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Cantorsdust posted:Finally, why the hell are you trying to defend a referendum that was clearly biased to the point of absurdity? There were no international observers--they were turned away at gunpoint. The only observers there were Russian neo-nazis. There are many reports of Russian citizens voting in the referendum, and the voting boxes themselves were transparent, preventing a proper secret ballot. And to top it all off, the only choices on the referendum were independence or joining Russia! There wasn't even a choice to stay in Ukraine! Stop trying to defend an obvious farce. To be fair, choice (b) was for nominally staying in Ukraine. But I think you're missing the big problem with it, one which is important since it applies to all elections in Russia: It was held without an effective free press, and an opportunity for people to properly weight their options.
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Mar 21, 2014 19:33
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Berke Negri posted:Is there any new developments on how Crimea is going to get utilities and if Ukraine will deliver them? Last I heard the ARC (RofC?) had "a years worth" of supplies which I'm guessing is very optimistic. There was some prep work done for charging the "enemy occupiers" market rates, though it's not clear how they are going to distinguish those from loyal Ukrainians suffering under foreign occupation....
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Mar 21, 2014 21:19
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:I'm seeing reports emerging that the Russians have captured the Ukrainian submarine Zaporozhye. Looking for any links that may exist. I've seen reports of that --- actually of a defection --- from an Odessa news site (a pro maidan one) http://dumskaya.net/news/podvodnaya-lodka-zaporoge-pereshla-na-storonu-ok-033931/ They cite their own sources in the Ukrainian Navy though. I can't really say much about their accuracy, though, except they do seem to be willing to post retractions.
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Mar 21, 2014 21:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:I think you mean ethnic cleasing, but that really doesn't change the fact that this is a Bad Thing. Who said anything about cutting? They are just going to stop subsidising them at like 75% below market rate, while giving some lip service about how they would love to subsidise it for Ukrainian citizens in Crimea but can't because of Russians. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 21, 2014 |
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Mar 21, 2014 22:29
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az posted:
That's easy. They'll claim that since they were based from Crimea they are now properly Russian fleet. Don't ask me how they'd justify Russian navy trapping them in port before the referendum, though. One of the aftermaths of all of this will be the Ukrainian government claiming the value of all of these (and a lot of industry and such) as part of Russia's debt to Ukraine. Edit: that's of course one of the practical problems of how Crimea happened --- there is no sensible agreement on what happens with property. Gas stuff is especially obvious since Ukraine invested billions into development of stuff, and now Russia is just taking it, but of course it goes for military infrastructure, too. Heck, there are still disagreements over some USSR stuff, and that breakup had proper treaties. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Mar 22, 2014 |
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Mar 22, 2014 15:54
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Ardennes posted:
I think the best we may hope for would be Medvedev acting as a slightly gentler version of Putin. As bad as Ukrainian politics are, Russia's are absolutely terrifying, since anyone with any presence seems either a yes-man or just nuts.
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Mar 23, 2014 02:39
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Well, it's likely to get a lot more difficult politically after the presidential elections. Also it's worth mentioning that the acting Ukrainian PM has mentioned in a TV interview that Russia would be targetting Odessa in particular (which would be brutal wrt to the remaining fleet, but is also not the friendliest area for Russia, compared to something like Donetsk, although of course it's no Lviv). The SBU did report arresting four "activists" with AKs there earlier today, and that they were planning on seizing an armory, but obviously claims by these sorts of agencies aren't the most trustworthy source of information.
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Mar 23, 2014 06:15
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Speaking of things like that, a bit of contrast --- and this may be wrong, as I am going by memory --- early on the Crimean authorities made a point of how they'll respect all local languages, listing Russian and Tatar. Putin made a similar statement --- listing Russian, Tatar, and Ukrainian.
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Mar 23, 2014 07:11
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Discendo Vox posted:Right of return is a telling phrase- it gets difficult when the seized land passes between owners multiple times. Additionally, my impression is that the period of exile was long enough that land ownership probably got otherwise complicated. WWII Germany and Poland had tremendous problems repatriating those returning from concentration camps, and that was over a much shorter period- and I assume with much clearer legal documentation. I am not sure if it's a question of disputed ownership; the "pro" arguments seemed to have mostly been focused on urban-planning type stuff --- e.g. squatting where officials don't like them, rather than disputes between private citizens. Of course, this whole discussions makes me view the whole "Crimea was always Russian" nonsense brigade in a far more cynical light than before....
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Mar 23, 2014 13:39
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Deltasquid posted:http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/724971 Crimean officials claim the former, a power company claims the latter.
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Mar 24, 2014 00:06
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Following up on the electricity thing: The Crimean utility reports that the Ukrainian utility states that a couple of their high-voltage lines were down for repair after detecting some trouble. (http://www.unian.net/politics/899711-elektrosnabjenie-kryima-ogranicheno-iz-za-remonta-dvuh-lep-kryimenergo.html)
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Mar 24, 2014 02:06
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Want to see what a $600,000 watch looks like? Unian has some pictures of stuff seized from search of former energy minister's place right here: http://www.unian.net/politics/89985...tml#ad-image-16 (Article in Russian, but pictures!) Edit: actually, it sources a Ukrainian Pravda article, http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/03/24/7020047/ which also has some pictures of the mansion exterior. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Mar 24, 2014 |
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Mar 24, 2014 12:37
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Paladinus posted:It says right in the description that it was leaked by SBU (Ukrainian Security Service) employees because they were really concerned about the possibility of a real nuclear war. Which is a laughable claim given that Ukraine does not have nukes; but I can totally see Russian operatives being unaware of the Budapest accords.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:01
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Per Unian, Ukrainian defense ministry regional spokesman claimed that Russian troops used women and children as human shields during siege of one of the bases. Obviously, no independent confirmation of that, so could be just propaganda.
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Mar 24, 2014 14:35
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CommieGIR posted:This is getting ridiculous. I don't CARE of Russia annexed Crimea or Crimea went independent, seizing all these ships reeks of desperation to disarm Ukraine. If it's desperation it's well-planned desperation, seeing how they trapped them in port before Crimea was even annexed.
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Mar 24, 2014 18:59
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Speaking of news, seems like no-one mentioned that Ukraine has a new acting defense minister? The new one is a Colonel-General of Border Guard, who ... was stationed in Crimea and also got "kidnapped" by the Russians for a bit.
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Mar 25, 2014 13:12
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Phlegmish posted:How is Russia going to spin this? Fascist government orders death of even bigger fascist? Lack of law & order, fascists having fire fights on the streets.
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Mar 25, 2014 13:21
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alex314 posted:Eastern bloc literature: "Monday begins at saturday" was loving amazing, and easily Philip K. Dick level of craft. I wish I was fluent in russian so I could read all those books. Also fluent russian will be useful when the red mist envelops eastern Europe again. A few of the Strugatski books seems available in English for free at the authors' site (so I presume legally): http://rusf.ru/abs/english/e-books.htm
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Mar 25, 2014 15:18
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Per some reports on Unian it seems like the Rada is having quorum trouble now, and hasn't been able to pass much in today's session. (I think someone here predicted this earlier...)
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Mar 25, 2014 17:37
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The past remaining ship under Ukrainian flag in Crimea is reportedly currently under siege (and has been for a while) --- reports of gunfire and explosions, and disabled steering. It has apparently been boarded already...
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Mar 25, 2014 19:32
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Berke Negri posted:What's the RT/Stephen Cohen spin and justifications for what Russia is doing to Ukraine's navy? Because those seem to be plain and simple acts of war. Without going there, I would presume the are liberating the Crimean navy from evil occupiers.
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Mar 25, 2014 19:57
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Odd, pretty sure the ship was named "Cherkasy". As for what wasn't done: well, there wasn't much that could be done militarily, but the government response was pathetic when it came to reassuring the members of the military that their families will be fine: a lot of the are Crimean locals, with homes, spouses, kids, etc.
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Mar 25, 2014 20:42
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A Pale Horse posted:I'm sure there was such an option. Anyway, the source is in Polish so I threw it through google translate. UDAR here means punch in particular (and is a backronym as well) http://www.unian.net/politics/900779-ukraintsyi-rasskazali-za-kogo-budut-golosovat-na-vyiborah-prezidenta-opros.html It does have a few more candidates, as well as separate numbers for peole actually planning to vote. The eternal communist candidate Simnenko is at 3.6% Actually 2nd most popular choice is "against all", at 9.7% Wrt to Poroshenko, Russia has recently seized assets of his company in their territory on a shadey way. Edit: http://dumskaya.net/news/novyj-socopros-poroshenko-po-pregnemu-lidiruet-v-034094/ has a nice summary image. There are a lot of candidates, in part also because Party of Regions' situation is rather complicated right now. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Mar 26, 2014 |
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Mar 26, 2014 17:40
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A Pale Horse posted:What is your opinion of Poroshenko OddObserver? My knowledge of Ukrainian oligarchs is very limited, is he seen as one of the good ones? Why is he apparently so popular? I am too many years removed from living in Ukraine to have one. The comments on dumskaya in favor of him seem to range between him better than the rest of the candidates due to being kinda OK rather than just awful, to people viewing him outright positively as a competent centrist.
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Mar 26, 2014 18:10
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Elotana posted:The primary source for the survey is here: That also has party popularity poll, which probably overstates popularity of Solidarnost' by associating it with Poroshenko explicitly. Anyway, hilariously Timoshenko's party is significantly more popular than its leader (15% vs 8.2%)
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Mar 26, 2014 19:35
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Phlegmish posted:The Rada isn't due to be elected until 2017, it's only the president that will be elected in May. I think the expectation is that the new president will call for early elections. Also, it is 5% threshold, but half is elected by district. Unless they change the rules yet again.
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Mar 26, 2014 20:09
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Rapey Joe Stalin posted:That's why you cuff them to a chair and shoot them in the chest. Well... The interior minister did say earlier today law enforcement is in standoffs in 2 spots with groups "claiming to be Right Sector".
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Mar 26, 2014 22:36
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Since there are non-news, I guess I can post this (from the morning): http://www.unian.net/world/900768-anneksiya-kryima-uvelichila-reyting-putina-na-tret-opros.html: A poll taken on 23rd shows a +20% jump in Putin's reelect from 44% to 64% from the whole Crimea thing.
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Mar 27, 2014 04:22
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Yanukovich expected to give another message from the cave tomorrow...
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Mar 27, 2014 14:28
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So UN General Assembly passed Ukrainian resolution on Crimea. 100 votes for, 58 abstained, and 11 against: Russia, Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Sudan, Syria, Zimbabwe, Venezuela. OddObserver fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Mar 27, 2014 |
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Mar 27, 2014 18:30
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Phlegmish posted:With such noted and widely respected allies as Zimbabwe and Sudan, there's no stopping them.
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Mar 27, 2014 19:11
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Uh-oh. Unian headline: "right sector storming rada" (and they have a video link...)
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Mar 27, 2014 20:01
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Elotana posted:Do you have a source for this other than "Kremlin sources told RIA Novosti," and do you have any names for these "left wing" observers because I've not heard a one. "We sent all parties invitations, they got lost by inefficient Nazi-controlled EU postal service If this is about Crimea observers, I do recall reading (Unian) that OSCE basically said they won't monitor an illegal referendum.
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Mar 28, 2014 02:55
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Tainen posted:I'm not really sure there was anything to report. A few hundred people marched to the Rada, stood around for half an hour. Sang the national anthem then called it a night and went home. Well, the BBC report suggests the "singing" was bad enough to break some windows, but it seems noone was hurt and the whole thing was a lot more low key than earliest reports suggested.
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Mar 28, 2014 05:49
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HUGE PUBES A PLUS posted:The story about Right Sector "storming" the Rada yesterday was either hundreds violently attacked or a few went in, sang their anthem and left. There was some interesting after-talk from that. Right Sector leaders were claiming their peoke were restraining the would-be seigers, while the acting president claimed the more aggressively oriented people were Russian agents...which strikes me as a bit of a deescalation? At any rate it seeks today's protests were uneventful.
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Mar 28, 2014 15:07
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Paladinus posted:
That's not what the story says, though? Someone proposed a bill to fire him, but that doesn't say it passed.
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Mar 28, 2014 16:02
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A Russian journalist posted to his twitter what he says are official talking points for Russian media on Crimea and Ukraine, for use by TV news programs:https://mobile.twitter.com/barabanch/status/449526916782239744?screen_name=barabanch Amongst points on Ukraine: atmosphere of lawness, growing chaos, Nazis in key government posts. They are also asked to encourage people to vacation in Crimea
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Mar 28, 2014 20:15
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Tainen posted:Churkin is speaking at a UN press conference right now and from what he is saying it sound like the next step for Russia is to sow doubt about the legitimacy of the presidential elections next month. He was saying that there will be entire areas of Ukraine that will not be participating in the election and brought up that the turnout could be very low. Well, it's true that the Russian-occupied Crimea will likely not be able to vote.
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Mar 28, 2014 22:29
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az posted:Some news for this morning. Putin initiated a phonecall with Obama last night. This means he called either to complain about the status of sanctions or wants to signal the will for cooperation to avert further measures. az posted:Meanwhile in Ukraine, Tymoshenko announced her plans to run for president. Klitschko responded by renouncing his ambitions for the candidacy and that he will put his support behind Poroshenko in an effort to "strengthen the democratic forces" aswell as blocking Tymoshenko. Klichko is planning on running for mayor of Kyiv instead. Also it seems that he wants a unified parliamentary list, too --- not sure if it means with Solidarnost', since I don't think Poroshenko is officially involved with them, or just some sort of endorsement for UDAR?
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Mar 29, 2014 14:23
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Bro Dad posted:It seems Klitschko is getting better at politics as he can use Poroshenko as a piggy bank to get UDAR into power, which will certainly make the EU happy. Why do you think anyone cares about whom EU supports? I don't think Timoshenko ever had any chance, either, considering she was bad enough as PM that people went to vote for Yanukovich.
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Mar 29, 2014 14:39
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