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Powercrazy posted:Yep. Whenever you try to "score points" for your ideology it gets called out pretty quickly. what would it take for you to not sarcastically label someone misogynistic?
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May 27, 2014 21:29
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Entropic posted:I'm inclined to agree with Laurie Penny who characterizes it as "misogynist extremism". One quote in that piece that I liked: quote:We have allowed ourselves to believe, for a long time, that the misogynist subcultures flourishing on- and offline in the past half-decade, the vengeful sexism seeding in resentment in a time of rage and austerity, is best ignored. We have allowed ourselves to believe that those fetid currents aren’t really real, that they don’t matter, that they have no relation to "real-world" violence. I think that yes, mental illness played a role in this tragedy; I don't think anyone would deny that. But I'm sure it also played a role in McVeigh's bombing, yet that didn't stop the government from taking allied political groups seriously. This is an act of violence waged against a culture, more than a political institution, so I think it's necessary for our culture to be aware of the allied groups that promote his ideology. The concern is that discussion of mental illness in this case often comes down, wrongly of course, to "oh, he was just crazy," shutting down the examination of how our culture promotes misogynistic ideas, and the groups that have radicalized this free-floating misogyny into a cultural/political dogma. Plus, I think it's easier for some people to chalk it up to "mental illness" when they haven't had numerous men saying the same things this guy did directed to them...Penny talks about how she always receives comments like "you should be raped," or "you deserve to be killed," (and just about any woman who is vocal online has experienced this) and this incident has changed how she interprets them. Is everyone who types youtube comments like that mentally ill? Is everyone who thinks they deserve sex from the stupid women who only like assholes mentally ill? If so, what is it about our culture that leaves so many men manifesting their illness in this direction?
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May 27, 2014 21:30
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Lessail posted:what would it take for you to not sarcastically label someone misogynistic? I'm 100% sincere, when I say unequivocally, that Rodger was a misogynist. Now what?
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May 27, 2014 21:32
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i do not think you are at all but cool we can play the game where we don't discuss anything unless we have the exact solution ready
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May 27, 2014 21:32
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Not sure why cultural critiques are really that important here. Weird dudes that women don't want to have sex with are mad the the freedom women enjoy allow them not to have sex with weird dudes. News at 11.
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May 27, 2014 21:34
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Baron FU posted:The video was uploaded right before the killings. The parents alerted the police and drove straight down toward his place of living. They heard about the shooting on the radio on their way there. Ah, ok I was unclear about that. My understanding was that he had contact with police in response to disturbing videos, and I thought that "day of retribution" was among them. I haven't watched any of the other videos so I'm not in a position to judge if the content would have been grounds for commitment or not.
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May 27, 2014 21:34
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Blue Star posted:I don't think mental illness is the issue, and should not be made the issue. Mental illness is stigmatized enough as it is. It would be kind of disheartening if the millions of guys out there who basically, on some level sympathize with Rodger's point of view are able to escape a moment's introspection by placing the focus 100% on mental illness or guns. It doesn't really matter how batty he was, because he found the mensrights pov coherent for the same reasons anyone does. We're not going to know, even from his 140 pages whether he was 51% sane or insane (not least because we don't have useful definitions for either of those), and how separable his ideas are from his illness. There is a serious misunderstanding between the sexes in America, and different groups have been progressing at wildly differing clips.
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May 27, 2014 21:35
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Cerebral Bore posted:Not for lack of trying, though. Or did you miss the part where he didn't get to attack his intended target? Didn't miss that at all. If he had instead wrote his manifesto about Martian infiltration of California should we take that anymore seriously? The guy hated men and women for irrational reasons and than went out and killed a bunch of people. Why the fact he hated women more "fundamentally" than men should vindicate feminism as a righteous cause fighting the many-headed fedora wearing MRA hydra is anyone's guess. If this guy had claimed he was striking a blow against the patriarchy for women everywhere I wouldn't consider that relevant either. He wasn't connected with reality in a serious way. A man channeling anger at rejection in an extremely unhealthy way isn't evidence of anything more than his own mental illness.
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May 27, 2014 21:35
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The problem is with men. There's something really wrong and really sick about men. It's not mental illness. I'm sure there are tons of women who feel lonely, dejected, rejected, ostracized, like failures, while also feeling entitled to success and unfairly thwarted when it doesn't fall into their lap. Yet they don't go on shooting sprees. Why is that?
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May 27, 2014 21:36
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agarjogger posted:It would be kind of disheartening if the millions of guys out there who basically, on some level sympathize with Rodger's point of view are able to escape a moment's introspection by placing the focus 100% on mental illness or guns. No one will do this, unless you want to focus 100% on 'Misogeny'. Blue Star posted:The problem is with men. There's something really wrong and really sick about men. It's not mental illness. I'm sure there are tons of women who feel lonely, dejected, rejected, ostracized, like failures, while also feeling entitled to success and unfairly thwarted when it doesn't fall into their lap. Yet they don't go on shooting sprees. Why is that? Nice.
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May 27, 2014 21:37
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EasternBronze posted:Why the fact he hated women more "fundamentally" than men should vindicate feminism as a righteous cause fighting the many-headed fedora wearing MRA hydra is anyone's guess. sick burn m8
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May 27, 2014 21:38
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Blue Star posted:The problem is with men. There's something really wrong and really sick about men. It's not mental illness. I'm sure there are tons of women who feel lonely, dejected, rejected, ostracized, like failures, while also feeling entitled to success and unfairly thwarted when it doesn't fall into their lap. Yet they don't go on shooting sprees. Why is that? 
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May 27, 2014 21:38
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EasternBronze posted:Didn't miss that at all. If he had instead wrote his manifesto about Martian infiltration of California should we take that anymore seriously? The guy hated men and women for irrational reasons and than went out and killed a bunch of people. Why the fact he hated women more "fundamentally" than men should vindicate feminism as a righteous cause fighting the many-headed fedora wearing MRA hydra is anyone's guess. If this guy had claimed he was striking a blow against the patriarchy for women everywhere I wouldn't consider that relevant either. It's sort of the same question of whether we need to investigate violent video games or music when bad poo poo happens. People who already have an agenda against something typically show up to denounce it when someone who professes that idealism does something wrong. I don't think this makes the MRA folks any more dangerous than they previously were, it just makes their ideology one of a shitload of things that has been used as an excuse to perpetrate violence.
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May 27, 2014 21:39
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Blue Star posted:The problem is with men. There's something really wrong and really sick about men. It's not mental illness. I'm sure there are tons of women who feel lonely, dejected, rejected, ostracized, like failures, while also feeling entitled to success and unfairly thwarted when it doesn't fall into their lap. Yet they don't go on shooting sprees. Why is that? Testosterone, duh.
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May 27, 2014 21:40
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The real question is how does a rich Obviously anti-prostitution laws are really to blame.
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May 27, 2014 21:42
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EasternBronze posted:Didn't miss that at all. If he had instead wrote his manifesto about Martian infiltration of California should we take that anymore seriously? And the UN isn't really planning on working with the Jews to enslave Americans, so we shouldn't have taken militias seriously? Or should we have instead looked at how various combinations of rage and mental illness were being nurtured and guided by sociocultural forces and radical organizations, which is what we did. agarjogger posted:It would be kind of disheartening if the millions of guys out there who basically, on some level sympathize with Rodger's point of view are able to escape a moment's introspection by placing the focus 100% on mental illness or guns. For example, and this is what Penny was talking about : Slobjob Zizek posted:Not sure why cultural critiques are really that important here. Weird dudes that women don't want to have sex with are mad the the freedom women enjoy allow them not to have sex with weird dudes. News at 11. "Oh he's just a 'weird dude', nothing to see here, our culture treats women just fine!"
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May 27, 2014 21:43
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Amergin posted:The real question is how does a rich white 22 year old not at LEAST lose his virginity to a high-end prostitute? Agreed. Weird dudes and long-term screwed now that women have the means to support themselves economically (and not via loving weird dudes). The least we can do is legalize prostitution. Everyone benefits!
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May 27, 2014 21:44
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Sharkie posted:"Oh he's just a 'weird dude', nothing to see here, our culture treats women just fine!" I thought most goons were cultural materialists here? Why harp on "culture" as a abstract thing that can be "changed"?
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May 27, 2014 21:45
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Sharkie posted:
So you want to use Elliot as an example of what "they" actually want to do? All those other misogynists just biding their time until they go out and also....kill more men then women because of their hatred of women?
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May 27, 2014 21:46
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I had a discussion with someone about this the other day, mainly about the manifesto and pictures of him that have been circling around. On the latter, Her point was that they seemed to go out of their way to find flattering photos of the man and the media shouldn't even be giving him a face at all. By putting his photo out there he becomes a martyr or saint to the cause. It's kind of hard to argue against the flattering photos but it does bring up a point on giving them a face to latch onto. I doubt that the media actually showing who did it would really change much, because his actions alone have brought some of the craziest of the crazy MRA supporters out of the woodwork and they would have idolized him even without his smug rear end mug to go off of. On the prior, she believes that the manifesto should not have been distributed to the public in any capacity and should have been destroyed in hopes that no one would find inspiration in it's words. First thing that comes to mind is Mein Kampf to be honest. Hitler's words and insane ramblings on the "Jewish Peril" is still read to this day. Yes, some assholes who idealize Nazis still read it, but it's also a valuable piece of insight into the mind of a madman. In the case of Santa Barbra, by destroying his manifesto all we are left with is a vague notion of evil and we can't see where it originated from. By having his manifesto out, we are allowed to paint a picture of a pathetic "Nice guy" that decided that if he couldn't have women and lesser man could, He would solve that problem. This allows us to see where this mindset is causing problems, correct these for the future, and hope for a better tomorrow. You don't always have to sympathize and/or agree with a narrator, which I think she is worried about. Either way I know that some people would rather this poo poo be completely buried and hope that this schmuck never gets burned from history, but our history good and bad must be built upon. We must learn from tragedies and in this case help show MRA's and "Nice guys" That woman are not some drat objective or thing to win, but they are individuals with choices. They want to date you because you are nice? Great that means they like you. They don't want to despite you being nice? That is their prerogative and you should respect their decision. They owe you nothing for being nice to them. The pessimist in me is saying this will change nothing in the long run, but you can always hope that a few people's eyes have just been opened thanks to this and they will become better people because of it. We can't change the  's of the world overnight, but you never know...
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May 27, 2014 21:47
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Powercrazy posted:So you want to use Elliot as an example of what "they" actually want to do? All those other misogynists just biding their time until they go out and also....kill more men then women because of their hatred of women? 
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May 27, 2014 21:48
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Blue Star posted:The problem is with men. There's something really wrong and really sick about men. It's not mental illness. I'm sure there are tons of women who feel lonely, dejected, rejected, ostracized, like failures, while also feeling entitled to success and unfairly thwarted when it doesn't fall into their lap. Yet they don't go on shooting sprees. Why is that? poo poo like this seems like a total dead-end to me. How do you say men have a problem without saying society at large has a problem? It's like the largest possible subgroup you could pin anything on. Parents have been working for half a century on making gender expectations more realistic and less antisocial. They'll continue, because it's been working. It becomes difficult to tell when things are actually improving, because of the very recent doubling of population. Sharkie posted:"Oh he's just a 'weird dude', nothing to see here, our culture treats women just fine!" It doesn't, but all you can really ask of it is that it be good relative to most other countries, and that it be seeking to improve and equalize. Which I think the US has made a policy of for a while, given the military's push for gender equality.
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May 27, 2014 21:48
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Amergin posted:The real question is how does a rich He considered paying for sex to be beneath him. The GBS thread on him is like 99% white noise (or brown because it's all poo poo posts), but the 1% that isn't has concluded a few things and amongst them are that he felt he was above paying for sex, and that his idea of the woman he was entitled to is a 9/10 blond cheerleader because he was a rich half white guy.
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May 27, 2014 21:50
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EasternBronze posted:Didn't miss that at all. If he had instead wrote his manifesto about Martian infiltration of California should we take that anymore seriously? The guy hated men and women for irrational reasons and than went out and killed a bunch of people. Why the fact he hated women more "fundamentally" than men should vindicate feminism as a righteous cause fighting the many-headed fedora wearing MRA hydra is anyone's guess. If this guy had claimed he was striking a blow against the patriarchy for women everywhere I wouldn't consider that relevant either. Yes, I too think that we shouls dismiss all ideologically motivated killers ans lone crazies, I'm sure sticking our heads in the sand will totes make things better. Powercrazy posted:So you want to use Elliot as an example of what "they" actually want to do? All those other misogynists just biding their time until they go out and also....kill more men then women because of their hatred of women? Again, not for lack of trying. It's funny how you seem to keep ignoring this point.
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May 27, 2014 21:50
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Slobjob Zizek posted:Not sure why cultural critiques are really that important here. I find cultural critiques rather fitting in this case. We can critique the "manly man" culture for perpetuating the notion that you're a loser if you're a virgin past X years of age, and we can critique PUA culture for enforcing the concept of a woman as something a man can "have". Both of those notions had a monumental influence on this kid.
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May 27, 2014 21:51
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Blue Star posted:I don't think mental illness is the issue, and should not be made the issue. Mental illness is stigmatized enough as it is. I agree. The media (in general) always seems to do a horrible job covering anyone with any sort of mental illness, which then gives the impression that mental illness was the defining characteristic of that person or their actions to anyone with no real understanding of the issue (which includes the vast majority of people, I think). This makes things a lot more difficult for people with mental illness, who already have to deal with enough misconceptions as it is. They don't need the added fear that they are somehow more prone to violence or more dangerous (when in fact they are more likely to be victims of violence or abuse) on top of it.
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May 27, 2014 21:51
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I wonder if this board would be so eager to lay bare the thought processes behind this attack if the killer had been Muslim and his manifesto had included some long winded exhortations about honour? Whats the correlation between being an MRA and violence vs. being Muslim and violence? I would argue that neither are relevant because the violence is just a symptom of mental illness and whatever rhetoric this guy uses is just white noise to justify his actions in his own broken mind. He wouldn't be killing people if he was mentally healthy, its as simple as that. Browsing Reddit or reading the Koran doesn't change that fact.
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May 27, 2014 21:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:Again, not for lack of trying. It's funny how you seem to keep ignoring this point. If you read his poo poo, his plans included the killing of his roommates specifically because he thought it might be necessary to keep them from interfering or something. His plan was to shoot up a sorority, and his plan was a failure due to sorority girls not being the complete idiots Rodgers imagined them to be.
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May 27, 2014 21:53
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Cerebral Bore posted:Yes, I too think that we shouls dismiss all ideologically motivated killers ans lone crazies, I'm sure sticking our heads in the sand will totes make things better.
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May 27, 2014 21:55
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natetimm posted:People who already have an agenda against something typically show up to denounce it when someone who professes that idealism does something wrong. What do you think the "agenda against something" is of the people who say "misogyny and radical groups played a part in this, and we should understand that better and work to counter it if possible"? What are they against? Powercrazy posted:So you want to use Elliot as an example of what "they" actually want to do? All those other misogynists just biding their time until they go out and also....kill more men then women because of their hatred of women? Elliot (who lets not forget headed straight for a sorority house), plus the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, plus this guy who shot up a women's gym: quote:On a website registered in his name,[8] Sodini chronicled over a nine-month period his rejections by women and his severe sexual frustration. "Who knows why? I am not ugly or too weird. No sex since July 1990 either (I was 29)," he writes. "Last time I slept all night with a girlfriend it was 1982. Girls and women don't even give me a second look ANYWHERE... In 2008, Sodini posted online videos, in which he discusses his emotions, along with a tour of his home, the latter which was a homework assignment from "a self-help seminar [he] had attended on how to date women". agarjogger posted:It doesn't, but all you can really ask of it is that it be good relative to most other countries, and that it be seeking to improve and equalize. Which I think the US has made a policy of for a while, given the military's push for gender equality. I think part of "seeking to improve and equalize" is examining what persons and forces prevent or fight against that. Sharkie fucked around with this message at 21:59 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 21:55
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Those aren't necessarily exclusive categories. You can be mentally ill and also be a domestic terrorist. poo poo like this doesn't have a single isolated cause. The mental illness makes people vulnerable to the cult indoctrination, etc. This reminds of this Newswipe episode with an expert trying to tell people to not cover these things so horrendously because they lead to immediate copy-cat crimes. But if it bleeds, it leads.
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May 27, 2014 21:55
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Blue Star posted:I don't think mental illness is the issue, and should not be made the issue. Mental illness is stigmatized enough as it is. They are labeling it as mental illness to write off his behavior. It couldn't possibly be because of misogyny and an ingrained culture of male domination over women. It's because he was off his meds or he was insane. By relieving him off responsibility of his actions due to insanity, it allows the mindset to go on because "Not like I'll be shooting someone soon" or " His points stand even if he was a bit loony".
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May 27, 2014 21:56
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The reason Elliot Rodger's hateful motivation matters is because it's the natural next step to the sort of cultural male entitlement that begets the sort of harassment and threats that many (all?) women experience. Linking it to MRAs in particular is too small. Not every person that threatened Anita Sarkeesian or encouraged her to kill herself for having the temerity to criticize video games was an MRA. For some reason people are angry... violently angry... about women and the rights of women. Whether or not you agree that particular examples of misogyny in television or books or video games or whatever are relevant or accurate, you can't deny that we are creating a culture that sees the every-day oppression of women, for being women, as being generally an okay or encouraged thing. When it "gets out of hand" like with Elliot Rodgers it is somehow seen as occurring in a vacuum, or being credited to some other politicized issue of choice such as guns. When I woke up on Saturday morning I was exposed to countless examples of harassment and threats towards women. I don't get how you can see something like this and think there's no connection or it's not worth exploring.
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May 27, 2014 21:56
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Cenodoxus posted:They are absolutely important here. Several years ago a young and desperate teenager immersed himself in a subculture centered around misogynistic ideals and came out a few days ago guns blazing, seeking "justice" for the perceived transgressions of every woman who wouldn't gently caress him for holding the door open. This guy would have still been a loser, though. Unless we could have convinced him that his involuntary celibacy should become voluntary via joining the priesthood or something. Or we could have told him to lower his standards. The REAL issue here is that on an open dating market where many women are fine being single (because they now have financial independence, can mostly always get sex when they need it, etc.), there will be increasingly more guys who are left out. What should we do? I think legalizing prostitution is a first step. It probably won't work though.
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May 27, 2014 21:57
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EasternBronze posted:I wonder if this board would be so eager to lay bare the thought processes behind this attack if the killer had been Muslim and his manifesto had included some long winded exhortations about honour? Whats the correlation between being an MRA and violence vs. being Muslim and violence? I don't think anyone here has a problem laying the deaths of thousands killed in terrorist attacks around the world squarely at the feet of the Wahhabi sect of Islam while knowing that all of Islam is not to blame.
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May 27, 2014 21:58
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If MRA and PUA groups attract hundreds/thousands of men to them on an annual basis, but one man in that group with a history of mental illness goes on a shooting spree, why are we essentially saying that MRA and PUA ideologies assist in creating this violent outcome? I'm not asking as a skirting-around-defending-MRA way. I see some parallels to this discussion and that of videogames influencing angst-filled teens to violence. It's a tragedy but if you look at the vast majority of men who, while probably misogynistic assholes, keep most of their opinions to themselves or the internet (as in, even those who send an "I will rape you" email to a woman online wouldn't say that to her face). I guess my question is if MRA/PUA influence has the possibility of encouraging a violent outcome, why isn't the influence of music or videogames also being criticized for having the possibility of a violent outcome? Because to me it's a case of crazies getting into the wrong crowd and taking it way too far. I mean if MRA/PUA folks were telling this guy to get help, it doesn't seem like the fault is in those groups so much as this kid as a one-off. NOTE: I am not saying misogyny is good or should be ignored. I just think that some people connecting the MRA->killing women dots are digging a bit deep for that conclusion.
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May 27, 2014 21:58
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I'm going to say that going to a barnes and nobels multiple times only to end up crying in the bathroom because random women won't talk to you in said goddamn bookstore is not a sign of a healthy mind.
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May 27, 2014 21:59
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But everyone here and most people everywhere else, are well aware of cultural problems of "masculinity" and "sex" and "drugs" and "rock and roll" and countless other "cultural problems." There is nothing uniquely interesting about Elliot other than he actually killed a bunch of people and society had singled him out as a potential problem but did nothing. That's what's particularly interesting about this case.
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May 27, 2014 22:00
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EasternBronze posted:I wonder if this board would be so eager to lay bare the thought processes behind this attack if the killer had been Muslim and his manifesto had included some long winded exhortations about honour? Whats the correlation between being an MRA and violence vs. being Muslim and violence? Well, I guess that we can just close all departments of criminal psychology already since you've figured it all out. twodot posted:Due to copycats, I think it's very plausible this would actually make things better. Our society is lovely in enough ways that we can use more common/less deadly events as a lens for discussing how lovely it is. Sorry dude, I don't get what you're getting at here. Care to elaborate how exactly it would be better? agarjogger posted:If you read his poo poo, his plans included the killing of his roommates specifically because he thought it might be necessary to keep them from interfering or something. His plan was to shoot up a sorority, and his plan was a failure due to sorority girls not being the complete idiots Rodgers imagined them to be. Well, I'm just wondering how someone can look at a dude writing a long-rear end manifesto about how all women need to die and then target an all-women institution and then conclude that the end result of him killing more men than women because he failed to get to his primary target is somehow relevant.
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May 27, 2014 22:00
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EasternBronze posted:I wonder if this board would be so eager to lay bare the thought processes behind this attack if the killer had been Muslim and his manifesto had included some long winded exhortations about honour? Whats the correlation between being an MRA and violence vs. being Muslim and violence?
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