Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Israel Palestine Megathread: Chickenshitgate

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

There's no way this was authorized by anyone in the HAMAS leadership, it makes absolutely no loving sense. It could have been rogue HAMAS members though.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 01:51

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 22:02

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/06/bodies-settlers-found-west-bank-2014630233813658785.html

quote:

On Monday night it demolished the homes of Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisha, two Hebron-area residents who the Israeli government has named as suspects.

The use of punitive demolitions revived a practice that was almost entirely discontinued in 2005.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 03:52

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

cafel posted:

This whole Israeli furor over Fatah and Hamas forming a united government has struck me as being a bit funny. Before they were united, wasn't one of the common Israeli complaints over why negotiation couldn't proceed was that the Palestinians weren't giving them a united front with which to negotiate?

They never wanted (or claimed to want) a united Palestine to negotiate with. They wanted a "legitimate negotiating partner" or something like that, which basically means that they wouldn't negotiate with anyone unless they would renounce violence as a precondition, and then give into every Israeli demand.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2014 04:06

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

RandomPauI posted:

What happens if Israel breaks the back of Fatah and Hamas? Would anything change?

It's hard to imagine what this would actually entail. HAMAS has persisted using Geurilla tactics even when Gaza was under occupation from Israel and their leadership was in exile. Almost every attempt by Israel to sabotage HAMAS has ended up making them stronger. As for Fatah, there's really not much to break, or any real incentive to break them. Without Fatah you'd almost certainly end up with a more extremist government, which Israel has no interest in.

Basically Israel isn't interested in breaking Fatah of HAMAS because neither are a threat, rather they want to maintain status quo. The unity government does bother them though, so they will try (and possibly succeed) at breaking that.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2014 12:48

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

illrepute posted:

Also, I'd heard differing accounts of what broke the truce. Was constructing the tunnel specifically against the wording of the ceasefire, or was it just assumed to be? Because I can see it going both ways, with the Israelis viewing the tunnel itself as a violation and Hamas viewing the attack on the tunnel as the violation, depending on the wording.

IIRC the truce terms didn't say anything about tunnels, but Israel claimed the tunnel would be used for kidnapping soldiers or other militant operations. I've never seen any evidence to back this up, and it's not like Gaza didn't have enough good reasons to build tunnels for smuggling non-military goods.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2014 05:50

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Kaal posted:

And also because a minor response to a provocation is not really an adequate reason for ending a ceasefire and mortaring civilians.

Again, this is absurd. The ceasefire was over before HAMAS launched those rockets. The ceasefire between Israel and HAMAS was broken when Israel deliberately launched an attack in Gaza that kill six HAMAS members. A ceasefire ends when one side fires at the other. Period.

quote:

The IDF didn't start Cast Lead just because Hamas was digging tunnels under the border. They did it because Hamas had formally ended the ceasefire and was firing 25 rockets and mortars per day at Israeli cities.

No, and it's now well known that Operation Cast Lead was planned in advance, long before the ceasefire was broken.

# ¿ Jul 9, 2014 13:26

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

dorkasaurus_rex posted:

Was it Israel who first launched air strikes, or the Qassam Brigade/Hamas who first launched missiles? In this particular flare up, I mean.

There's been a trickle of rockets from Gaza groups and air strikes from Israel building up all year. There hasn't really been one definitive break in the ceasefire, AFAIK. But from what I've read, HAMAS has only started attacking in the last month or so. All the attacks from before hand that I've read about were attributed to other militant groups.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/01/israeli-raid-injures-gaza-civilians-source-20141164160268962.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/02/israel-attacks-two-sites-gaza-strip-20142117438628461.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2014/03/holding-together-gaza-fragile-ceasefire-201432131220834335.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/03/gaza-rocket-barrage-strikes-southern-israel-201431215281805347.html
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/03/israeli-airstrike-kills-fighters-gaza-2014311102251290169.html

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 06:07

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Just The Facts posted:

I don't want to see Israel destroy Gaza, but Hamas is really making it easy to justify airstrikes which are, by themselves, not the most accurate things on the planet.

Hypothetically if a group of militants launched some missiles towards Tel Aviv and then were incinerated seconds later by an airstrike on the spot, I don't think people would be complaining. That's probably the situation that plays out in the mind of most casual observers after reading the latest tweet about the latest airstrike. But in reality that almost never happens. For understandable reasons, it's not usually possible for Israel to accurately isolate the actual attackers and kill them. In that case the simple answer is that it's better to avoid civilian casualties than to just level a hospital or something to get at a few militants. This should be especially obvious given the low threat level of Qassam rockets in the first place. Sure it sucks to let an attacker get away, but for gently caress's sake Israel needs to get a grip and stop killing so many civilians.

And that doesn't touch on all the incidents which cannot be explained away as "collateral damage." Like when Israel deliberately target key civilian infrastructure points, like the Gaza power plant.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 12:36

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

TheImmigrant posted:

What do you suggest as an appropriate response to rocket attacks on civilians?

Ask a specific question if you want a specific answer.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2014 13:09

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Mr Jaunts posted:

Normally I tend to stay out of these threads, but someone's claiming responsibility for the killings of those three Israeli teenagers, and (surprise!) it's not Hamas: a group allied with the ISIL is saying they did it:

Hard to know for sure if it's legit, seeing as another group also apparently claimed responsibility, but even if it is it's not like it will actually change anything at this point anyway.

They made the claim back in June:
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.598648
http://www.commdiginews.com/world-news/isis-responsible-for-kidnapping-american-israeli-teens-in-west-bank-19548/

However, back then they reportedly only took credit for the kidnapping, not the murders, so I don't find the claim very credible.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2014 14:32

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Volkerball posted:

Hamas has nothing to do with the negotiations on the ceasefire. That's why they've been saying the deal hasn't even been offered to them. All talks have been with Abbas. I have no idea if Fatah could stop rocket attacks even if they wanted to.

Edit: That's the word at least. Cease fire could still meet Hamas' terms.

Where are you getting this? Even AJ's coverage has been really weak lately.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2014 12:26

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Xandu posted:

But I guess to go back to my other question, what's the point. I think it's silly to argue Hamas or Palestinians are in a better position as a result of continued rocket attacks. Israel's not bargaining, they're bombing.

You have to keep in mind that HAMAS got where it was by being the most credible resistance movement in Palestine. Their role in the second intifada contributed greatly to their victory in the 2007 elections. Even if their attacks aren't very effective, many Palestinians seem to (or at least used to) prefer that to to Fatah's corruption and appeasement. If HAMAS were to renounce violence, then they would probably lose popular support.

# ¿ Jul 16, 2014 04:22

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Alastor_the_Stylish posted:

http://cifwatch.com/2014/07/23/hurrah-for-blood-stained-shirts-daily-mail-leads-with-ism-propaganda/

Is this really a thing? Like do people believe that the intonation of a woman's recorded voice is flat because it's all a big set up?

That article is crap, but I have to admit, it does look sort of faked. No visible wounds on him, and that's not what I'd expect a sniper rifle to sound like.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2014 05:23

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Entropia posted:

another thing i'd like to know, is there any reaction from the class of highly-educated university types?

In the summer? Are you making GBS threads me?

I haven't seen the conflict mentioned a single time on my campus.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2014 13:37

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Hong XiuQuan posted:

To stop the intentional derail into junior school justifications of horrific war crimes - does anyone have that Latuff cartoon (probably about ten years old now) of an Israeli soldier skipping towards a Palestinian town that's on fire - everything has a smile on its face from the tank to the bullets to the houses on fire?

Several pages late, but:

# ¿ Aug 7, 2014 05:06

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Bloodnose posted:

His fundamental assertion was that they had an opportunity to enjoy freedom from Israeli occupation and stability and economic development

Even before 2006 Gaza was occupied in the same sense it is now. Even after the settlers left its borders, airspace, and most of its territorial waters were under Israeli control. It's never enjoyed sovereignty.

quote:

and that they cast that away in favor of devoting resources to continued terrorist attacks against Israel.

This might have an ounce of validity, assuming your father is also willing to admit he doesn't believe in democracy. And even so, HAMAS did not win the election because Palestinians just love terrorism. It was because they felt that they were a better alternative to Fatah, which was hugely corrupt and ineffective. At that point it was perfectly clear that the PA's efforts to negotiate peace after swearing off violent resistance had completely failed.

# ¿ Aug 21, 2014 13:02

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Xandu posted:

When was Mashaal last in Gaza?

December 2012, IIRC.

Though that's irrelevant. That was literally his first ever visit to Gaza, and he hadn't even been to any part of palestine for almost 40 years prior. Even so, he's been the undisputed leader of HAMAS for around fifteen years. Physical location doesn't mean much when you're the guy holding the purse strings.

quote:

Edit: we can consider him a non-credible actor, that's fine, I don't know much about him, but what he said doesn't seem to be in dispute.

I don't think people are disputing that it's plausible that the kidnappers/murderers were Qassam Brigade members. What's in dispute is to what extent HAMAS leadership participated, which is of course the real issue given the massive retaliation against the leadership right after the murders. The murders were directly contradictory to HAMAS's strategic goals, so I'd need some extraordinary proof to believe it was endorsed by the leadership.

# ¿ Aug 22, 2014 22:02

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

Hong XiuQuan posted:

Tl;dr - I'm in a bit of a Salaita extra light situation and am thinking of telling prospective employers to get hosed.

Chances are the employers are just super cautious about it turning into a shitstorm that they have to deal with. If they were radical zionists or something then they probably wouldn't even offer you anything.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2014 14:00

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

My Imaginary GF posted:

I didn't see this posted on Aug 5th, and didn't see a link while quickly skimming since.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5651799

NDTV reporters capture video of Hamas assembling and launching a rocket from a dense urban area. Certainly puts into consideration the context surrounding that beach shelling, doesn't it?

Yeah this was posted and discussed way back, and no it does not add any relevant context to the murder of a bunch of kids which occurred weeks beforehand in a different location. Sicko.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2014 03:38

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# ¿ Apr 27, 2024 22:02

ANIME AKBAR: Jan 25, 2007; afu~

SyHopeful posted:

And now they have overwhelming support from Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. It wouldn't cost them anything to simply ask loudly and insistently for elections. If the polls are correct I imagine Fatah would have no choice but to accept due to public pressure. Or maybe I'm naive (seriously).

Fatah's power is based on the favor of Israel and the US, not Palestinians. The only way Fatah will go away is through violent upheaval or internal collapse, neither of which are likely at this point.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2014 04:35

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