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baw posted:i am paraphrasing from a line i recently read in jean edward smith's biography of FDR, where he states that there was little resistance and no atrocities during the original manchurian occupation. of course "little resistance" can be a loaded phrase but you can't say that anything they did was worse than what the other countries in the league of nations had been doing for centuries who the gently caress cares if it was as bad as the western colonizers, that doesn't make their treatment of their colonies justifiable in any way. oh there were concentration camps in South Africa why are you complaining about jews being sent to camps in germany 
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Jun 28, 2014 16:59
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StandardVC10 posted:Japan was kind of insane strategically though the invasion of China was to eat them before they could industrialize and push them off the mainland. after failing to control china blocking off the suplly routes of the allies was the only way to hope for a victory after failing at that attacking the allies was the only way to push them off and finaly control china.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:01
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steinrokkan posted:I don't know what you are trying to say, that colonialism was bad, but at the same time that the Japanese deserve admission to the cool club of imperialistic nations as if it were a badge of honor? i am saying that western powers' condemnation caused the japanese to withdraw from the league of nations which was a large part of japan eventually saying "gently caress it" and doing whatever they wanted. you could also argue that it weakened the league of nations substantially because it showed how powerless they were to stop anything that they didn't like, but i don't want to bring that up because you're pretty slow in understanding these concepts and i don't want to overwhelm you baw fucked around with this message at 17:05 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 17:01
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  "My hund's got no nose"
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Jun 28, 2014 17:02
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Mans posted:who the gently caress cares if it was as bad as the western colonizers, that doesn't make their treatment of their colonies justifiable in any way. did i say that their treatment of their colonies was justifiable?
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Jun 28, 2014 17:02
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i mean i didn't but you don't seem to be aware of that
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Jun 28, 2014 17:04
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Ultimately Japan's withdraval from the League was a good thing. Otherwise - and assuming liberal politicians would have gained power - Japan would remain a poisoned dagger in China's back. In fact that was the opinion popular among Chinese elites and wetern analysts - that Japan's open hostility prevented them from "peacefully" strangling China with policies of disintegration, isolation from external capital flows and internal barriers to industrial development. steinrokkan fucked around with this message at 17:14 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 17:11
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 Japanese soldier practices bayonet on a dead Chinese child.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:12
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steinrokkan posted:Ultimately Japan's withdraval from the League was a good thing. Otherwise - and assuming liberal politicians would have gained power - Japan would remain a poisoned dagger in China's back. ah yes, surely
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Jun 28, 2014 17:14
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considering how it's extremely difficult to know whether or not the government would have toppled if the US would accepted japan's colonisation of manchuria (an extremely short-term hypothetical,) speculating about what would have happened a full five years after manchuria had the league of nations accepted japan's colonisation is basically pointless.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:18
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additionally, american trade policies FORCED japan to invade everyone left right and center to get resources all those korean women WILLINGLY worked in army brothels balh blah blah blah you're a loving poo poo idiot
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Jun 28, 2014 17:20
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painting world war 2 as "good guys vs bad guys" is the dumbest goddamn thing. same goes for most wars really
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Jun 28, 2014 17:21
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQl5aYhkF3E
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Jun 28, 2014 17:22
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I agree, the nation that had soldiers lock thousands of people in concrete rooms and then pump in diesel exhaust wasn't really bad
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Jun 28, 2014 17:25
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Corey Plumper posted:I agree, the nation that had soldiers lock thousands of people in concrete rooms and then pump in diesel exhaust wasn't really bad It's the League's fault for not patting them on the back. And would it really hurt them to help? Killing all those people isn't easy. Bunch of selfish bastards, tis League.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:27
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yes, refute an argument that no one was making
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Jun 28, 2014 17:28
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that churchill though, what a character! he had the best quips and FDR saw his dick at least once. certainly showed those germans who was boss
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Jun 28, 2014 17:29
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Maybe if we had tried to appease the Axis so they wouldn't feel so threatened, there would have been no war in that generation?
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Jun 28, 2014 17:30
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who are you talking to
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Jun 28, 2014 17:31
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baw posted:did i say that their treatment of their colonies was justifiable? baw posted:"colonizing" mainland china (where they often treated the locals better and granted more autonomy than than european colonial powers did) Miltank posted:
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Jun 28, 2014 17:31
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the japanese were way better than any european power when they got around to actually conquering shanghai and the coast of china in 37 or w/e to think any hypocritical european monster would condemn this  this is exactly the same as opening up canton for trade by blasting qing forts w/gunboats
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Jun 28, 2014 17:32
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To the guy who claimed that the Western condemnation of the Axis led to the escalation of the 1930s security crisis.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:32
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lmao even nazis were all hosed up about the rape of nanking before it even got properly rolling "They [Japanese soldiers] smash open windows and doors and take whatever they like.... I watched with my own eyes as they looted the café of our German baker Herr Kiessling.... Of the perhaps one thousand disarmed soldiers that we had quartered at the Ministry of Justice, between 400 and 500 were driven from it with their hands tied. We assume they were shot since we later heard several salvos of machine-gun fire. These events have left us frozen with horror."
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Jun 28, 2014 17:34
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this image to me reflects on the harshness with which the league of nations treated Japan.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:34
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This picture owns
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Jun 28, 2014 17:34
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baw posted:painting world war 2 as "good guys vs bad guys" is the dumbest goddamn thing. same goes for most wars really i suppose a better way to put this is that it isn't useful to say that a country took actions "because they were evil." there are always reasons, however idiotic or terrible they are, for these things, and ignoring those reasons and motivations for the simple black and white view is irresponsible
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Jun 28, 2014 17:35
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Mans posted:this image to me reflects on the harshness with which the league of nations treated Japan. this picture illustrates how stifling legitimate japanese geopolitical interests as a regional superpower is terrible and wrong because some dickheads with giant beards sold chinese people a bunch of opium a hundred years ago 
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Jun 28, 2014 17:35
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baw posted:i suppose a better way to put this is that it isn't useful to say that a country took actions "because they were evil." there are always reasons, however idiotic or terrible they are, for these things, and ignoring those reasons and motivations for the simple black and white view is irresponsible I agree, however, this is gbs
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36
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the hereros, the congo free state, rubber plantations... the axis were just too late to the colonialism party and the brutal slaughter of the early years had become unacceptable
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36
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baw posted:i suppose a better way to put this is that it isn't useful to say that a country took actions "because they were evil." there are always reasons, however idiotic or terrible they are, for these things, and ignoring those reasons and motivations for the simple black and white view is irresponsible nobody who actually likes history would say that the japanese invaded china just because they were evil, but they might reasonably assert that the way the conquered big parts of china was, in fact, heck mad evil
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Jun 28, 2014 17:36
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baw posted:true but they had their own rational-seeming motivations and political pressures on the island. japan was kinda pissed at europe because europe called them poo poo heads for "colonizing" mainland china (where they often treated the locals better and granted more autonomy than than european colonial powers did) even though the west had been doing it for years Everything I have read said that the Japanese were monsters to the Chinese. That whole Rape of nanking thing. You're saying they were actually pretty chill? Don't believe you. Also, I love in WWII thread when the Canadians come in and start talking about how much they did in the war and get pissy when people ignore them. (Edit) I see everyone else thinks you're a poo poo head too, I replied to fast.) The Dregs fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 17:39
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Canada had a pretty great take in the war, they had one of the largest navies and their army participated in virtually all vital operations of the war. They then went on to not Be The United States, so they're pretty coool.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:40
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The Europeans (imperialists) tripled Chinese government's revenue by unjustly taking over the trade tariff and salt tax administration. Meanwhile the Japanese helped their Chinese brothers by sponsoring infighting warlords and assassinations of Chinese leaders, and what gratitude do they receive?
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Jun 28, 2014 17:41
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 "Pregnant with her first child, this 19-year-old woman was bayoneted when she sought to resist raping at the hands of a Japanese soldier."  https://www.imgur.com/zXtwmfT.gif check out this example of judicious administrative practices
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Jun 28, 2014 17:41
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i submit that when the nicest thing you can say about a colonizing power is that for the first 50 years or so they only engaged in soft ethnic cleansing, arguing about whether or not this is exceptional behavior by the standards of colonizing powers is kind of belaboring the point
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Jun 28, 2014 17:42
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steinrokkan posted:The Europeans (imperialists) tripled Chinese government's revenue by unjustly taking over the trade tariff and salt tax administration. Literal millions died due toe Western imperialism in China, we probably shouldn't excuse European action just to make fun of baw, lest we become baw himself.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:43
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the europeans let millions of people die through various awful machinations + bombarding them but i can't think of any examples of them doing the sort o fsysttematic atrocity-committing that the japanese did. they were more all about letting people starve horribly or shooting their dumb asses when they tried to punch guys w/guns
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Jun 28, 2014 17:46
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those drat europeans humiliated us for a hundred yeasr!!! *gets beheaded by a foreign dynasty for not having a queue*
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Jun 28, 2014 17:52
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steinrokkan posted:The Europeans (imperialists) tripled Chinese government's revenue by unjustly taking over the trade tariff and salt tax administration. im glad we've outed at least one honest-to-god retard today Fandyien posted:the europeans let millions of people die through various awful machinations + bombarding them but i can't think of any examples of them doing the sort o fsysttematic atrocity-committing that the japanese did. they were more all about letting people starve horribly or shooting their dumb asses when they tried to punch guys w/guns the hereros, the congo free state, the spanish on haiti and in mexico and peru. the actual process of colonization usually involves an orgy of rape and murder in order to force the colonized people into the new political and economic order. it's just that by 1931, people had realized that this was abhorrent and evil.
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Jun 28, 2014 17:52
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Effectronica posted:im glad we've outed at least one honest-to-god retard today i was talking about china specifically yeah i wouldn't deny the broader tendency to commit heinous atrocities as being general part and parcel of imperialism in africa and the americas
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Jun 28, 2014 17:54
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