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 Go is "the surrounding game". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irGmbwqqUNs Xyven posted:Go is one of those games where you don't win because you played better, but simply because you made less horrible fuckups than your opponent. Under 15 posted:People do worse online because they're usually smashed from drinking alone. This is because go is the most depressing game.  Fig. 1. A typical scene from a game of Go  Welcome to a thread about the most venerable and ancient art of igo or just go, also known as weiqi in Chinese, and baduk in Korean. Go is an ancient (estimated 2000-5000 years old) two-player board game from China which has simple, elegant rules but a vast, unfathomable complexity. It is also mainly about crushing your opponents spirit, whilst retaining the calm demeanour of a placid lake in springtime. Go enjoys great status in Japan, Korea and China but lives in the shadow of Chess in the west, which is a shame. It's a deeply aesthetically pleasing game. Some reasons why people like go: 0. From simple rules comes elegance, beauty and complexity 1. You don't have to memorize loads of crap, you can rely on intuition and clever thinking 2. You can improve quickly by just playing (and losing!) 3. The vast possibilities mean you can play all kinds of different styles and allow your creativity to flourish even at beginner ranks 4. Do cool kung-fu sounding poo poo like Crane's Nest, Patting The Raccoon's Belly and Getting Mad As All Hell, Not Going To Take It Anymore  Fig. 2. A nice thick goban (playing board) makes a great clacking noise when you slam the stones down to let your opponent know who's boss.  I will not give the rules here in any detail; as you follow through this thread you will see links that explain it far better than I could. But here is a rough summary: A typical game of go consists of a board with a 19x19 grid drawn on it (a goban). The players take turns to place stones at the intersections of the gridlines, with the aim to surround more empty space (territory) than their opponent. Once a stone has been placed, it does not move- unless it is captured. Stones are captured when you totally surround your opponent's stones. Essentially, players gain territory by capturing their opponents stones and stopping their stones from being captured.  Fig. 3. All the black stones here are in "atari" (ring any bells??). They're almost completely surrounded, and if it's white's turn, she will be able to completely surround them and remove them from the board. Not cool for black imo But go is more than just trying to capture stones. It's essentially a game about balance; trading positions on the board in a struggle to get ahead, get the edge on your opponent, like an elaborate swordfight. When we play, we talk about concepts like "beautiful shape" and the "flow of the stones" on the board. The thinking isn't always so sequential as "if this, then that" like you might find in Chess. The players trade, fight and defend for their standing on the board in a number of ways using both local and global strategizing. When both players cannot find another move, they will both agree to pass, which signals the end of the game. They then count the number of points on the grid that their stones surround; the person with the most points wins. This is the essence of go. This explanation is a little vague, but the rules of the game are incredibly simple. Now, take a moment to reflect on these visual introductions. Don't try and think too much, just absorb the nature of such things. Feel the empty board as a mirror of the cosmos n poo poo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UAD5oRB_qU  A good start is to visit THE INTERACTIVE WAY TO GO, which will guide you through the basics. There are also plenty of books for beginners, so try looking on Amazon or GoGameGuru. Another good way to learn is to get online and ask for a teaching game - there are goons around who are happy to indulge beginners in that, too (see below). There's also this fairly decent video introduction, but it does cover quite a few concepts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gECcsSeRcNo Warming up with AI DON'T WARM UP WITH AI IT SUCKS AND YOU WILL LEARN NOTHING. Get online and play 9x9 games with either beginners or people who will teach you (see below). If you're still scared, play The Interactive Way To Go a few more times.  Fig. 5. Playing go can be a very peaceful, spiritual experience. Respect for your opponent is a must at all times.  There are a number of popular servers: KGS - The most popular English-speaking server. It is notorious for having terrible admins and an client that is never updated, but once you get used to that, it's the best place to find a game. OGS - An up and coming in-browser server that is feature rich, but lacks a playerbase. Keep an eye on this, I hope that one day it replaces KGS. It offers both real-time and correspondence games. IGS - A much older server, I personally don't like it because the old client was terrible, but apparently it's got a new one now. Maybe explore once you've checked out KGS and OGS. GoShrine - A lightweight in-browser server that's great for just getting online and having a game with a friend. Just to re-iterate the point that once you're fairly happy about the rules, you can stop playing bots. They are no substitute for the real thing. You'll want to play actual people who can give you advice and make delightful chat with you in the process. The best way to do this is join your fellow SomethingAwful go players on KGS (Kisedo Go Server) or OGS (Online Go Server). Note that there are other servers, but KGS is generally considered the best for English-speaking players, as well as the client being the most user-friendly, although that is set to change if OGS gets traction over the next few years. How to get online: 1) Visit the KGS website. Here you can launch the KGS client in your web browser, or download it to your computer. 2) Register an account. 3) Log in, choose the following menu option: Rooms -> Room List 4) Under the "Social" tab, find the room "SA" and double click. This is our public room, but it's not where we usually hang out. 5) Ask for permission to join "ITGO", our private room. 6) Once permission has been granted, you can join by going Rooms -> Room List, and double clicking ITGO under the "Social" tab. Don't worry if you don't get an immediate response, someone should notice your request eventually. Try again at another time (evenings is best) if there's still nothing happening, or ask in the Ask/Tell Go thread. There is also an SA channel on OGS, which I am spending a bit more time on, so visit that server too as I generally prefer it to KGS despite it being hard to get a game there. The channel is called SA - you'll know when you see it on the Groups list. There are also real-life Go clubs in a lot of places; most cities will have at least one but again it's dependent on geography. A Google search is usually the best way to find a local club, and most national association websites may also have a club directory. Playing go in real life is a very different experience to playing online and I encourage anyone with an interest in the game to seek out their local club.  Fig. 6. Go clubs are the cool places to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. At Go club you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Go motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.  Player ranks are split into two groups: kyu and dan. Kyu-level players are considered beginners and intermediates, whereas dan-level players are considered masters. The ranks are split up as so: code:When I first started, I consistently struggled to win games or even understand what the hell I was doing. I think on the third day I played, I did something insane like 20 games, of which I won 2. I started at 28 kyu in March 2010. By next March I had a ranking of 8 kyu. That's not even that fast, I have seen people get to 2-3 kyu in one year. My suggestion is just to play, play, play. Some people like to study books and play a few select, thoughtful games; others like to just play lots and lots of games and develop an instinct through losing and winning. Either way, Go accomodates all kinds of approaches, it's just a matter of finding one that suits you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TApyjEGf7E Fig. 7. See ~2:00 to see a typical demonstration on how best to deal with losing at Go. Not so fucken smart are u now John Nash  Books are an excellent way to improve. My reccomendation would be to start with "The Second Book of Go" by Richard Bozulich, which is designed for people who know the rules but still have no idea what to do next. That book will take you quite far if you study all of it, but after that you might want to start dipping into the Elementary Go Series, which should take you all the way to 1k and maybe beyond. Another book you will see mentioned a lot is Kageyama's "Lessons In The Fundamentals of Go" which is a book that can begun to be read at 15k, and one you will find yourself re-reading on your road to 1-dan. Doing problems are another great way to improve your skills, and many players will tell you it's the most effective way. You can find a set of beginner, intermediate and advanced puzzles and problems here, as well as the weekly problems on GoGameGuru. There's also the book set "Graded Go Problems For Beginners" which you should look to buy at some point. Finally, it's important to do problems that are high quality and teach basic concepts well, rather than user submitted problems on sites like GoProblems.com which generally suck as most things not written by professional players are.  Fig. 4. Another typical scene from the end-game of go. Note the opponent trampled underfoot won, but fell victim to the nuclear tesuji.  Batt's Go Livestream - Livestreamed Go commentaries The Ask/Tell Go thread. This is where most Go discussion happens, as this thread is really just a recruitment thread. Get in there and get chatting. /r/baduk, a surprisingly OK reddit Go community. Nick Sibicky's Go lectures, a boatload of lectures from a 5-dan amateur A solid overview on what this game is all about, from Wikipedia. Sensei's Library. The de-facto Go wiki, full of loads of information about getting started and improving your game. KGS, the best English-speaking Go server. KGS Analytics, will give you statistics on your KGS games! Life in 19x19, a popular Go forum, but kind of full of terrible people as well. SmartGo, an excellent app for mobiles.  Fig. 8. Go.... (gently caress yourself??)  A lot of terms for this game are in Japanese and if you don't speak the language it can be hard to remember what they are. Here are some commonly used terms, but note that a quick Google search will give you more in depth results if there's nothing mentioned here: aji - where dead stones come to life to haunt the opponent atari - a situation where one or more stones are a move away from capture fuseki - the opening moves of a game hane - a cut (through your opponents stones to break them up) joseki - a well-known series of moves that benefit both players goban - a board on which go is played komi - points given to white at the end of the game to make up for the fact that black goes first sente - a move that forces your opponent to respond (players who "keep sente", that is, continue to play sente moves, are usually dominating play) gote - a move that does not require your opponent to respond (i.e. they have the chance of playing a sente move) tesuji - local play, usually where stones are fighting to capture each other tenuki - playing elsewhere on the board Final notes Feel free to ask any questions in this thread or the Ask/Tell thread. If any existing Go players have anything they'd like to add or correct in the OP just say so.  
o.m. 94 fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Nov 2, 2013 |
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Oct 26, 2013 15:06
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Okay but where do the pawns and knights and poo poo come into play?
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Oct 26, 2013 15:12
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Deep Winter posted:Okay but where do the pawns and knights and poo poo come into play? There's Knight's moves, and as for pawns, well, that's basically all you're playing with. Lots and lots of expendable lil dudes.
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Oct 26, 2013 15:21
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Smartgo seems to be still IPhone only. For Android I recommend WeGoIgo Lite. It is free and can do everything you would want to do. I mainly use it to study problems.
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Oct 26, 2013 15:28
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Have Monte Carlo methods solved Computer Go, in the sense that now we can just shove computer power at it and expect it to eventually beat top rank human players?
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Oct 26, 2013 16:41
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tractor fanatic posted:Have Monte Carlo methods solved Computer Go, in the sense that now we can just shove computer power at it and expect it to eventually beat top rank human players? Nope, the increase of computing power needs to be at least logrithmic, probably more. This is already a problem where huge amounts of power increases are giving very little improvement. The top researchers generally agree a new method must be found to put Go where Chess is at the moment (ie hundreds of ELO points above the best)
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Oct 26, 2013 16:48
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What is the point of spending time making computers super-good at Go? At best it seems a colossal waste of man-hours and energy and at worst serves only to devalue the game on top of that. I'm not some hyper-defensive Go player or anything, played it like 2-3 times and got schooled. Just curious.
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Oct 26, 2013 16:56
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Computers are notoriously bad at Go, and some people are interested in making them better at it. There's a hope that in the course of learning how to solve Go, we learn techniques to solve real problems. It's also a point of pride for Go players that computers are shittier at it than they are at Chess.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:03
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What? No mention of Hikaru no Go?
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Oct 26, 2013 17:05
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Jeza posted:What is the point of spending time making computers super-good at Go? At best it seems a colossal waste of man-hours and energy and at worst serves only to devalue the game on top of that. What is the point in making computers super-good at anything? Well, there's a million reasons. It's a tough computer science problem which is of great interest to researchers and academics. But we as players also want to see what we can learn from computer Go. Some people might just relish the challenge.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:21
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Good thread Oiseaux, glad to see this out in GBS where it might get some exposure. I should really get back onto KGS  Been lazy since my mac update hosed up the program and I haven't tried to fix it.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:29
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Is Many Faces still the premier computer go? Because I used to be a higher K in The New England go club years ago and could whoop the 6 dan very easily
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Oct 26, 2013 17:41
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Zen and CrazyStone are considered the strongest, IIRC. I play against Fuego now and then which is enough to kick my 4k rear end...
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Oct 26, 2013 17:48
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Anyone here know how the AGAs attempts at making a pro league are going. They think they'll find their Bobby Fisher in 20 years through this, but it seems a little optimistic. Hardly anyone plays go (they should) so I doubt they'll be the critical mass needed to get that kind of player that soon.
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Oct 26, 2013 17:50
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oiseaux morts 1994 posted:What is the point in making computers super-good at anything? Well, there's a million reasons. It's a tough computer science problem which is of great interest to researchers and academics. But we as players also want to see what we can learn from computer Go. Some people might just relish the challenge. I'm surprised to hear your opinion on it is so positive. If I was an avid Go fan I'm pretty sure I'd be dead set against trying to create the perfect, unbeatable Go software. Surely whatever you'll learn from it will just be the literal perfect incarnation of Go play? So just skipping all human innovations between now and whenever and going straight to the logical end-point? That is so depressing. So any random idiot can just download a few mb worth of software and it would be able to outclass the finest Go players in however many thousands of years the game has been around with ease. You sound pretty into the whole atmosphere and culture the game is steeped in, aren't you worried that a fairly sacrosanct part of that is being decompiled and rendered soulless by a bunch of programmers treating it like it was some amorphous Sudoku puzzle that is interesting only until it is solved?
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Oct 26, 2013 18:09
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Isn't it awesome that in chess any random idiot can just download a few mb worth of software and have access to an opponent that can challenge the best human players?
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Oct 26, 2013 18:28
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Chess isn't solved and go has a much higher magnitude move space than chess. I think a powerful go engine would be a fantastic study tool anyway. I think you are overstating the human innovation as well, players from 100s of years ago would still be formidable.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:32
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Jeza posted:I'm surprised to hear your opinion on it is so positive. If I was an avid Go fan I'm pretty sure I'd be dead set against trying to create the perfect, unbeatable Go software. Surely whatever you'll learn from it will just be the literal perfect incarnation of Go play? So just skipping all human innovations between now and whenever and going straight to the logical end-point? If a computer can run some mathematical formulas and come up with a perfect game plan, why are we wasting our time inefficiently finding the same thing? It's a matter of perspective.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:34
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I remember trying to play a long time ago; I knew nothing except the bare basics, and always found a way to lose horrendously. I remember being proud when I realised that, "Oh, wait, all of my territory is basically gone and what I'm doing is futile.".
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Oct 26, 2013 18:36
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Uncle Jam posted:Chess isn't solved and go has a much higher magnitude move space than chess. I think a powerful go engine would be a fantastic study tool anyway. I think you are overstating the human innovation as well, players from 100s of years ago would still be formidable. I agree. Isn't the only "solved" board game loving Checkers? Don't sweat it go-purists. "Ugh why would anyone wanna go to the moon, that'll just destroy the ~magic~"
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Oct 26, 2013 18:38
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AGA is still going strong. I don't like playing over the Internet since go is a social game ( part of the reason why I play cards more than go now, other than 50 kgs messages of "a game???????") so check out a meeting. They're still working on a pro league. Also, about a decade ago there was a goban manufacturer that made a beautiful travel go set that had a board burned into leather that I wanted to pick up but can't find it. Aga's site used to link to them. Anyone know about it? E: I think Kisiedo made it
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Oct 26, 2013 18:45
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Kheldragar posted:I remember trying to play a long time ago; I knew nothing except the bare basics, and always found a way to lose horrendously. I remember being proud when I realised that, "Oh, wait, all of my territory is basically gone and what I'm doing is futile.". There is a proverb: Lose your first 50 games quickly
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Oct 26, 2013 18:46
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I don't think this thread should go in here.
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Oct 26, 2013 18:53
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Would two new players only playing against each other be super ineffective at learning the game?
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Oct 26, 2013 19:12
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KING WOOD posted:Would two new players only playing against each other be super ineffective at learning the game? Learning with a friend would be a fun way to start. It's how I started! Playing online will definately lead to faster improvement, becuase you are playing against people who will attack and respond to your moves in a different ways than your friend will. Try a little of both and do what you find most fun at the time.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:37
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I would also say, play a 9x9 board rather than 19x19, because it's easier to get the hang of things.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:41
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oiseaux morts 1994 posted:I would also say, play a 9x9 board rather than 19x19, because it's easier to get the hang of things. Definately. You can print off this and use it with some stones (or whatever else will do the job) since I don't think there is any reason to buy a 9x9 board.
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Oct 26, 2013 19:50
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Kal posted:I don't think this thread should go in here. Seconded. It's a bit strange that a thread that obviously fits in TG is in GBS and A/T. Jeza posted:That is so depressing. Honestly, I don't think most people care. Just like any game, it's not just about who is the perfect player. I don't think anyone is less interested in chess just because a 3-year old laptop can beat a top pro.
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Oct 26, 2013 20:33
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Vasja posted:Seconded. It's a bit strange that a thread that obviously fits in TG is in GBS and A/T. Just glancing at the first page of threads on TG it looks like every single game being discussed is either related to roleplaying or some kind of modern board game with complicated rules and a ton of (different) pieces. The chess megathread is in the sports forum. I don't have an airtight logical explanation for why the threads should be where they are but it seems that the communities for these 'ancient' board games are sort of their own separate cliques and don't overlap a whole lot with newer games that are played over a tabletop.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:25
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As odd as it seems, GBS Go threads have historically done well.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:36
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Your Dead Gay Son posted:I agree. Isn't the only "solved" board game loving Checkers? Don't sweat it go-purists. No, there are hundreds of solved board games. Take Tic-Tac-Toe for example, it has an extremely small search space. Checkers is probably the most advanced solved game out there. For other games, there's plenty of room between "solved" and "play on even footing with the best human player". Solved means that it's mathematically impossible for the algorithm to lose; it will either win or draw the game every time (for go and chess this may require going first). Strategizing as well (or better) than a human player is something different and we'll probably see that from advanced go AI's sooner than some people think (chess has already reached that point).
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Oct 26, 2013 21:50
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Anyone want to do a few rounds on OGS? My name on there is Gaffe. Never played before. Read the rules and half of the interactive tutorial linked. Also, what's blitz mode when creating a game? I can understand live and long/correspondence.
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Oct 26, 2013 21:57
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I'd like to play a game of Go, but skipping ahead to the Tesuji part. Seriously though I loved playing Go when I was younger even though I was terrible at it.
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Oct 26, 2013 22:16
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the Gaffe posted:Anyone want to do a few rounds on OGS? My name on there is Gaffe. Never played before. Read the rules and half of the interactive tutorial linked. Add me (oiseaux) to friends list and I'll give you some correspondence teaching games if you like
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Oct 26, 2013 22:50
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I was told that the first third of any Go game between equally good players is more or less random and that the real game only emerges once enough pieces have been moved around.
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Oct 27, 2013 05:15
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I've been wanting to get back into this. I'm gonna try some practice problems and maybe play a game tonight. I have this fantasy of becoming a world class Go player and then traveling to Korea and Japan and acting kind of like a pro wrestling heel. It's all worked out in my head. Now I just have to master this stupid game of black and white dots.
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Oct 27, 2013 05:31
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I decided to try playing without reading anything regarding basic strategy. Anything beyond the basic rules, really. ... HOLY poo poo I mean, seriously ... HOLY poo poo. I got my clock cleaned so hard the numbers shifted :/ I apparently have a lot to learn about these little black and white dots.
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Oct 27, 2013 06:57
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Kaptain K posted:I was told that the first third of any Go game between equally good players is more or less random and that the real game only emerges once enough pieces have been moved around. I'm not sure where you heard that, but the first third (the opening) is anything but random. The initial moves describe the sort of playstyle you intend to use against your opponent. You are trying to sort out with our opponent who is getting the territory, and who is getting influence in exchange for example. In fact, Go is a game in which random does not exist.
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Oct 27, 2013 07:09
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Kaptain K posted:I was told that the first third of any Go game between equally good players is more or less random and that the real game only emerges once enough pieces have been moved around. This is so far from being true that I'm struggling to understand how someone could have come to that conclusion.
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Oct 27, 2013 07:11
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Xyven posted:This is so far from being true that I'm struggling to understand how someone could have come to that conclusion. Hence my babble above. e: (Nice OP, Oiseaux) RoboBlaster fucked around with this message at 07:22 on Oct 27, 2013 |
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Oct 27, 2013 07:13
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