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I don't know why we should pay them to make content for their game. I wonder how many modders are gonna be turned off by this and just make stuff for TF2 or DOTA2. Maybe they should put out a level editor or something.
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May 14, 2014 18:32
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Yeah, that seems a bit cheeky that they want to charge people to make content for them. The fact that they'll also be wanting a cut of profits from that content when it is sold as well makes me wonder why anybody should really bother, since they're basically getting people to make the game for them and pay for the privilege as well. The main reason previous UT games had such vibrant modding communities was because all of this was free. You could use Unreal Engine to make new levels etc. for free, you didn't have to pay for the privilege. Trying to monetize that is a little obnoxious, I think. The modding community for this series would have never existed if people had to pay for the privilege of supporting Epic's games for them.
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May 14, 2014 19:13
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It's been said that this is a new model. Instead of buying the game post-launch to use Unreal Editor you're paying for a devkit license pre to contribute to the launch effort. I don't see what's wrong with this.
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May 14, 2014 19:16
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Organs posted:Yeah, that seems a bit cheeky that they want to charge people to make content for them. The fact that they'll also be wanting a cut of profits from that content when it is sold as well makes me wonder why anybody should really bother, since they're basically getting people to make the game for them and pay for the privilege as well. Except the game is free this time around, and you don't have to sustain the subscription. If you are not very serious about making levels, you will at best have to pay $20, at worst $40. And it's very unlikely that anybody will buy maps or mutators. They will all be free. What people will pay for will be total conversion mods, like Killing Floor or DayZ type things.
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May 14, 2014 19:25
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let it go dude, hail satan
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I just want the original Manta back. I spent hundreds of hours driving Mantas in Onslaught games under the name TRIBAL_FAG, shooting down raptors from the loving sky, running circles around goliaths, raming hellbenders on sloped survaces, even ruining leviathans with four gunners, making pancakes out of everyone who ditched. God drat please bring back onslaught, I never had as much fun in an online game as that
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May 14, 2014 19:36
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Rambowjo posted:Except the game is free this time around, and you don't have to sustain the subscription. If you are not very serious about making levels, you will at best have to pay $20, at worst $40. At that point you might as well be making your own game with UE4 and not a mod.
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May 14, 2014 20:27
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Someone make Alien Swarm in UE4 so I can buy it now. Thanks. Also, UT assault/onslaught mode.
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May 14, 2014 20:38
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Overbite posted:At that point you might as well be making your own game with UE4 and not a mod. And that's why those 20-40$ give you access to the whole UE4 toolset and source.
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May 14, 2014 21:15
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Overbite posted:At that point you might as well be making your own game with UE4 and not a mod. Absolutely. Epic still gets money though. I suppose UT will in part serve as a prototyping platform, a way to quickly get your game out to a bunch of people so they can try it. Eonwe posted:Someone make Alien Swarm in UE4 so I can buy it now. Thanks. The guys that made Alien Swarm work for Valve now. They even made a game on the Source engine with the same name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_Swarm
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May 14, 2014 21:39
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Eonwe posted:Someone make Alien Swarm in UE4 so I can buy it now. Thanks. This. THIS. THIS!
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May 14, 2014 21:42
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Gonna be very upset if we can't mod in the best UT99 character.  Also there had better be a new Strangelove mod day one.
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May 14, 2014 21:57
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Update from Epic's Twitch channel: The current development flavor of the month is movement mechanics, which are kind of the real meat and potatoes of the game. The developers are actively discussing this with the community, to the point of throwing together quick, public prototypes to demonstrate concepts and let community developers iterate on it. Deathmatch and the weapons system are also in the works, but movement is the big thing they want to hear opinions on as they get closer to a playable alpha. They've split the forums into lots of different categories to make it less clusterfuck-y, if for some reason you want to write endless amounts of words on why you want or don't want double jump to come back. Vehicles will be back at some point, they want to hear thoughts on that stuff and rope the community in on vehicle design, and believe the next Unreal Engine 4 update will make that stuff a bit easier.
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May 15, 2014 19:23
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Just don't make it a simple affair. Movement should be a skill game unto itself ie: DeFrag I guess I could post this there instead of here but ehhh
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May 15, 2014 19:26
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Zigmidge posted:Just don't make it a simple affair. Movement should be a skill game unto itself ie: DeFrag Right now the best way to make your voice heard, is to take the actual source code and iterate on it with your own ideas. Otherwise you'll be drowned out by people who have never played the Unreal games, but they sure as hell know how the next one should be designed from the bottom up.
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May 15, 2014 21:24
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Rambowjo posted:people who have never played the Unreal games, but they sure as hell know how the next one should be designed from the bottom up. Yeah, I know. I, too, had to read people in this thread 
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May 15, 2014 22:37
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Zigmidge posted:Yeah, I know. I, too, had to read people in this thread Hitscan is terrible in arena shooters, hth (They'll never get a consensus on issues like this from the community, I'm genuinely curious what they will get that is actually useful, beyond "DECK16 FACING WORLDS LOWGRAV  ")
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May 15, 2014 23:04
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The hitscan weapons were fine in quake 3 and UT99 and UT2k4 so mayhaps they'll be fine in this too.
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May 15, 2014 23:29
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Overbite posted:I don't know why we should pay them to make content for their game. I wonder how many modders are gonna be turned off by this and just make stuff for TF2 or DOTA2. Same reason people sell content(hats) in dota2 despite a cut going to valve. This system can make everyone involved a ton of money if the game itself is good.
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May 15, 2014 23:39
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Overbite posted:The hitscan weapons were fine in quake 3 and UT99 and UT2k4 so mayhaps they'll be fine in this too. The hitscan weapons in UT2k4 are boring poo poo but the ones in Q3 and UT99 are cool.
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May 15, 2014 23:58
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Zigmidge posted:Yeah, I know. I, too, had to read people in this thread You know hitscan discussion has been a prerequisite for every Unreal Tournament thread since at least 2002. 
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May 16, 2014 00:04
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Here's my thoughts on hitscan in UT games: If you're going to make it hitscan heavy, hire the Ballistic Weapons guys and allow them to make the hitscan weapons. Seriously, they did a perfect job with making hitscan weapons fun and not just "point your crosshair at someone, hit the fire button, and you win!".
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May 16, 2014 00:08
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I think map design is more integral to weapon balance than if a weapon is hitscan or not. Realistically, Epic will probably keep weapons like the minigun hitscan because having too many projectiles can create problems in an online game (imagine every minigun bullet was a projectile and 10 people were using it at the same time). The way you balance weapons like that is via map design. If you look at the average UT2004 level, they're very wide open spaces that favor hitscan weapons over projectile weapons. The solution to weapons like the minigun and shock rifle is to design maps that don't have huge open spaces with long sight lines that allow them to dominate. Besides, the beauty of arena shooters is that because the games revolve around weapon pickups rather than loadouts, you can have weapons that are overpowered and not perfectly balanced (such as the flak cannon at close range, or the redeemer etc.) along with similar powerups (armor, udamage, jump boots) and then design the level around them. If somebody picks up the minigun then they've earned it, because they've beaten/killed everybody else who was running for it and that's their reward, same as anything else in the game.
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May 16, 2014 00:44
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Organs posted:I think map design is more integral to weapon balance than if a weapon is hitscan or not. Realistically, Epic will probably keep weapons like the minigun hitscan because having too many projectiles can create problems in an online game (imagine every minigun bullet was a projectile and 10 people were using it at the same time). To be fair, the stinger's alt fire (minigun from UT3) and the flak cannon's primary spawn a crap ton of projectiles. I don't really think the netcode has a problem handling these types of things. quote:The way you balance weapons like that is via map design. If you look at the average UT2004 level, they're very wide open spaces that favor hitscan weapons over projectile weapons. The solution to weapons like the minigun and shock rifle is to design maps that don't have huge open spaces with long sight lines that allow them to dominate. I don't really think the flak cannon is overpowered, it's just a lot easier to use. Looking back at UT2004, the only really overpowered weapon was the minigun, and even that could be handled fairly easily. The whole point of UT is that every weapon has its own niche. The bio rifle for example easily outclasses the rocket launcher and minigun on many maps.
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May 16, 2014 01:29
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Organs posted:I think map design is more integral to weapon balance than if a weapon is hitscan or not. Realistically, Epic will probably keep weapons like the minigun hitscan because having too many projectiles can create problems in an online game (imagine every minigun bullet was a projectile and 10 people were using it at the same time). Suddenly I am getting flashbacks to people complaining when I used the Hyperblaster in Quake 2 was causing TOO MUCH LAG YOU HACKER (while they used a custom hamster model consisting of an animal the size of a small dog and a pole with a gun on it, that makes the above screenshot example look huge by comparison). Then again, I've had people complain about the same thing because of KNIVES in The Specialists half life mod... But in that case I am pretty sure that was just a universal excuse to kick people who used knives even if you promised to never throw them (which caused ALL KINDS OF LAG YOU JERK), because of the ability to- A: Throw combat knives for large damage against people trying to kill you in HONORABLE CLOSE COMBAT B: instantly pull out a new knife if the  obsessed unarmed and katana wielders knocked it out of your hand and give no fucks in your stabbing spree. I think it was like, a stack of 6 for combat knives and 10 for seal knives?Mmm, tangents. But yeah.
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May 16, 2014 01:39
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I disapprove of not only hitscan, but also projectiles that don't arc. All goop, all day, always. Grenades and flak are also kinda acceptable I guess.
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May 16, 2014 01:45
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Rambowjo posted:I don't really think the flak cannon is overpowered, it's just a lot easier to use. Looking back at UT2004, the only really overpowered weapon was the minigun, and even that could be handled fairly easily. The whole point of UT is that every weapon has its own niche. The bio rifle for example easily outclasses the rocket launcher and minigun on many maps. When I said that I was referring more to specific engagements than anything else. In a flak vs. stinger fight at long range in an open space, the stinger is obviously overpowered. If you flip the situation however and put the same weapons in the hands of players in a very small enclosed space, the opposite is true and the player using the stinger is screwed. That's why I think it all comes down to map design at the end of the day, rather than if something is hitscan or just has really fast projectiles.
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May 16, 2014 01:57
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The only thing that UT3 had going for it was pretty graphics, but honestly I thought UT2004 had better art direction, nicely detailed graphics while retaining a clean appearance. UT3's graphics are great but as someone mentioned earlier, it suffers from the same problem as Gears of War did, too dark and busy. I like all the UT games for different reasons and the only reason I grabbed UT3 because there was a steam sale for it. UT99 is still the best though, especially because it has a  soundtrack.
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May 16, 2014 02:11
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If Age of Wonders 3's OST is any indication, having him redo the soundtrack to UT will be loving epic, because his remixes of the original AoW music are just phenomenal.
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May 16, 2014 02:48
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I think movement was pretty much perfect in UT2k4, and would like to see that return. You had a double jump but you could also kick off walls and poo poo, throw people off. Single jump bunny hopping is boring, divides the playerbase and should stay in the 90s. In UT3 they made the bizarre decision to make jumping really lovely.
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May 16, 2014 04:19
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Enos Shenk posted:A bit dissapointing, but we're already planning how to roll the Open Tournament content into this thing. For a bit of content, here's the map I was working on, a version of DM-Plunge from UT2004. Uh, I think you mean DM-Morpheus from UT'99. And they better bring back the Ripper. 
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May 16, 2014 05:03
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Prav posted:Even the guns. I was actually going to say that a lot of the UT3 guns reminded me of jets or spaceships, and not in a good way. For some reason, the aesthetics made them feel underwhelming to use.
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May 16, 2014 09:19
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Movement is an interesting one. The dodge-jumping in UT2k3/4 added a fair chunk of speed to the plodding walking speed but wasn't too intuitive, with a workable downside that it was very stop-start and left players open to having predictable landing spots. Painkiller's simplified bunnyhop method of hold forward + jump is nice and accessible and it leads to people moving fast easily but it does lead to people jumping all the time. I don't think I'd want movement inaccessible to all but the hardest-core the way Quake 3 and CPMA is, either. Movement should not be a bug you have to study wikis and guides to be able to do.
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May 16, 2014 14:38
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I thought UT2k4's movement was jerky and annoying. Just having to slowly walk everywhere like in 99 is preferable to having to mash +forward and spacebar to stutter across the map at a marginally faster pace.
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May 16, 2014 14:59
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I want to move quickly and fluidly and be able to do fancy maneuvers easily. I hope I'm not alone in this.
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May 16, 2014 15:10
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I hope they remove jumping and running and make it so that you can't even walk off small ledges ala Goldeneye.
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May 16, 2014 15:32
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Bloodmobile posted:I thought UT2k4's movement was jerky and annoying. Just having to slowly walk everywhere like in 99 is preferable to having to mash +forward and spacebar to stutter across the map at a marginally faster pace. I thought it was kinda dumb as well. UT3's movement felt like it was the right compromise between UT99 only allowing you to dodge and UT2k4 giving you all sorts of movement techniques.
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May 16, 2014 15:35
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Yeah, constantly mashing dodge isn't any better than constantly mashing jump to move more quickly UT3's hoverboard was a decent solution for quick outdoor movement The awkward place between 'small map where you probably want to dodge because combat' and 'mid size-ish map where you must dodge to move quickly from place to place' is what they need to solve. It's fun to use acrobatics to traverse a map swiftly and skillfully, as well as dodge an enemy in combat, it's not fun to mindlessly mash jump/dodge because otherwise you move too slow through the map. I think getting base player movement speed to where dodging or jumping isn't the best way to just move from point a to b in a straight line would be preferable.
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May 16, 2014 15:50
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Can't wait to start doing some content for this if I can find free time from work. Unreal Engine 4 is absolutely amazing.
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May 16, 2014 16:01
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We can solve the dodging mechanics by adding in a third-person cover system. And some chainsaw guns!!
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May 16, 2014 16:28
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victrix posted:UT3's hoverboard was a decent solution for quick outdoor movement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuNrjeHJk-w
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May 16, 2014 16:58
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