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Xandu posted:Haven't really seen any evidence of them possessing a bomb.
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Jul 10, 2014 05:50
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McDowell posted:Their homes are also rocket bases / command centers More accurately, "their buildings are places where people do things". And Israel don't want them doing things.
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Jul 10, 2014 06:00
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Xandu posted:Haven't really seen any evidence of them possessing a bomb. From the article: "The response included a picture of the bomb, but did not include any answers to the claim that the suspects were beaten." You would not believe the "evidence" if it was shown so what does it matter?
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Jul 10, 2014 06:20
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Well, notably, the picture was not in the article, nor does it appear to be published.
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Jul 10, 2014 06:22
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Was Israel created by the UN or just recognized by it? And did the UN have a right to give Palestine to Jewish refugees or was that under Britains control?
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Jul 10, 2014 06:35
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Was Israel created by the UN or just recognized by it? And did the UN have a right to give Palestine to Jewish refugees or was that under Britains control? The borders of Israel and the intended Palestine were defined in the UN Partition Plan for Palestine, a resolution which was passed and considered legal. At the time it was vehemently opposed by the Arab leadership, which didn't want to accept a Jewish state and argued instead that the principle of self-determination should hold sway. The British mandatory can be thought of as like a guardianship, which it formally ended on 14 May 1948. The Jewish leadership then declared itself a state, as according to plan, and was recognized by the UN and most other countries. With the obvious exception of the Arab neighbors, who immediately invaded. Ironically, the modern Palestinian leadership now regards the previously-rejected UN Partition Plan as being the legal basis for Palestinian sovereignty and legitimacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine
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Jul 10, 2014 06:54
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Heavy neutrino posted:You can't expect people to react rationally to a half-century of oppression and torture under military conquest. When Palestinians commit random acts of violence against Israelis or rail against the state of Israel, it's not with a clear head and a rational political tactic in mind. It's admirable how good a job those Ashkenazi Zionist settlers bear the burden of the weaker Palestinians frailties and inability to reason and use logic.
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Jul 10, 2014 07:14
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Kaal posted:The borders of Israel and the intended Palestine were defined in the UN Partition Plan for Palestine, a resolution which was passed and considered legal. At the time it was vehemently opposed by the Arab leadership, which didn't want to accept a Jewish state and argued instead that the principle of self-determination should hold sway. The British mandatory can be thought of as like a guardianship, which it formally ended on 14 May 1948. The Jewish leadership then declared itself a state, as according to plan, and was recognized by the UN and most other countries. With the obvious exception of the Arab neighbors, who immediately invaded. Ironically, the modern Palestinian leadership now regards the previously-rejected UN Partition Plan as being the legal basis for Palestinian sovereignty and legitimacy. Great info, thank you. Is the UN still able to give away parts of other people's countries to make new countries over the objection of its residents, or has that power lapsed? For example, could they decide to create a new state on the island of Granada populated by Sudanese refugees, even if that meant the island's residents had to leave?
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Jul 10, 2014 07:28
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Xandu posted:Well, notably, the picture was not in the article, nor does it appear to be published. So what? Would you believe the story more if you had seen a picture of a bomb? I'm guessing not, it might be just a picture of a bomb and not have anything to do with the soccer players. I'm guessing you do not possess special forensic knowledge to help you make heads or tails of it. There's probably no sufficient evidence to convince you so it's a little silly to talk about being presented with evidence. As an example: Elysiume posted:Were they both exclusively shot in the feet/legs? Because as far as I know that's far from SOP for any sort of police/military. To disclose, I am an Israeli and member of the IDF, currently in reserve. I could not possibly enumerate how many times during briefing I've heard the step by step procedure for "stopping/arresting a suspicious individual". You must warn the person to stop or you'll shoot three times, charge your weapon, fire a warning shot in the air, fire towards the legs. There are some different permutations with some of the steps removed or added according to the assessments (usually being told to not shoot unless it's absolutely necessary). I've probably heard this procedure once a day every single day that I've been on active/reserve duty. Does it matter though, now that I've told you this? Are you not still more willing to believe that either these guys were randomly shot for the hell of it, or that they were ambushed and intentionally targeted as policy? Ultimately, if they were about to throw a bomb. Isn't that their moral obligation? To resist the occupation? Isn't what's probably a homemade bomb so ineffective—a firecracker, really— as to warrant not to use force against?
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Jul 10, 2014 07:30
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Great info, thank you. Is the UN still able to give away parts of other people's countries to make new countries over the objection of its residents, or has that power lapsed? For example, could they decide to create a new state on the island of Granada populated by Sudanese refugees, even if that meant the island's residents had to leave? It's never really been one of their powers. The UN doesn't have that kind of coercive authority. One must remember that the entirety of Mandatory Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire, placed under British authority after the First World War. It wasn't considered a country and had no independent legal presence. Their partition plan was a non-coercive resolution, intended to be implemented by all parties, under the influence and pressure of the major international powers. Basically it was a blueprint, not an order.
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Jul 10, 2014 07:41
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Obama Africanus posted:It's admirable how good a job those Ashkenazi Zionist settlers bear the burden of the weaker Palestinians frailties and inability to reason and use logic.
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Jul 10, 2014 07:57
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Hellbeard posted:So what? Would you believe the story more if you had seen a picture of a bomb? I'm guessing not, it might be just a picture of a bomb and not have anything to do with the soccer players. I'm guessing you do not possess special forensic knowledge to help you make heads or tails of it. There's probably no sufficient evidence to convince you so it's a little silly to talk about being presented with evidence. Am I more willing to believe that some small number of the armed goons of an belligerent renegade state, drawn from a population all polling data indicates is so shockingly racist it makes the American South look like the BK Kidz Club, might violate ostensible protocol, commit brutality and cover it up, than I am willing to believe that a kid was shot ten times in the foot as some tragic accident? Yes! Thank you for asking. Since I so kindly answered your question maybe you could answer one for me? I wonder if you are so skeptical of claims of brutality once team-spirit loyalty is removed from the mix. You are aware that all military and police anywhere in even the quasi-civilized world do not officially condone open cruelty, right? If a protester with bruises and a rape kit accuses a Russian platoon of gangraping her do you think it is at least equiprobable that she is making it up because the Russian Army has clear rules against rape? If some American cops are caught on tape beating the poo poo out of a black guy do you think it is probably more likely that the tape was taken out of context because reliable officials can confirm that those police went through sensitivity training? Just how deep does this pathology go, exactly? Tezzor fucked around with this message at 08:11 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 08:04
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Tezzor posted:Am I more willing to believe that some small number of the armed goons of an belligerent renegade state, drawn from a population all polling data indicates is so shockingly racist it makes the American South look like the BK Kidz Club, might violate ostensible protocol, commit brutality and cover it up, than I am willing to believe that a kid was shot ten times in the foot as some tragic accident? Yes! Thank you for asking. Sure. A good question, really. Even with my team-spirit like affiliation I am willing to entertain the possibility of wrong doings on part of "our side". What significance does it have?
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Jul 10, 2014 08:17
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Tezzor posted:Am I more willing to believe that some small number of the armed goons of an belligerent renegade state, drawn from a population all polling data indicates is so shockingly racist it makes the American South look like the BK Kidz Club, might violate ostensible protocol, commit brutality and cover it up, than I am willing to believe that a kid was shot ten times in the foot as some tragic accident? Yes! Thank you for asking. Don't forget mauled by dogs and beaten. Very standard protocol for would-be bombers.
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Jul 10, 2014 08:18
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Hellbeard posted:To disclose, I am an Israeli and member of the IDF, currently in reserve. I could not possibly enumerate how many times during briefing I've heard the step by step procedure for "stopping/arresting a suspicious individual". You must warn the person to stop or you'll shoot three times, charge your weapon, fire a warning shot in the air, fire towards the legs. There are some different permutations with some of the steps removed or added according to the assessments (usually being told to not shoot unless it's absolutely necessary). Elysiume fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 08:21
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Hellbeard posted:Sure. A good question, really. Even with my team-spirit like affiliation I am willing to entertain the possibility of wrong doings on part of "our side". OK I am glad that you are willing to entertain that possibility. Similarly, I personally am willing to entertain the possibility that the sun is not in fact a chariot pulled through the sky by two wargoats. Keeping an open mind about such things is important.
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Jul 10, 2014 08:22
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Two teens, who coincidentally were returning from a football match were coincidentally shot in the legs. One of them was shot several times. In a situation where rock-throwing, approaching a boarder fence, looking slightly swarthy, being a journalist or just looking at someone the wrong way can mean a death sentence, you expect us to believe that the teens were throwing bombs before Israeli soldiers, following protocol, put ten bullets in the legs of one of them? Bear in mind that Israeli sharpshooters alone are like stormtroopers - they'll be aiming for legs and hitting children in the eye. Or is it their Palestinian nature that makes you a doubting Thomas?
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Jul 10, 2014 08:26
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Hellbeard posted:What significance does it have? The significance that given IDF's long history of brutality against Palestinians it's more likely that said Palestinian did not do something that merited multiple bullets, dogs being sicced on them and a beating. Is this really so difficult to grasp?
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Jul 10, 2014 08:28
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Any good articles/websites keeping track of civilian death tolls?
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Jul 10, 2014 08:31
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You might have missed this gem of a quote: http://online.wsj.com/articles/civilian-deaths-shine-light-on-israeli-tactic-1404955844 quote:"It's not a matter of operational capability. It's a matter of giving [militants] a price tag for what they do," said Mordechai Kedar, a former Israeli intelligence officer and a researcher at the Begin Sadat Center at Bar Ilan University. "It's an eye for an eye.'" Maybe a bit of an unfortunate analogy.
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Jul 10, 2014 08:41
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:Any good articles/websites keeping track of civilian death tolls? BBC/Al-Jazeera usually. 75 now. We might reach a hundred before the week is over...
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Jul 10, 2014 08:50
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e: Stupid rear end in a top hat ironic joke was here. Removed.
wheez the roux fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 08:54
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wheez the roux posted:Oh, making spending metaphors? Way to show your true colors you megaracist anti-Semite That's not funny.
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Jul 10, 2014 09:04
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I got called an anti-Semite on FB when I brought up the price-tag policy – it's from personal experience, and believe me, I know how racist it is. Which is why it was extra ironic considering my mom's side of the family is (and thus, I too am) Jewish. I still shouldn't have brought my venting about FB idiots into here though, you're right. Sorry.
wheez the roux fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Jul 10, 2014 |
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Jul 10, 2014 09:06
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wheez the roux posted:I got called an anti-Semite on FB when I brought up the price-tag policy – it's from personal experience, and believe me, I know how racist it is. Which is why it was extra ironic considering my mom's side of the family is (and thus, I too am) Jewish. That doesn't mean it's okay to say. I think it'd be prudent to keep the antisemitism, ironic or otherwise, in this thread, to a bare minimum, if at all
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Jul 10, 2014 09:09
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Gantolandon posted:No, you see, their grandparents attacked us 70 years ago, therefore it's our right to hold them in ghettos and deny them clothes and shoes. Also since one of the idiots was pretending that "hasbara" was a thing made up by me a few days back, heres a mini infopost. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Hasbara quote:'Hasbara' refers to the propaganda efforts to improve Israel's image abroad, to justify its actions, and defend it in world opinion. It is a public diplomacy effort undertaken by Israeli government officers, or individuals in target countries (public or private efforts; group or individual efforts). Israel portrays itself as fighting on two fronts: against the Palestinians/Arabs and world opinion. The latter is dealt with hasbara. The premise of hasbara is that Israel's problems are a matter of better propaganda, and not one of an underlying unjust situation. https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Hasbara_%282009_manual%29 quote:Hasbara (2009 manual) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_diplomacy_%28Israel%29 quote:Some hasbara experts study methods used by Palestinian activists and offer advice on how to respond. Describing demonstrators as "youths," for example, creates a different impression from calling them "children." They draw attention to the subtle differences of meaning between words such as demonstration and riot, terror organization and Palestinian political organization. quote:Hasbara Fellowships is an organization that brings students to Israel and trains them to be effective pro-Israel activists on college campuses. The general PR endeavor led to tools like Megaphone (and now the "be scared" iphone app) and tools like the idiot running "Internet Hagganah" quote:The Megaphone desktop tool was a Windows "action alert" tool developed by Give Israel Your United Support (GIYUS) and distributed by World Union of Jewish Students, World Jewish Congress, The Jewish Agency for Israel, World Zionist Organization, StandWithUs, Hasbara fellowships, HonestReporting, and other pro-Israel public relations organizations. The tool was released in July during the 2006 Lebanon War. quote:Internet Haganah is a "global intelligence network dedicated to confronting Internet activities by Islamists and their supporters, enablers and apologists." Here is an active link to the campus propaganda manual "Hasbara Handbook" that was published by the WUJS in Israel i the early 2000s: http://www.sott.net/signs/hasbara.pdf Im sure it will be taken down since SA essentially paints a target on sites/links, but it will pop up again somewhere else. You will see the same methods employed in every I/P thread.   Israeli nationalists are encouraged to practice their rebuttals down to a line-by-line basis. 
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Jul 10, 2014 09:22
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Hong XiuQuan posted:Two teens, who coincidentally were returning from a football match were coincidentally shot in the legs.
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Jul 10, 2014 09:24
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dorkasaurus_rex posted:That doesn't mean it's okay to say. I think it'd be prudent to keep the antisemitism, ironic or otherwise, in this thread, to a bare minimum, if at all *A common internet-debate move.
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Jul 10, 2014 09:33
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Main Paineframe posted:I too eagerly await the collapse of Palestine's democratically elected government, to be replaced by such nice gentle-sounding folks like the Islamic Jihad Movement, who of all the many violent armed groups in Gaza seem to be the most likely to brutally seize power once Hamas is no longer capable of maintaining order. My entire post only contains 10 words and non of them express anything regarding whether I think it would be a positive or negative outcome. Unless you happen to be psychic please reply to what I actually write.
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Jul 10, 2014 09:46
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Hellbeard posted:So what? Would you believe the story more if you had seen a picture of a bomb? I'm guessing not, it might be just a picture of a bomb and not have anything to do with the soccer players. I'm guessing you do not possess special forensic knowledge to help you make heads or tails of it. There's probably no sufficient evidence to convince you so it's a little silly to talk about being presented with evidence. I must say that preemptively accusing someone of ignoring the evidence is a bit odd when there has been no evidence presented at all. Well, except for a picture of a bomb, apparently. So far nobody has explained the causal link between said picture and why a palestinian guy deserved to be shot ten times in the leg and mauled by dogs, but let's not let that stop us. It is a bit more subtle than the rote bullshit we usually get at least, so points for effort. Hellbeard posted:To disclose, I am an Israeli and member of the IDF, currently in reserve. I could not possibly enumerate how many times during briefing I've heard the step by step procedure for "stopping/arresting a suspicious individual". You must warn the person to stop or you'll shoot three times, charge your weapon, fire a warning shot in the air, fire towards the legs. There are some different permutations with some of the steps removed or added according to the assessments (usually being told to not shoot unless it's absolutely necessary). So where does shooting someone in the leg nine times after the first one enter the procedure? I also see that you forgot the part where you're supposed to release the hounds to maul the interlopers, does this come before or after the leg-shooting procedure? Hellbeard posted:Are you not still more willing to believe that either these guys were randomly shot for the hell of it, or that they were ambushed and intentionally targeted as policy? Do tell me more about them savage muslims and their sworn duty to kill you. Also tell me more about how Israeli soldiers would never fire on random palestinians. Finally to tell about how these two statements are in no way contradictory at all.
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Jul 10, 2014 09:51
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On the subject of football/soccer, reports suggesting that six fans watching the World Cup last night had their lives cut short. Not sure if they received phone calls/Tweets warning them about their impending and totally justified deaths but they won't be watching the final.
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Jul 10, 2014 10:22
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Cerebral Bore posted:I must say that preemptively accusing someone of ignoring the evidence is a bit odd when there has been no evidence presented at all. Well, except for a picture of a bomb, apparently. So far nobody has explained the causal link between said picture and why a palestinian guy deserved to be shot ten times in the leg and mauled by dogs, but let's not let that stop us. At least I get points for effort and subtlety! The claim was made that "no evidence" was presented, as if that is a meaningful element. How is that a pre-emptive accusation? Even if evidence is presented, such as a photograph of a bomb that was allegedly the impetus for shooting- does it change your opinion on events? My reply was intended for the out loud musing as if police/military "SOP" never includes shooting towards the lower extremities. The proportionality of it depends how you are predisposed to interpret the facts as they are presented(by both sides).
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Jul 10, 2014 10:30
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Hellbeard posted:At least I get points for effort and subtlety! Well, unfortunatly you lose them again for ducking like half of my questions. Hellbeard posted:The claim was made that "no evidence" was presented, as if that is a meaningful element. How is that a pre-emptive accusation? Even if evidence is presented, such as a photograph of a bomb that was allegedly the impetus for shooting- does it change your opinion on events? How is it not a pre-emptive accusation? You're literally saying that other people don't care about the evidence, which is a direct accusation of intellectual dishonesty. In fact, since no evidence that actually links the palestinian dudes to any crime has been presented, there is no reason to believe that they actually were throwing bombs at the time. A picture of a bomb is not in itself enough to incriminate anyone. Therefore all that people in this thread are doing is not taking the claims of the Israeli Border Police at face value, which is the default position one should take towards completely unproven accusations. This all leads me to wonder why you are so insistent on arguing that evidence won't sway anyone. Could you please explain this? Hellbeard posted:My reply was intended for the out loud musing as if police/military "SOP" never includes shooting towards the lower extremities. The proportionality of it depends how you are predisposed to interpret the facts as they are presented(by both sides). Kindly explain the circumstances that make it proportional to sic the dogs to maul the people you've already shot, please. Also you ducked the main thrust of my argument, so I'll reiterate it for the sake of convenience: Cerebral Bore posted:Do tell me more about them savage muslims and their sworn duty to kill you. Also tell me more about how Israeli soldiers would never fire on random palestinians.
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Jul 10, 2014 10:50
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From USA Today:Hamas boosts rocket range, reaching deeper into Israel posted:The dramatically improved range of Hamas' rocket arsenal is allowing the militant group to reach deeper into Israel and expose a wider swath of the country to risk, Israeli officials and analysts say.
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Jul 10, 2014 11:14
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Cerebral Bore posted:Well, unfortunatly you lose them again for ducking like half of my questions. A photo is a thing. If it's presented as evidence it is not "nothing". Tell me, what evidence does an attempt to throw a bomb generate? What incriminating evidence are obliged the Border Police provide to the media to prove their version of events? Sure, don't take things at face value, you should always treat the media with a critical eye. Part of being critical is recognizing your own bias. What story have you already told yourself before interpreting the facts as presented? It's not intellectually dishonest, it's just human. I don't know what the circumstance were exactly, beyond what is described in the article. I can only imagine the situation which isn't much one way or another. If for example, after being shot a person is still holding a bomb in his hand or it is within reach that seems like a good reason to have a dog immobilise him; maybe even you only suspect or are afraid that person has more weapons. That's conjecture but shooting a person and then sending a dog is not so far beyond the realm of reason as to, prima facie, implicate the border police actions. The "main thrust of your argument" is a straw-man so I didn't feel obliged to engage with it. My intention was not that all muslims want to kill me (though some of them demonstrably do), it was that for some persons here violent actions on part of (abstractly) the Palestinians are completely justified either by virtue of their morality (fighting evil), lack of agency (naturally reacting to oppression) and/or infectivity (the glorified fireworks argument). I'm not arguing against whether the Palestinians are in the right or in the wrong, I'm not sure if I believe that a rational-moral right and wrong exist. I'm trying to illustrate that persons should be aware of their bias and how it affects their attitude towards the issue. For example, you might claim that soccer players were shot maliciously with no evidence to show for why it was done when in fact, evidence was produced- only that it is insufficient to sway your predisposed inclination. I'm mostly trying to understand for myself how you guys reached these positions that seem bizarro-world to me. Maybe as a way to see how my perception of things is distorted by my own bias. Did I say soldiers never shot at random Palestinians? How can I tell you more about something I did not claim? I can only tell from my own experience what I met on the ground but you would not believe my anecdotal "evidence" just the same as I disbelieve much that is claimed in the opposite direction.
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Jul 10, 2014 11:36
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Hellbeard posted:A photo is a thing. If it's presented as evidence it is not "nothing". There was also that great "evidence" the IDF released with the "recorded audio" they "intercepted". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxY7Q7CvQPQ
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Jul 10, 2014 11:44
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Hellbeard posted:The "main thrust of your argument" is a straw-man so I didn't feel obliged to engage with it. My intention was not that all muslims want to kill me (though some of them demonstrably do), it was that for some persons here violent actions on part of (abstractly) the Palestinians are completely justified either by virtue of their morality (fighting evil), lack of agency (naturally reacting to oppression) and/or infectivity (the glorified fireworks argument). Just injecting a point here: No, the Palestinians are not "completely justified" in unprovoked attacks. Don't misrepresent the opinions of (justifiably) angry people ITT to be the opinions of the whole. As for the article in question it is unfortunate that it boils down to the word of the Palestinian teens against the word of the IDF. However I have no trouble, based on prior IDF behavior, with believing that the teens spoke the truth. The IDF could do anything to mischaracterise their actions, or fabricate evidence against those kids. The IDF has tremendous institutional and physical power; the youths lie in a hospital with hosed up legs. Anyway, good luck in the IDF.
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Jul 10, 2014 12:01
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Someone said earlier that they think it's mostly US Jews that are influencing policy that enables the US to protect Israel from national and international ramifications. Is this actually the case? Because it seems to me like if an enormous amount of the military assets handed to Israel might come from US defence companies, surely those companies will use the revenues to fund lobbyists that shape policy so they keep getting more contracts. If this is the case and it's those companies that are influencing the majority of policy then the US might never change their stance on Israel which risks shutting off the money faucet that defence companies enjoy.
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Jul 10, 2014 12:17
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Israelis have the means to kill every last Palestinian, but lack the will. Palestinians have the will to kill every last Israeli, but lack the means. Does this matter at all to the Che Brigade?
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Jul 10, 2014 12:22
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Bedshaped posted:Someone said earlier that they think it's mostly US Jews that are influencing policy that enables the US to protect Israel from national and international ramifications. Jews are only a little more supportive of Israel than the public at large and are only ~5% of the population http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/10/03/8-fascinating-trends-in-how-american-jews-think-about-israel/ . Evangelical support would be more important in most districts for electoral purposes. I think that the huge amount of lobbying and the power of the MIC/AIPAC is a much more likely explanation as to why we give them huge amounts of money to buy poo poo from our defense companies.
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Jul 10, 2014 12:25
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