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computer parts posted:Give Palestinians Israeli citizenship and it will end on its own. I still find it such a tragic irony that a people who founded Israel after being persecuted as a ethnic group would turn around and immediately do the same to the people already living there without a hint of self-awareness. Jewish gently caress You, Got Mine, perhaps? Teriyaki Koinku fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 02:57
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Sergg posted:Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:01
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awesmoe posted:Could you go into a bit more detail about how murdering teenagers is inescapable? Decades of military occupation and oppression tends to lead to criminality.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:03
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ReidRansom posted:Anything's possible. Now you do.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:09
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SedanChair posted:Hopefully more and more Jewish kids will become completely disillusioned with racism and support a one-state solution. Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:12
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And stepping up to the plate, here's Kombo- wait. [Sound of shuffled papers, fights breaking out in background between staffers]
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Jul 1, 2014 03:14
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I still find it such a tragic irony that a people who founded Israel after being persecuted as a ethnic group would turn around and immediately do the same to the people already living there without a hint of self-awareness. It's hardly the first time you see that sort of reversal of behavior, for instance see how members of the French resistance who had been brutally tortured by the Gestapo, became brutal police torturers of Algerians during that people's independence struggle.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:16
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illrepute posted:These attitudes are actually shifting. I don't have any articles on hand, but I remember a few years back there was a flurry of articles about how Western Jewish people were growing disaffected with Israel due to the occupation (at least in part). That's great, but it doesn't affect what Jewish Israelis think, and that is the constituency you need to deal with.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:16
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's great, but it doesn't affect what Jewish Israelis think, and that is the constituency you need to deal with. Correct, however Israel has maintained its population growth with immigration from Jews abroad, which seems to be falling off among Western Jews as they become alienated from the state; further, if Jews abroad stop supporting Israel it raises the possibility of American (America being either the #1 or #2 most populous Jewish country depending on your math) support dropping off, both of which are game-changers.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:20
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TheImmigrant posted:Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics. Jewish 'settlers' (what are they 'settling' pray tell) who live in the homes built on bulldozed Palestinian homes and who chant about how we need to kill them all and get them all out so they can build more settlements absolutely are fanatics. Also proof that these boys were killed by Palestinians?
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Jul 1, 2014 03:20
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TheImmigrant posted:Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics. The first time in I/P history where minors have been detained / killed
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Jul 1, 2014 03:20
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's great, but it doesn't affect what Jewish Israelis think, and that is the constituency you need to deal with. It's actually a pretty major deal, Israel's survival is based on high amounts of Jewish immigration to basically out swarm the Muslims, if more and more western Jews go 'uh no, I want no part of that' the state will be forced to shift as demographics do.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:22
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McDowell posted:The first time in I/P history where minors have been detained / killed I keep reading about how Obama has to invade Palestine now as one of those three was a US citizen. Some people have a lust for vengeance before all the facts are known.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:22
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TheRamblingSoul posted:I still find it such a tragic irony that a people who founded Israel after being persecuted as a ethnic group would turn around and immediately do the same to the people already living there without a hint of self-awareness. I'd say that the fact that Israel is religiously Jewish is completely incidental and has been for decades. It's a nation run by a power hungry corrupt regime using religion as a thin veil of justification for what they do just like any other country in the Middle East. Except that this nation is fully backed by financial and military resources of the United States, really loving up the balance of the region by basically allowing said corrupt regime to do whatever the gently caress they want. Does this make sense? I know I'm simplifying things a massive amount.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:23
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TheImmigrant posted:Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics. Still no evidence it was Palestinians, let alone Hamas.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:24
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Tatum Girlparts posted:It's actually a pretty major deal, Israel's survival is based on high amounts of Jewish immigration to basically out swarm the Muslims, if more and more western Jews go 'uh no, I want no part of that' the state will be forced to shift as demographics do. Jews in Israel don't have sub-replacement birth rates, so their population will still grow even without Western immigration. The Haredi population in particular is exploding. Probably not as fast as the Palestinian population though. New Division fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 03:28
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BouncingBuckyBalls posted:I keep reading about how Obama has to invade Palestine now as one of those three was a US citizen. Some people have a lust for vengeance before all the facts are known. I support the US immediately taking over all occupation duties in Palestinian territory, since it would remove the IDF.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:33
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illrepute posted:Correct, however Israel has maintained its population growth with immigration from Jews abroad, which seems to be falling off among Western Jews as they become alienated from the state; further, if Jews abroad stop supporting Israel it raises the possibility of American (America being either the #1 or #2 most populous Jewish country depending on your math) support dropping off, both of which are game-changers. The people who actually move to Israel and then stay there self-select to be able to deal with the racist bullshit, and are going to a Jewish state anyway. Even if all of them left you have a hard core of a few millions who are not going anywhere without a fight. Shimrra Jamaane posted:I'd say that the fact that Israel is religiously Jewish is completely incidental and has been for decades. It's a nation run by a power hungry corrupt regime using religion as a thin veil of justification for what they do just like any other country in the Middle East. Except that this nation is fully backed by financial and military resources of the United States, really loving up the balance of the region by basically allowing said corrupt regime to do whatever the gently caress they want. Does this make sense? I know I'm simplifying things a massive amount. I'd say that you are misinformed. There is widespread popular support for Jews being in charge of Israel. Even the secular Jewish tradition (of which my parents come from) knew precisely the kind of religion they were protesting against, and have substituted Orthodox Judaism with a kind of Biblical fundamentalism, with nationalism replacing faith. They see themselves justified by the Holocaust and Pogroms rather than divine right, but they will not accept, at this time, being ruled by a non-Jewish majority. I do not know what "regime" you are talking about; there have been changes in government, although mostly it's been Likud and such in power, and they were elected by Israeli citizens, not imposed by anybody. They are right-wing and nationalist because the Israeli public is such. SedanChair posted:Still no evidence it was Palestinians, let alone Hamas. Considering that Hamas has pointedly refused to condemn it, unlike Abbas, I wouldn't rule them out, although I agree there is not enough evidence for that. However, considering that most violence involving Jews in the West Bank is with Palestinians (and occasionally with the military, although the military usually does not fight back in anywhere near the same violence it fights Palestinians), yeah, I'd say other settlers being the culprits is not a likely scenario. ETA: Nintendo Kid posted:I support the US immediately taking over all occupation duties in Palestinian territory, since it would remove the IDF. That's great. Sell that to the Israeli public, or the American one for that matter. It is much likelier to get the Israeli public to push the IDF to remove settlers (as they have done in the Sinai and in the Gaza Strip and Northern "Samaria") than any foreign power.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:34
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The people who actually move to Israel and then stay there self-select to be able to deal with the racist bullshit, and are going to a Jewish state anyway. Even if all of them left you have a hard core of a few millions who are not going anywhere without a fight. Right! But that's still not the same thing as an unassailable majority backed up by immigration and the world superpower. If American support drops off, the whole thing goes South-Africa shaped in short order.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:36
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illrepute posted:Right! But that's still not the same thing as an unassailable majority backed up by immigration and the world superpower. If American support drops off, the whole thing goes South-Africa shaped in short order. No, because there is a Palestinian Authority waiting to take over a state, and there is an international consensus that the Israelis get to be whatever assholes they want if they withdraw to the Green Line. So that is a much likelier choice on their part.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:37
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Likud and such in power, and they were elected by Israeli citizens, not imposed by anybody. They are right-wing and nationalist because the Israeli public is such. This is the same logic for why the Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process 'they elected Hamas' The choice has been made, let them have their war. Whoever comes out on top in Syria will be marching south anyway, so at this point it is inevitable.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:39
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illrepute posted:Right! But that's still not the same thing as an unassailable majority backed up by immigration and the world superpower. If American support drops off, the whole thing goes South-Africa shaped in short order. Eh, I doubt it. I don't think Americans will turn against Israel anytime soon, though I forsee a great deal more skepticism towards Israeli hawkishness. I also don't think the immigration factor is as important as you make it out to be at all.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:40
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The people who actually move to Israel and then stay there self-select to be able to deal with the racist bullshit, and are going to a Jewish state anyway. Even if all of them left you have a hard core of a few millions who are not going anywhere without a fight. The fighting prowess and inclinations of the modern Israeli are greatly exaggerated. Years of soft living and occupation duty mean that they don't know what a real war is. They certainly don't have any of the toughness of the plucky little band of terrorists who founded the country.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:42
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McDowell posted:This is the same logic for why the Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process 'they elected Hamas' Any Syrian thrust towards Israel after their civil war is would be destroyed in short order. The military power of the country is bleeding out by the day. Only group that would be insane enough to try it would be the Islamic State
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Jul 1, 2014 03:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, because there is a Palestinian Authority waiting to take over a state, and there is an international consensus that the Israelis get to be whatever assholes they want if they withdraw to the Green Line. So that is a much likelier choice on their part. That's not true though? About the consensus. That's not an actual thing the international community has expressed. New Division posted:Eh, I doubt it. I don't think Americans will turn against Israel anytime soon, though I forsee a great deal more skepticism towards Israeli hawkishness. I also don't think the immigration factor is as important as you make it out to be at all. What? No, of course not! This is on the timeframe of decades, at best. Right now Israel is basically unstoppable, naturally.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:44
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New Division posted:Any Syrian thrust towards Israel after their civil war is would be destroyed in short order. The military power of the country is bleeding out by the day. If ISIL wins I see them doing it immediately. If Assad wins there would be a regrouping/rebuilding period but the regime isn't going to forget those Israeli air raids.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:46
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McDowell posted:If ISIL wins I see them doing it immediately. If Assad wins there would be a regrouping/rebuilding period but the regime isn't going to forget those Israeli air raids. I don't see any of them being so stupid.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:47
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't see any of them being so stupid. Could be a good way for ISIL to burn off the psychos.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:49
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SedanChair posted:Could be a good way for ISIL to burn off the psychos. ISIL can't afford to fall behind its rivals in its psycho stockpiles.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:50
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http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/bodies-settlers-found-west-bank-2014630233813658785.htmlquote:On Monday night it demolished the homes of Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisha, two Hebron-area residents who the Israeli government has named as suspects. 
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Jul 1, 2014 03:52
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I don't see any of them being so stupid. These aren't rational people, the Arab/Israeli mindset is that war is inevitable ('Any day now!'), and the region will only become more tense as oil wells run dry and the climate becomes more arid.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:53
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SedanChair posted:The fighting prowess and inclinations of the modern Israeli are greatly exaggerated. Years of soft living and occupation duty mean that they don't know what a real war is. They certainly don't have any of the toughness of the plucky little band of terrorists who founded the country. And the average American can best be described as "butterball", but that doesn't mean they can't maintain the most powerful military on the planet. Nobody's throwing an actual army at Israel, especially while they have America's backing, which will probably last for at least the rest of our lives. Israel isn't really changeable by brute military force.
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Jul 1, 2014 03:57
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Dolash posted:And the average American can best be described as "butterball", but that doesn't mean they can't maintain the most powerful military on the planet. Nobody's throwing an actual army at Israel, especially while they have America's backing, which will probably last for at least the rest of our lives. Israel isn't really changeable by brute military force. I wouldn't bet on thirty years. Back in the '80s it seemed like white South Africa was going to be around forever. e: VVV When it comes to demands on the PA, the government never hesitates to say everything at once woke wedding drone fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 04:01
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This whole Israeli furor over Fatah and Hamas forming a united government has struck me as being a bit funny. Before they were united, wasn't one of the common Israeli complaints over why negotiation couldn't proceed was that the Palestinians weren't giving them a united front with which to negotiate? Did I just make that up, or did they really immediately turn around and say any negotiations with a united front were off the second it materialized?ANIME AKBAR posted:http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/bodies-settlers-found-west-bank-2014630233813658785.html Man, I'd really have liked to hear that incontrovertible evidence before the airstrikes and home demolitions went forward.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:02
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McDowell posted:These aren't rational people, the Arab/Israeli mindset is that war is inevitable ('Any day now!'), and the region will only become more tense as oil wells run dry and the climate becomes more arid. No, you're talking about them being straight up suicidal retarded if you think a rag tag band of rebels who can't even take on Assad's forces is gonna instantly turn and go "NOW ISRAEL". Like, that only happens in bad movies, people aren't that stupid even if they hate others.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:02
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SedanChair posted:I wouldn't bet on thirty years. Yeah it seems like Obama and Bibi hate each other and the State Department has all but given up on the peace process and 'two-state solution'. But a new administration could go right back to square one.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:03
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Imagine that, anywhere else. That would be the equivalent of pulling your house down as you were on the way to the police station in the back of a squad car. Who was talking about Israel's legitimacy again?
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Jul 1, 2014 04:05
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cafel posted:This whole Israeli furor over Fatah and Hamas forming a united government has struck me as being a bit funny. Before they were united, wasn't one of the common Israeli complaints over why negotiation couldn't proceed was that the Palestinians weren't giving them a united front with which to negotiate?
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Jul 1, 2014 04:06
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TheImmigrant posted:Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics. Monstrous perpetrators of a brutal attempted hitch-hiking stopped by heroic resistance fighters who defuse the situation by shooting them in the head, news at 11. Just as a general rule, if your response to hearing that three teenagers were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood is "I need to know if they were Jewish or Palestinians before I decide if it was a bad thing" then that is a sign that you are probably a truly terrible person and a shameless bigot.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:06
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McDowell posted:This is the same logic for why the Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process 'they elected Hamas' No. Israelis no longer give a poo poo about the peace process because they don't see any developments in it. The actual alternatives need to be explained to them, and demonstrated to them. So far they are reluctant to go head on against the settlers because they do not see that it will lead anywhere. Disillusioning them from this notion that settlements make them safer will be the first step, although the increasing cost of settlements to the non-settler public is going to help out. Especially if the EU is rigorous in making the settlements untenable for business and banking, and if the US finally stops giving Israel blank diplomatic checks. A nice non-veto for Israel in the UNSC would be a good start. They only need to do this once. McDowell posted:The choice has been made, let them have their war. Whoever comes out on top in Syria will be marching south anyway, so at this point it is inevitable. That being said, the IDF will make mincemeat of ISIS. They may not have a lot of experience fighting people who actually fight back (Lebanon War 2 - Galilean Buggaloo definitely proved that), they have the equipment and the people, and the battlefield is a great place to learn. Plus they will be fighting on home turf and for their homeland. That tends to give you a bit of a boost in morale that you don't get from breaking into houses to abduct children. SedanChair posted:The fighting prowess and inclinations of the modern Israeli are greatly exaggerated. Years of soft living and occupation duty mean that they don't know what a real war is. They certainly don't have any of the toughness of the plucky little band of terrorists who founded the country. As I said above, they will have catching up to do vis-a-vis actual fighting, but with the right equipment, and if they needed to, they will manage. IDF service is not soft living. I was shocked to find that American troops actually trained in barracks. IDF soldiers do their Basic Training in tents in the desert. The real problem is bad logistics and poor preparedness for actual fighting, but just the air assets will be able to make up for it while the ground troops catch up. illrepute posted:That's not true though? About the consensus. That's not an actual thing the international community has expressed.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:07
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