks enemies out of cover. When you aren't using individual initiative rules and instead go with team initiative, that becomes incredibly valuable. Smack a dude out of cover, your allies light them up, you run to the next guy to smack out of cover. On top of that, melee didn't use agility at all, so you didn't have the constant issues that Shadowrun has with demanding additional attributes, and both cyberweapons and adept weapon focuses had unique and real good attacks only they got.
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Feb 12, 2019 05:48
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I think the big problem is, quite frankly, the assumption that you're literally just going to the store to buy your 'ware and major gear and spending nuyen on it, instead of getting it as actual rewards for runs or getting it through calling in big favors. Remove Nuyen as a literal point by point purchase mechanic, shove everything it would normally do into your lifestyle, and instead use your Rep as an actual currency and connect that to your Contacts. Every goddamn decker in the fluff builds their own deck, but PCs are expected to literally go down to FutureCompUSA and purchase one.
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Apr 11, 2019 05:33
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I think part of the problem is that Runners by and large are supposed to be the SINless, which in turn is supposed to be a major disadvantage, but a lot of those disadvantages get handwaved away, getting fake SINs is extremely and laughably easy, and on top of that, SINner is such an easy disadvantage that a large number of people take it. Like part of the reason you end up as a Runner is because legally you don't exist.
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Apr 12, 2019 22:16
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I think technos fit into the setting just fine, the problem is that Shadowrun doesn't want to really lean into the weird and creepy with them out of fear of it being overpowered, because everyone in the Shadowrun fandom is stark raving terrified of their gear being hosed around with. The way I see it, deckers should still have a gun on them, and technos are the ones turning electronics traitor, including electronics that aren't even hooked up to the Matrix, or rather weren't hooked up, but are now, because gently caress you, it's creepy Matrix magic. It worked a bit better thematically when they were Otaku, not because they were all kids or because the rules were better, but because the Matrix was filled with weird bullshit and AIs weren't a loving character option. I think part of the problem with "why not just get a relaxing corp job" is that Shadowrun hasn't been pushed as a dystopia in like, awhile. A "cushy corp job" is meant to be a horrible wage slave existence with 12 hour a day shifts (no weekends, naturally) paid at least half in company script, with half your day being spent appeasing the shittiest middle management possible, who in turn have the threat of "liquidation" hanging over their heads at all times. Somewhere in 4e came the idea that the corps were in any way efficient, and like, no. The whole point is that one of them is straight up a dragon and it makes no difference because they're all monsters. This is also where the whole super security state flew off the rails hard - Runners were supposed exist in part because the megacorps and their petty sociopath tyrants were all so equally terrible and lovely at their actual jobs that there's millions of cracks for people to fall though - and exploit. Basically, Shadowrun keeps trying to push the idea that capitalism is ultimately successful, and of course that doesn't work in a cyberpunk game.
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Apr 14, 2019 20:45
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Liquid Communism posted:When 'has gear' is the defining characteristic of half the standard character archetypes, yeah, people don't like having that hosed with. Especially since, at the book's payout suggestions, it is essentially impossible to replace cyberdecks, major cyberware systems, and high-value drones in play due to them being a dozen sessions' worth of takehome. You forget, I am and will always be a proponent of PCs and NPCs working on different rules. I never said they should break gear, also. They should subvert it. Kill off the dumb wireless bonuses to 'ware, curtail bioware severely, make the Matrix a mix of wired and wireless, and then let technos ignore all that to varied degrees.
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Apr 15, 2019 07:16
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I can't wait to hate it yet still spend stupid amounts of time understanding it.
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May 1, 2019 13:17
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They are rushing this to an incredibly strange degree. It just got announced, and now it's in print, with almost *no* previews in advance?
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May 11, 2019 10:23
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It's always weirded me out that Shadowrun assumes corps will actually pour money into increasingly cost-ineffective security measures rather then just continue to cut corners into perpetuity, but Shadowrun has always weirdly bought into pro-capitalism propaganda.
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Jun 7, 2019 20:55
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Ronwayne posted:Why do they need to worry about security when a lot of GMs will just tear open a portal to the elemental plane of cops the second the PC's fail a stealth or hacking test? Attempting stealth is for losers. Always go loud.
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Jun 8, 2019 05:45
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Lord_Hambrose posted:I hope the new edition of Cyberpunk is good. I have always been much more into the Elves and Magic parts of Shadowrun so I have never really checked Cyberpunk out. Hopefully everyone being dudes with cybernetics will produce a better game. Cyberpunk 2020 was not a good game. I can't speak for the other editions, but the OG one is...euuuuughhhhhh.
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Jun 17, 2019 15:34
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I know nothing about SR6, and it'll probably be poo poo, but that attempt at a review was so bad it actually makes the game look better? Like the dude clearly thought he had a real winner with the Men in Black comparison, and boy,
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Jul 12, 2019 23:58
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There is a part of me that absolutely wants to donate to this kickstarter just so I can laugh at it, because holy poo poo.
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Jul 18, 2019 10:40
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If we're looking into cyberpunk there's also our own Ettin's Hard Wired Island
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Aug 5, 2019 02:55
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Mr. Lobe posted:what edition of shadowrun should you play if you want to play an edition that sucks the least? I've never actually played so this is a sincere inquiry Lord_Hambrose posted:Just play Blades in the Dark with the following modifications: It's basically this. Otherwise, I'm not super familiar with 3e anymore it's been awhile - but 4e and 5e both have their issues. 4e is really bad about balance; technomancers and adepts are atrocious, decking is done almost entirely through gear so it's not even really a main occupation anymore, and 'ware is stupid cheap and grossly better then any other option. Likewise, there's two guns that outshine everything thanks to some extremely stupid ways that ammo was written. Flavor wise, it seemed very much aimed at the professional mirrorshades never get caught no fun allowed gamestyle, with almost no actual punk to be seen. 5e is a lot better balanced across the board, but then runs into problems where technomancers are technically better but still not good, limits exist purely to make things less fun and enjoyable, there's a lot of stupid extra rules added that do nothing to make the game more enjoyable, and while the fluff tries to be more "punk" it's also super loving dumb in a lot of unenjoyable ways, so while you can try to be more punk and have fun with it, every now and then you remember the metaplot is evil nanomachine ghosts and you start to sigh. Also, as has been mentioned a few times now, the editing in 5e is absolutely atrocious, and it says a lot that 6e editing manages to be worse. In BOTH editions, mages are significantly stronger then they should be, though in 4e it's due to how certain stun damage spells work, and in 5e it's due to how good summoning is. I'm personally a bigger fan of 5e which probably comes out in how I describe the two editions, but really, just play Blades in the Dark.
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Sep 18, 2019 05:38
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I'm iffy on "hacky wizards." Otaku were cool because they intentionally didn't make any goddamn sense. Technomancers and the new Matrix suck because they're making the same mistake Lucas made and they're trying to overly explain everything. Weird Matrix poo poo is cool when nobody actually knows how the gently caress it's happening because it helps paint the 6th World as something at least a little impossible to fully understand - like, there's no reason for these e-ghosts and Otaku and stuff to exist, but they do, and even wizards can't explain them because it's explicitly not magic, it's something new and terrifying. I mean, get rid of the whole "they have to be teens" aspect, mind you, but "this group of weirdos is connected to the Matrix at all times, even when not physically connected, and they can do some buck wild crazy poo poo with Matrix technology - which is also goddamn everything - and nobody knows what the gently caress" is great. Stop trying to explain everything. As for 'ware and Essence and stuff, I've always thought it'd be way better to remove the whole "it kills your souuuuuul" thing and instead tie it to explicitly becoming non-human. Like, getting a cyberarm in of itself sans-upgrades should cost literally zero Essence. It's just a loving arm. Now, getting an arm made of knives is gonna cost a bit, because now you forever know how easy it is to just pop someone's head off, even as you sleep at night. Basically, replace "Essence" with "Turning yourself into a loving gun." And like, at least TRY to explain it. I know I never shut up about how good a lot of the second edition book Cybertechnology is, but that's for a reason. It's pretty effective at explain why all this 'ware is such a horrifying idea beyond baying about souls and whatnot. Cyber-eyes don't hurt your essence because technology is inherently evil, cyber-eyes hurt your essence because the entire world looks like a video game and you can't stop dissociating from your own life. Going about your business every day with literal targets painted on everyone's faces is going to gently caress you up. Wired Reflexes don't hurt your essence because there's something mystically sacred about your spine, it hurts your essence because they're reflexes - you can't control them - and you've sacrificed your ability to live a normal life and now have to forever sit with your back to the wall to ensure you don't accidentally murder innocent people, all to get a better edge on, well, murdering. In other words, change Essence from "having a disability means you have less of a soul" and instead use "turning yourself into a literal object to be used by other people is dehumanizing and also demanded by late stage capitalism." Low Essence characters aren't hosed up because they infringed on the inherent magic of being whatever schlub you were born as, they're hosed up because they turned themselves into a weapon to be used by other psychopaths. Oh yeah, and SURGE was extremely loving stupid.
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Oct 3, 2019 10:16
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Liquid Communism posted:I think the take you missed is that Cyber-eyes hurt your Essence because you're literally making yourself into an inanimate object. Magic only deals with living things. Hence why bioware didn't use to take Essence, because it was alive, just different. That was super complex for game mechanics, though, so it got simplified and rather lost something in the process. I'm saying I prefer both a) unified 'ware, and b) connecting 'ware to the actual themes of cyberpunk such as forced dehumanization. 'Ware isn't bad because you're making yourself a non-living object, because poo poo, that covers half my drat teeth at this point. 'Ware is bad because you're turning yourself into something inhuman and inherently disposable. Cyberpunk shouldn't say "capitalism is bad because it hurts your Magic Score," it should be "capitalism is bad because it forces you to turn yourself into a plastic gun, to be fired and thrown away."
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Oct 3, 2019 10:25
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Mulva posted:Don't get ware and you aren't dehumanized. You could cut off every part of your body and replace it with clone parts and you will never lose Essence. You can replace your teeth with fake teeth and never lose Essence. You only lose Essence when you are in an extreme situation and throwing weird crap in there. Ok, but the rules as they are don't say that. The rules as they are say "getting a prosthetic limb means you are less human then those around you," which is hosed. Like I said, a generic cyberarm should maybe come with the social problems of being too poor to afford a new clone arm, but having it shave off parts of your soul - while we're covering people who exist in real life and already deal with this - is hosed. It also does a lot to push Shadowrun into Magerun, where magic is always good and everyone wants to be a wizard. At one point I toyed with ideas on how to change poo poo, and two of my big ones were "redo Essence big time" and make it more about dehumanization (where standard replacement 'ware did little to hurt your Essence and was more easily "healed") and re-separate shaman and mages, and give both more bite - because the only way to be a mage would be to register with a corp, and now they have their talons in you. The idea was to basically institute something similar to pre-SR4's two types of karma, but instead of one acting as Edge, it was more "one type of karma advances, one type heals;" the first would come from doing any sort of mission, the second only from explicitly doing missions to help people, allowing you to re-humanize your 'ware and come to better terms with your magic after using it to positively influence the world. You might still have problems where you turned yourself into a gun, but you can more easily justify it and come to terms with it if you're aimed at people who would hurt your community. And likewise, using magic means you are giving up part of your soul to a greater, weirder power, but if you can use it to good ends, you can strike a more easy balance with those forces. I think that's why both Dragonfall and Hong Kong had shaman NPCs and no mages - there's far more drama and narrative power in having to give up part of yourself to something else to be powerful then there is in D&D style wizardry from a book, because that second one has no drama or narrative hooks. Again, the goal is at least in part to stop being Magerun. I guess to put it another way, the problem with Shadowrun isn't that it's a dystopia, it's that it's turned into a dystopia where the corps are actually right, at which point it weirdly stops being a dystopia. There's a lot of things you can blame for it, but it awkwardly turns into an an-cap utopia, where money literally makes you a better, healthier person, and the best thing you can do is abandon your community and sell yourself to the corps to help put down to proles, because again, doing so is literally good for your soul.
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Oct 3, 2019 17:16
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Twincityhacker posted:I know this isn't traditional games, but Humble Bundle had all the Shadowrun games and their delux games for 75% off for the next day and a half. A bit late to this but both Hong Kong and Dragonfall are extremely good and substantially better then the actual tabletop game.
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Nov 18, 2019 09:51
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