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It's been reported that it appears the teens were murdered just a few hours after they were kidnapped. Assuming that's true it's interesting, since it makes the abduction look less like an attempt to grab hostages to trade for Palestinian prisoners and more of an attempt to re-ignite a broader conflict.
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Jul 1, 2014 01:30
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Or, you know, it could have just been a street-level jacking gone horribly wrong. Which is why one of them called the police to say they were being kidnapped.
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Jul 1, 2014 02:46
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TheImmigrant posted:Palestinians murder three teenagers, but Jewish settlers are the fanatics. Monstrous perpetrators of a brutal attempted hitch-hiking stopped by heroic resistance fighters who defuse the situation by shooting them in the head, news at 11. Just as a general rule, if your response to hearing that three teenagers were kidnapped and murdered in cold blood is "I need to know if they were Jewish or Palestinians before I decide if it was a bad thing" then that is a sign that you are probably a truly terrible person and a shameless bigot.
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Jul 1, 2014 04:06
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Ytlaya posted:Pretty sure no one is condoning the killings. It's kind of a fact that Israel's response here is actually a bigger deal than the crime itself though and will kill/ruin the lives of far more people. Israel's crimes generally warrant more of a discussion because there are countless people who actually defend them and their actions result in far more deaths/harm than any crimes committed by Palestinians. While it can seem like a circlejerk on this specific board (since most people here acknowledge how awful Israel is), in the broader picture Israel is often defended and supported. You're right, these murders are not being condoned. They're being excused and rationalized by those who are happy to devalue human life based on ethnic identity and who are too enmeshed in their hatred to see the colossal irony in that.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:06
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CharlestheHammer posted:but enough about Israel. It's deeply ironic but also very sad that you're essentially the mirror image of the Israeli settler who dehumanizes Palestinian children killed by the IDF. It doesn't matter because his cause is in the right, or it's justified by past abuses by the other side, or even discussing it is just a distraction from the real atrocities being committed against his people. I hope you are able to eventually experience the sort of personal moral growth that would allow you to view Israeli Jews as full human beings, just as I hope that settler experiences the same epiphany. I wouldn't bet on either of you, though.
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Jul 1, 2014 05:23
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Heavy neutrino posted:Good custom title/post combos, but your gimmick is starting to wear a bit thin. Custom titles off, but last time I checked it was some scream of rage from an angry gun nut. Does this mean it's been replaced by some frothingly angry rant by an anti-Zionist about how I'm part of the secret ZOG world conspiracy? It's one of those issues that make some people just see red. Ytlaya posted:Pretty sure no one is condoning the killings. Sergg posted:Much as I am loathe to condone the murder of teenagers, this is an inescapable consequence of the social injustice of Apartheid when you try to de-facto annex another nation-state's territory and marginalize its citizens through the slow process of settler encroachment. In actual news, it seems that there has also been an uptick of rocket fire from the Gaza Strip but the articles I've read on it seem to indicate that it's not believed to originate from Hamas but from smaller terrorist groups. What that means about Hamas complicity in these murders, if anything, is debatable.
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Jul 1, 2014 06:39
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GuyinCognito posted:You know if only the hate filled ethnic cleansers loved their children more then stealing land, murdering and raping Palestinians, kidnapping and torturing and killing Palestinian children, then this would never have happened. Israel and the concept of Israel needs to be erased from the pages of history. GuyinCognito posted:My hatred for zionism and the state of Israel could never compare to the hatred that Israelis have towards Palestinians. I would never murder or rape anyone. Not even a hate filled zionist who's only wish in life is to exterminate and expel all non-jews from greater Israel. It's a GuyinCognito post when you see him mention his Solution To The Zionist Problem and are relieved when it's just a bombing campaign and an embargo. dumpieXL posted:Title makes it sound like a mini 9/11. The Israeli public seems to go crazy about kidnappings, even more so than just outright murders. And Palestinians seem to be similarly obsessed with Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. Hamas got a thousand prisoners for a single IDF private, it's not too surprising that they'd try again. It's not huge international news yet, the reason it's a thread is to keep the usual I/P poo poo from polluting the Middle East thread. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Jul 1, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 09:00
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Senjuro posted:Jesus Christ, how is "settler false flag operation" the first possibility that comes to people's minds instead of the infinitely more likely scenario that it was some Palestinians? As if none of them have ever done a million things like this and worse before. Looks like we got another paid disinformation agent of the ZOG*! * Zebra-occupied Government FRINGE posted:Hey! Its early in the thread and we already have a pro-genocide poster. :efficiency: Do you guys still think anybody who disagrees with you is a paid agent of a Soros-led global conspiracy? Or is that  , in which case who's leading the sinister Zionist conspiracy to spy on your thoughts? And what's this 'manual'? Is it like a crowd-sourced wiki-ed version of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Because I don't think the dead tree version actually has an index.Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, a Kibbutz is just a type of small agrarian town, that it is in the West Bank means it's a settlement. Are there still collectivized kibbutz in Israel? Or is 'kibbutz' now just a synonym for a small farming town?
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Jul 2, 2014 04:50
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Rogue0071 posted:As someone who called for the destruction of the Israeli state earlier, I do so in the exact same way that I would support the destruction of the state I live in (the US) and advocate its replacement; I am a revolutionary socialist and I support the overthrow and replacement of capitalist states, with particular urgency for apartheid ones. Unless you're saying I advocate genocide against Americans (including myself) than it seems fairly ridiculous to suggest that I am calling for the genocide of Israelis when I said the Israeli state should be destroyed. I am also particularly disgusted by the Israeli government and state because I come from a Polish Jewish family that fled to escape the Nazis, so it makes me extremely angry when Israel exploits the memories of people like my family to justify apartheid, murder, and ethnic cleansing. "Death! Death to the vile Zionist Entity! Wipe it out!" "What? Oh, no, it's not weird or creepy. I say 'Death to Minnesota!' all the time. You just missed me saying it a minute ago." Elotana posted:I still snicker a little to myself when I remember the IDF's "radio recordings" purportedly from the Mavi Marmara, which featured very non-Turkish accented English voices saying "we're helping Arabs go against the US, don't forget 9/11." Real subtle, guys. Did you hear that the members of a certain chosen people didn't show up to work the day they secretly did 9/11? Real subtle guys  GuyinCognito posted:Dude I had the same positions here in 2008 as I do now. Sometimes places are just as terrible as they sound and the people who live there are the worst. What is it with misogynists/anti-semites/racists/bigots of various stripes that makes them believe if they lay out how they only came to be hateful shitbags over time that will imbue them with some credibility? If you tell us "Well, I used to think the blacks were ok, but they just done convinced me they're subhuman mud peoples rahowa now" we're going to think you're even more terrible than somebody who was raised to hate. Ytlaya posted:Because Israel is the actor that is actively doing the oppressing and maintaining an apartheid state. Palestinians aren't doing a thing that, if they were to stop doing it, would fix the problem. So applying pressure to them (which when you're talking about states is going to always involve some degree of collective punishment) is never going to accomplish anything and doesn't make any sense. Israel, on the other hand, could theoretically stop doing bad things, and international pressure, whether in the form of sanctions, boycotts, or whatever, could also theoretically convince them to stop doing said bad things (though I wouldn't hold my breath). Let me try to get a hard answer from you: You're saying collective punishment is morally and legally acceptable, if it's directed against (what you perceive as) the responsible party? That is what your post says, I just want to make sure it isn' t just a typo and you meant to write 'collective punishment is always a war crime'.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:07
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If sanctions are a war-crime, then are you suggesting that Russia, Iraq, Iran, North Korea, Cuba, etc, are also victims of such? In those cases we are talking about much more severe, state-originated sanctions, with rigorous, stifling enforcement, which BDS (which I do not support for separate reasons) will probably never reach on its own. Are there other tools of mild but explicit international opprobrium that I am not familiar with? BDS isn't collective punishment, it isn't remotely close to, say, Israel's restrictions on imports into the Gaza Strip. But saying BDS isn't collective punishment is a different rationale than saying collective punishment is acceptable as long as it's only used against the Bad Guys.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It would be if it were orders of magnitude more successful than it is right now. That it is so weak speaks to the lack of influence of the movement, not to the nature of that towards which they work. Collective punishment isn't "Let's hit some military targets, which may result in collateral damage to the civilian population", it's "go shoot every third person in that town". It's the intentional infliction of punishment on non-combatants who are citizens or inhabitants of an area, not just unintentional harm inflicted on them. cafel posted:Man, that is some ugly poo poo. I honestly don't know how I feel about the issues surrounding the origins of Israel, but I do know that it takes some balls for that Israeli politician to suggest that deporting refugees back to their 'homes' is the natural course any civilized country would take given the whole history of Israel and the Jewish people in general. When will these filthy Zionists join the civilized world and realize that no state except their horrible colonialist illegitimate one would call for the deportation of refugees. Xandu posted:Under the Geneva Convention, yes, but in a broader sense of the phrase it's punishing people for actions they are not directly responsible for and sanctions clearly qualify. Broad sanctions are a terrible idea and the whole BDS movement is shot through with nutcases and anti-semites but it's hard to stretch the semantics of the phrase collective punishment to cover refusing to buy SodaStreams. I didn't blow up the WTC(which is what I would say if I were a secret pod person reptiloid hazbara clone trooper) but I'm not the victim of collective punishment by the US government when I have to take off my shoes to go through airport security and throw away a perfectly good bottle of shampoo. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 07:44 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 07:35
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Does an electorate in a democratic country bear no responsibility for the policies it chooses? Netanyahu is only around as long as the majority of Israelis want him to be. Gonna love to see how you avoid tying yourself in knots over how popular Palestinian support for Hamas is different in this regard. Do inhabitants of the Gaza Strip not bear responsibility for the policies of Hamas, while Israeli citizens bear responsibility for the policies of Likud? GuyinCognito posted:One day Israel will be smashed and it's people scattered back to Europe and the USA. Don't you mean back to the true home of the Jews, the sunken city of R'yleh? GuyinCognito posted:Theres this thing that we did called world war 2 and after the war we made laws to prevent any FUTURE poo poo like that happening. Anyways, why do Palestinians have to assimilate into other nations society while its a big taboo to do such a thing for jews? Why don't Jews assimilate into European society (their native land) instead of bringing chunks of western society into the MIDDLE EAST? Seriously, GiC - the Jews did not put those bugs under your skin. In fact, I'm pretty sure they're not really there at all, so please put down the kitchen knife and hopefully also the keyboard. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 08:43 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 08:40
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Randler posted:Then that makes it pretty disingenuous of you to use it as proof of Israel being "a gross caricature of evil". When you get this deep into a conspiracy theory, the lack of evidence becomes in itself a kind of evidence. No "evidence" those inhuman Zionist monsters plan to indiscriminately murder millions? That just proves the inhuman Zionist monsters are sneaky liars as well as genocidal killers, because they won't tell us their plans. Zero evidence the killing of the three teenagers was a Mossad plot? Only the Zionists could conceal their perfidy so perfectly, this proves they must have done it. GuyinCognito posted:Yes a lot of people hate Israelis who are committing genocide against them. Last time some filthy white colonialist where put down, it turned out to be two native kids forced to live in misery. Actual white supremacists seem to have views on Israel that are strikingly similar to your own. Are you sure you're not a parody account just cut&pasting from Stormfront?
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Jul 2, 2014 18:46
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Aurubin posted:I've always been curious why, in relative terms, Israel/Palestine rated so highly on the scale of moral atrocities. Without rancor, I'd probably say that it's because it's white people oppressing a minority. Cause people sure as poo poo don't care about a place like Eritrea. Because J-E-W-S. Not all of it, and not for everybody, and it obviously plays a role on both the 'pro' and 'con' sides. Particularly on the extremes, whether in fundie eschatological and 'Greater Israel' fantasies, or in Hamas-style anti-semitism. But it's self-evidently ludicrous to suggest that Israel's status as a Jewish-majority state doesn't play a big part, rather like listening to Tea Partiers swear up and down their opposition to immigration and to social welfare programs are completely untainted by any sort of racial resentment.
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Jul 5, 2014 01:18
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Ytlaya posted:I'm pretty sure a large number of people who post in these threads are either Jewish (like myself*), Israeli, or Jewish and Israeli. That may be true but I've always found it vaguely weird, although I'm none of those things so perhaps I don't have the same perspective but it's almost like some Jewish people feel a need to prove to everybody they're one of the "good ones". quote:The fact that people view Israel/Israelis as being "white" is probably an important factor with many people, even if they don't realize it. There are a number of other reasons, such as Israel being viewed by many (and seemingly viewing themselves) as a modern democracy and receiving a lot of US aid; the comparison with interest in apartheid South Africa is a pretty good one. So do people view Tibetans as white? Does China describe itself as a modern democracy? Did the Sudan receive a lot of US aid? Certain humanitarian catastrophes or long-running conflicts receive a disproportionate amount of attention from the international community, but there's still nothing quite like the extent to which a significant portion of the left has fixated on the I/P conflict, particularly the I part, for decades.
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Jul 5, 2014 05:31
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Rogue0071 posted:It's a little more than vaguely weird for you to implicitly play into the stereotype that non- and anti-Zionist Jews are self hating, traitors, or sell outs. There are plenty of non- and anti-Zionist Jews and none of them are "traitors", perhaps the most eloquent anti-Zionist I've read was Tony Judt(who was unfairly tarred as some sort of "self-hating" Jew). The idea that Jews owe some sort of special loyalty to the state of Israel is a loathsome idea, just as the idea that Jews have some special sort of moral responsibility to speak out against Israel's injustices is. And yet these threads always have a few posters pointing out that they're Jewish and wailing about how this makes them feel the horrible tragedy of the Zionist entity's fascist apartheid all the more deeply. I happen to think that's weird for the same reason I think the irrational defense of Israel by otherwise left-leaning Jewish westerners is weird even if it just takes the other side of the argument.
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Jul 5, 2014 07:47
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Ytlaya posted:The gently caress? I (and I'm sure others) often only mention it in response to someone claiming that anti-Israel sentiment stems from anti-semitism. Even to the questionable degree that holds true, that "reasoning" has never made any sense to me. It's one half-step removed from "I can't be racist, I have a black friend!" or "Saying women must be subservient to men isn't misogynist when it's the CWA saying it"
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Jul 5, 2014 22:35
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Gantolandon posted:Certainly when an oppressed and marginalized group of people stops resisting, the world will surely realize the righteousness of their cause and intervene on their behalf. This worked so well in the past. Indeed. We all remember the iconic photo of Gandhi wearing his homespun suicide vest. Or the Montgomery bus martyrdom campaign, which of course began with Rosa Parks blowing herself up at the back of a bus. Truly inspirational stuff.
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Jul 9, 2014 07:37
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Elysiume posted:It's a lot easier to ignore people criticizing a regime you support when you pretend they're all just antisemitic. The ReV VAdAUL posted:Isn't the anti-Zionist contention that Israel is just another European colony and nothing really at all to do with Judaism anyway? Extreme anti-Zionists, like other bigots, tend to be able to hold multiple contradictory slurs in their heads at once. Israel is both a European colony created solely to oppress the real natives and thus a Western puppet, and it's also a rogue state exerting a sinister control over Europe and America. When you get out to the real fringes you start to hear conspiracy theory stuff about contemporary Jews not being "real" Jews, while that one tends to come more from the neo-Nazi anti-Zionist types you'll occasionally find somebody on the opposite end talking about the same sort of ideas. BBJoey posted:If they were to all kill themselves so that Israel doesn't have to bother with any more ethnic cleansing, that'd be really conducive to further peace talks. While I am aware that every single Palestinian killed under any circumstances by Israelis is a blameless martyr whose killing was a crime against humanity, just as the termination of every Jewish Israeli colonial fascist monster is a perfectly justified act of revolt against tyranny and genocide, are there any impartial estimates as to what fraction of the Palestinian casualties were non-combatants? I shouldn't have to point this out, but the insinuation that 0% of them were is about as delusional as the suggestion that 100% deserved to die. ReV VAdAUL posted:So that's why Zionists itt accuse anyone critical of Israel of being Che worshipping communists who are also Jihadis as well as naive do gooder liberals who are simultaneously vehemently anti-Semitic! I know pointing this out again won't make a difference in the face of irrational hatred, but here goes: I think Israel is largely at fault for the existence of the I/P conflict, I think the Israeli government is the biggest obstacle to peace, I think that the settlements and the occupation are illegal, I think that the IDF response to the killings has been disproportionate and has resulted in the needless deaths of innocent Palestinians. But I don't think the streets of the Zionist entity should run red with blood as it is wiped from the pages of existence, so apparently I'm not criticizing Israel. If you refuse to acknowledge that the conflict isn't perfectly black and white, I suppose I can understand why you would come to think that. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 12, 2014 01:19
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Popular Thug Drink posted:As long as we can all agree that the streets of the Zionist entity should run red with blood as it is wiped from the pages of existence. It's clear from the context that when I said "run red with blood" I meant "work towards peaceful, inclusive political solutions fully incorporating all stakeholders", how dare you accuse me of condoning violence against the apartheid monsters of Israel? Although such violence is perfectly acceptable, understandable, allowable, inevitable, justified, warranted, and let's be honest at least kind of heroic. But I am not condoning. BBJoey posted:It is much more efficient to kill the children before they have the chance to grow up to be terrorists. Israel is merely doing the best they can with their limited resources. Is the frenzied shitposting a way of saying you don't have an answer, or you don't want to give it? Obviously, a family killed when their house is hit by a missile can't be justified in any way. But do you have any actual response to the question of whether Palestinian combatants(like Hamas fighters, say) are legitimate targets? With the usual cries of how the disproportionate death toll proves Israeli evil and malice, isn't the question of how many killed on either side are combatants an important one?
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Jul 12, 2014 01:56
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Petey posted:Whether or not the fear of Hamas' rockets is real to Israelis, that fear can seem real to American sympathizers. It's very legible. And you have to account for that - if persuasion is your goal, which it may not be. Whether or not the fear of the rockets is real to Israelis? If it's not a real fear to Israelis, why would Israelis be saying they fear for their lives and the lives of their families? Their fear may not warrant the scale of the military response to the rockets, but that's a very different thing from suggesting it's insincere.
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Jul 19, 2014 05:47
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SedanChair posted:
I really don't know quite how to respond to someone who expresses a belief that Israelis are essentially monsters incapable of human emotion. Jewish mothers in Israel love their children as much as Arab mothers in Palestine, Sedanchair.
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Jul 19, 2014 05:54
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at people in the thread discovering Brother Nathanael. He really should have a thread all to himself.
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Only one of those groups of mothers are watching their children die. It has been suggested that Jewish Israelis do not have a sincere concern for their children's lives, but fake it because they are "beasts", "killers", and "disingenuous liars", faking that concern and fear as a pretext to slaughter Palestinians. Is it really so difficult to reject that sort of ugly dehumanizing of your enemy? To insist that a Jewish life is no more or less valuable than an Arab life? SedanChair posted:Anyone who expresses beliefs that a whole people should be exterminated while living in comfort and security is a beast, hth When a Palestinian man who watched his three children be killed by the IDF is capable of calling for "both sides is to embrace the dignity, grace and strength of the other" why do you feel such an insistent need to dehumanize Israelis? Especially because, unless I'm mistaken, you're not ducking explosions yourself but "living in comfort and security" far from the range of either IDF missiles or Hamas rockets.
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Jul 19, 2014 06:19
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SedanChair posted:I'm only calling inhuman the people who express inhuman opinions. Let's refresh our memories, shall we? I posted: The Insect Court posted:If it's not a real fear to Israelis, why would Israelis be saying they fear for their lives and the lives of their families? You responded: SedanChair posted:Because they are disingenuous liars and killers poisoned by sociopathy on a national level. Is it still your opinion that Israelis are faking their concern for their children's lives because they are "disingenuous liars and killers poisoned by sociopathy", or has it changed in the past half hour? Do you think the single opinion that I attributed to Israeli parents, namely concern for their children's well-being, is an "inhuman opinion" SedanChair posted:There are many, many Israelis who have humane, correct opinions. Is that the case, or is it that Israelis are "poisoned by sociopathy on a national level"? I just fail to understand how "many, many Israelis" can have "human, correct opinions" if Israel is poisoned on the national level.
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Jul 19, 2014 06:56
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TheRamblingSoul posted:Rebuttal: I think we both realize that I could just as easily post pictures of Palestinians celebrating violence against Israelis, but I'm not going to engage in that sort of ugliness. That doesn't mean I think it's not an unsettling sight watching Palestinians celebrating Israeli suffering, or Israelis cheer Palestinian suffering. But it's far uglier and deeply misleading when right-wing extremists circulate photos of a few Palestinians celebrating acts of terrorism and use it to tar Palestinian people as a bloodthirsty mob, it's just as wrong and misleading when it's done to Israelis. And it's not an "academic" argument. It's a call for basic empathy and human decency for both Palestinians and Israelis. I don't find that objectionable. SedanChair posted:Why are they so concerned for their kids? Are they dying? Three teenagers got kidnapped and shot by some random criminals, big loving deal. In the United States that would hold in the news cycle for about 3 days and never get above the fold. Any parent who got on TV like "I'm afraid for my kids" Are Israelis who say they are concerned by Hamas firing rockets into Israel sociopathic liars, or are they narcissistic shitheads? Are they incapable of normal human emotion, or are they hysterical? You're not being consistent here.
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Jul 19, 2014 07:35
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would be a dumb narcissistic shithead. Anybody who kept saying it after a retaliatory death squad expedition slaughtered hundreds as supposed payback for their killings would be, take a look at it now, inhuman.
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TheRamblingSoul posted:If you have a heavyweight curb-stomping a featherweight, it's easier to feel revulsion when the heavyweight rejoices than when the featherweight does. The scales are extremely uneven here, there is no truth in the middle to be found. quote:And your rhetoric is indeed academic and numbed from the disproportionate brutality. It is the language of a poli-sci PhD candidate writing for an academic journal, not a humanitarian feeling proportionate empathy. If it's not, your language doesn't show it. Calling a spade a spade, etc. It's not the language of a two-minute hate if that's what you want, it's an appeal to a recognition of common humanity, I am sorry if you think that is academic.
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Jul 19, 2014 08:54
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Perry Mason Jar posted:This was the first I/P related thread I found: http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/2b4svy/outrage_as_france_bans_propalestine_demonstrations/ I always find it sad when D&D posters take after freerepublic in their approach to different viewpoints. It's not as if reddit is Stormfront(which, let's be honest, is itself very anti-Israel), is it really so horrible to know that not everyone in the world thinks the same things you do? It seems to me that if you're interested in changing minds rather than just spittle-flecked screaming, you have to be willing to engage with people who hold differing opinions. SedanChair posted:Look it's not pretty, but how else can you stop them from growing up and joining the IDF? I hope you don't honestly believe this, but giving your recourse to dehumanizing rhetoric, and your tendency to prevarication and sarcasm rather than giving honest answers, I really don't know if you do or not. quote:Prove it, immediately. Link to proof that every single soldier cited in this thread was punished. This will include all those who made, sold and purchased the t-shirts promoting the killing of women and pregnant children and the ones quoted in the Vice News piece I posted a screenshot of. Prove it. Prove it. Prove all of it. http://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-soldiers-imprisoned-for-10-days-for-facebook-post/ That's certainly not every single Israeli who posted inflammatory or unpleasant material on social media(which is, of course, an impossible and foolish standard), but I think we can all agree that ten days in the brig is a great deal more than is given to Hamas militants who praise violence against innocent Jews. Not that Palestinian lionization of terrorist murderers in any way excuses Israeli racism, but if you smear all Israelis as jack-booted monsters because a handful of twits on social media posted racist garbage and were punished for it, what does that say about Palestinians, SedanChair? Would you call an entire people scum because some of them, after years of repression and violence, have hardened their hearts against their oppressors?
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Jul 19, 2014 23:49
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PT6A posted:The International Jew, even now, remains a pernicious influence on the political systems of the West. What part of racist myths about Jews are therefore not bullshit? Please be explicit about the how at the superficial level anti-semitism is supported. As to your question: yes, it's clear that events in Israel are used as a warrant for anti-semitism, just as anti-semitism influences beliefs about Israel. But just as it was inexcusable for bigots to exploit 9-11 to stir up hatred against Muslims and Arabs, it's inexcusable for bigots to do the same to target Jews. FRINGE posted:Obama loves his access to money and money-power. See: years of licking the assholes of Wall Street. I'm not quite certain I understand your argument here. Rich Jews control American politic through "money-power", which is why the US supports Israel?
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Jul 20, 2014 00:11
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Job Truniht posted:Israel is a state- not a race I agree. Israel is a nation, Jewish is an ethnicity. It's not racist to criticize Israel, it is racist to suggest that racist beliefs about Jews are correct, or to insinuate that Jews hold some degree of blame for Israeli actions.
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Jul 20, 2014 00:34
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Job Truniht posted:We've been through this before. Israeli citizens should be held accountable for the actions of their government. Stop voting for Likud. Stop giving people like Bibi or Lieberman any legitimacy. Stop pursuing/supporting unsustainable policies. They're not making any effort in removing themselves of accountability. The only reason Israel's actions are possible is because of the rhetoric used by the government and the millions of Israeli citizens (Jews, because Arabs get basically no rights) who support them. So Jews in Israel hold a collective responsibility for the actions of the Israeli government? I also feel I should correct your misperception that non-Jewish Israelis get "basically no rights", given the fact that there are multiple Arab parties in the Knesset, Arab Supreme Court justices, Arab officers in the IDF, etc. This is, of course, different from de facto equality, but your characterization is simply wrong. How far does that responsibility go? Are they therefore legitimate targets under the "right of resistance"? Do Gazans hold an equivalent responsibility for the actions of the elected government of Hamas? The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 00:54 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 00:49
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TipTow posted:Erdogan with the As has been pointed out, Ergodan is trying very hard to curry favor with Islamists, and this kind of rhetoric from him isn't too surprising. To be fair, he's long had a very combative stance towards Israel so it's probably not completely cynical. What the usual suspects in this thread are trying to achieve with  nonstop is another question, since I don't think any of them are in the running for Prime Minister of Turkey. Correct me if I'm wrong, FRINGE.illrepute posted:It's not a popular point in this thread, but I do believe it's possible to be Pro-Israel and Pro-Palestinian at the same time, in the sense that we want the best for both peoples, and that prosperity- for either- is not served at all by occupation and war. Israel needs its friends to stage an intervention. I don't know how many states or whatever will solve the problem. One, two, three, zero, who cares? Right now the most important thing is to stop the killing and re-rail the peace process; to do that, we need to put pressure on the Netanyahu government, because they're the only ones with the power to change the situation on the ground in the Occupied Territories/Gaza. I agree. Which is why I support constructive engagement by the US and regional powers in the peace process, and why Netanyahu's intransigence in the earlier round of peace talks with Abbas is deplorable, just as is Hamas' s escalation of the conflict and refusal of Egypt's proposed ceasefire. I just don't think some adolescent fantasy where Turkey/Iran/Syria come riding in to give the Israeli paper tiger a taste of its own medicine is realistic or a solution.
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Jul 20, 2014 08:54
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FRINGE posted:Does the state of Israeli poltics really make you squirm so much? If you think Israelis are Nazis, why is it so difficulty to just come out and say it instead of equivocating with bad sarcasm? If you're ashamed to say it forthrightly, shouldn't that be a sign you should reconsider your beliefs? Those beliefs are already obviously very extreme, given your approval of nutty conspiracy theories about Israel(like the USS Liberty), so what's gained in beating around the bush? On another topic, one of the most interesting theories about Hamas' actions has been that it represents a split between their military and political wings, with the former driving decision-making before and during the conflict. If the Al-Qassam Brigades aren't engaging in what's meant to be calculated or strategic violence, but actually believe a military victory is possible, that seems to bode very poorly for the possibility of a ceasefire.
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Jul 20, 2014 10:26
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FRINGE posted:Someday there (might?) be an investigation into how much influence a foreign national power should be allowed to have over US policy. If it were Russia or China it would not be tolerated. At that point any US Congressperson who is found to be working against US interests in favor of a foreign power should have a nice short trip to an unhappy courtroom. What do you imagine the penalty for politicians who betray the fatherland to the international Zionist conspiracy should be, FRINGE? How extensive must their crimes in support of the Zionists be to warrant their arrest? Giving a speech at AIPAC? What should their punishment be? And can you give us a few examples of politicians you'd like to see undergo a "nice short trip to an unhappy courtroom" who are in office today? Is President Obama one of the Zionist traitors to the nation?
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Jul 20, 2014 20:46
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CharlestheHammer posted:Though we did try that with the Red Scare, so why I understand why one would want to to that, I don't think its a good idea. CtH, I agree with you that it would not be a "good idea" to lock up politicians who are accused of being too pro-Israel. I don't know why you think why one would want to do that, I have my own ideas about the motivations of someone who wants to jail(fine? execute for treason? FRINGE just mentioned being dragged into a courtroom rather than a specific punishment) politicians who are deemed to be too supportive of Israel. I'm not sure why you say I'm disingenuous. Do you think I secretly desire to see politicians tossed in jail for supporting Israel?
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Jul 20, 2014 21:54
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Neurolimal posted:I have no idea why someone would think The Insect Court, guy who mostly only shows up when an Israel thread is started, who starts arguments on topics that he already started in previous Israel threads (and was proven wrong in those ones as well), could ever be NOT be genuine in his newest attempt to provoke someone into arguing against a poo poo argument that he's started before. Nope. I post extensively in other topics, but I can understand how you could fail to see that if the subject of I/P causes a descent into an apoplectic rage. My arguments in this thread have included "anti-semitism is completely wrong" and "being pro-Israel should not get you arrested". I'm reasonably certain nobody has proven either of those wrong, although there are posters who have taken the opposite positions. murphyslaw posted:Could be something to do with all the circumlocution around baby killing being a bad thing I guess? I don't see any circumlocution, actually. Posts like the following seem to be pretty emphatic in saying that settlers deserve to be killed. I feel I've been very clear in my opposition to the killing of civilians on either side, if that's in doubt let me say that I don't think "Gazans get what they deserve". Neurolimal posted:Settlers get what they deserve, no man who watches a palestinian families' home get bulldozed so that he can have a cheaper house is entirely innocent. Normal Israelis killed by rockets is a tragedy, but one completely eclipsed by the mass-murder Israel has initiated on Palestine, especially when considered that Hamas can not in any way steer these rockets, and that it is their only form of retaliation when Israel is not ground-invading. FRINGE posted:Hey! Its the shiteating babykiller fan. Care to comment on your religious leaders calling for the extermination of every living Palestinian and the enslavement of all non-Jews? This is an odd post. I'm neither Israeli nor Jewish, FRINGE. Even if I were Jewish, I don't think it appropriate or fair of you to suggest that I would therefore support the extermination of every living Palestinian and enslavement of all non-Jews, or that some extremist rabbi should be considered a religious leader for Jews as a whole. edit: Could you clarify your stance calling for politicians who, in your view, betray America for Israel to be arrested? What's the bar that justifies their arrest, and can you give a few examples of elected officials you believe should be imprisoned. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Jul 20, 2014 |
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Jul 20, 2014 22:12
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:Yes you did. Someone asked if the rules were relaxed and you responded with "You have to be pro-palestinian", implying the rules are only being enforced on pro-Israeli posters. It is not difficult for me to see why someone would come to that conclusion of the thread, unless there is some interpretation of "dumb picture" under which only one of the following posts is probatable: sugar free jazz posted:
sugar free jazz posted:Breaking news! We've just now found out why Israel is so focused on the tunnels! Thank you Israel, we are forever in your debt. Bob le Moche posted:Palestinian child reading terrorist literature: kustomkarkommando posted:I don't know man. Villainous brutes that only emerge from their subterranean bunkers at night to kidnap the innocent? White1ce posted:
Pretty sure a bizarro-FRINGE who talked about Palestinians/Arabs the way he talks about Israelis/Jews wouldn't have made it this far through the thread without being banned or probated, and the same probably goes for a few of the other more fanatical posters who show up in I/P threads. FRINGE posted:Hey! Its the shiteating babykiller fan. Care to comment on your religious leaders calling for the extermination of every living Palestinian and the enslavement of all non-Jews? Can I call a poster I disagree with a "shiteating babykiller fan"? Not that I plan on doing so, but I'd just like some description of what the relaxed thread rules are specifically.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:29
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SedanChair posted:I agree that it's not helpful, but I'm getting awfully tired of the catalog of things you're not supposed to say when discussing the conduct of the Israeli government and many of its citizens. I feel that a good way to avoid being criticized for characterizing Israelis as subhuman(as inferior to apes, as sociopathic liars and emotionless killers, etc.) would be to find a way to express your hatred of them without calling into question their literal humanity. Personally, I don't think that is a very difficult task. Try counting down from ten and taking a deep breath before you hit 'post' next time so you can ask yourself "Is there a way to express my intense dislike of Israelis without implying they are less than fully human?" Even if you can't answer in the affirmative, calming down and taking time to think about the claims you are making should leave you in a better position when it comes to explaining you just have to say that a comparison between Israelis and apes is unfair to apes. Absurd Alhazred posted:I doubt that these are actually legitimately paid shills. A lot of people really feel the need to debate in favor of Israel because they feel it is being unfairly attacked. So while some article talk-backs and twitter responses are by Israeli CyberCommand or whatnot, a lot of them aren't, and I doubt any of them would be paid to post here. I mean, I have friends and family who make similar arguments online who I know for a fact are not paid to do so. For what it's worth I don't think Israel is being unfairly criticized, I simply believe that it should be possible to have an I/P thread where certain posters don't explain they believe in the partial validity of anti-semitism, or feel compelled to compare Israelis to Nazis/animals/feces/etc.
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Jul 21, 2014 03:46
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NLJP posted:We're literally all apes so this is really dumb anyway. An interesting perspective. None the less, I would not feel it appropriate to call up, let's say, the local NAACP field office and tell them that they're all a bunch of apes. And to be fair, SedanChair was asserting that a comparison between apes and Israelis was insulting to apes, so the claim was that Israelis ranked below rather than alongside apes. PT6A posted:Well, I think we agree a hundred percent. I believe that, if Hamas had the means, they'd probably target military targets exclusively. Given their willingness to launch what are charitably described as indiscriminate attacks against Israelis, and their long documented use of suicide bombings during the Second Intifada targeting civilians, I find this a difficult claim to agree to. On what evidence do you base your assessment?
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Jul 21, 2014 04:35
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Xandu posted:Even ignoring the racist poo poo, it's easy to forget how fundamentalist these people are. "A gentile and a Jew shouldn't even eat at the same table." The strange thing is that they only seem to be intensely fundamentalist along one axis. Compared to a haredi they appear modern on things like gender segregation and sartorial rules, are they extreme on other religious issues or do they just peg the needle on racism? SedanChair posted:Count to ten and think before you post Working yourself up into an incoherent rage isn't productive or healthy and it doesn't do much to persuade others of the rightness of your beliefs. And if this is an issue that sincerely concerns you, shouldn't you want to convince others that your views are the correct one?
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Jul 21, 2014 04:59
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FRINGE posted:Yeah Albert Einstein was a fictional character. I'm not quite certain why you're convinced I've been calling you names, particularly when you've provided such dramatic examples of name-calling and cheerleading in your own posts directed at me. Disagreement is not insult, despite the rage that seems to arise from a lot of posters in this thread when they're confronted with different opinions on this issue. quote:
And I certainly haven't suggested you're some sort of paid operative or don't believe the things you say, particularly given that would be very expressly in violation against the explicit rules for this thread.
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Jul 21, 2014 05:23
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