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Not doing an OP, just post about it in here instead of elsewhere.New Division posted:I wouldn't completely rule out a ground invasion of the Gaza Strip for this go-around, even if it's only a temporary occupation. A lot of Netanyahu's allies are baying for some serious blood this time. I think Lieberman said that yesterday, even before they were found. THREAD RULES: IF YOUR POST ADDS SOMETHING TO THE THREAD AND POSITIVELY CONTRIBUTES, IT'S FINE. IF IT DOESN'T, YOU MIGHT GET PROBATED. edits: links to like all of the articles posted in the thread Blowdryer posted:http://parlanceprovince.wordpress.com/ip-table-of-contents/ Links to books The Easy Rider posted:For an in-depth debunking of the common claim that "Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity", and that they walked away from an offer for a Palestinian state, Clayton E. Swisher's The Truth About Camp David is a good read, compiling a number of interviews with insiders in the negotiations. Xandu fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Aug 8, 2014 |
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Jul 1, 2014 00:35
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I wouldn't be surprised if they did it, but I'd like to see some actual evidence, since Israel was itching to attack them as soon as they reunited with Fatah. They admitted they took Shalit within like a day.
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Jul 1, 2014 00:38
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Elotana posted:Yes, this is what strikes me as unusual. When Hamas kidnaps Israelis they usually crow about it and try to ransom them. They don't kill them and leave them in a ditch somewhere to be found under ambiguous circumstances. I think you're right. If they were really killed soon after the kidnapping (it couldn't have been immediately since one of them called the police soon after), it kind of screams amateur abductors who realized they got in over their heads. I don't know though, they've been repeatedly saying they have unequivocal proof for a week now, but haven't actually said what it is. Maybe they will now that it's over.
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Jul 1, 2014 00:43
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FlamingLiberal posted:If they actually did you would think they would say something before dropping bombs. More than likely it's BS Well, maybe. Bombing does a hell of a lot more to appease domestic outrage than releasing evidence and having a debate.
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Jul 1, 2014 00:46
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Ofaloaf posted:Was there even a token effort at a joint criminal investigation with the Palestinians, or was this all just calls for blood and saber rattling from the beginning? I only caught wind of this story within the last few days. quote:Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said Tuesday that he appreciated PA President Mahmoud Abbas’s words on the kidnapping of the three Israeli teens in Saudi Arabia, labeling them “important.”
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Jul 1, 2014 01:02
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ReV VAdAUL posted:More Palestinians have been killed in the search for the settlers than settlers were murdered. That isn't even to mention the vastly greater number of Palestinians killed than Israelis in the wider I/P conflict. Interesting choice to define them solely as settlers.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:06
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Elotana posted:Nothing is more exhausting in I/P threads than "if you condemn X you need to condemn Y." Not only does everyone not necessarily make discrete posts about every single thing that upsets them (I would think that "murdering three Israeli boys is wrong" would go without saying for most here), not only is tu quoque for the most part a logical fallacy, but examining hypocrisies of individual posters in this thread is profoundly unproductive compared to hypocrisies of, say, the Israeli or Palestinian governments. It turns the thread into endless comparisons of condemnation checklists and "my empathy dick is bigger than your empathy dick" instead of actual discussion. Absolutely true, but there's a running theme in this thread that no one should care about them being killed because they were settlers and were "rub[bing] their free movement in Palestinians' faces."
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Jul 1, 2014 19:25
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It is more than reasonable to assume that Jewish settlers and/or their supporters have been responsible for a lot of deaths and agony that these killers and their families have undergone. So is their assault justified? They did attack Jewish settlers. Teenagers shouldn't be killed because of their parents' political choices.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:26
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And 2 of them were also minors. You could use the same logic to justify droning Awlakis son, but it's make you a monster. and you can't use them being settlers to excuse them being murdered while repeatedly denying the possiblity of Palestinians being responsible. If it was Israelis, them being settlers would be entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
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Jul 1, 2014 19:36
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Ok, but again, you can use that same logic to justify murdering children of terrorists. and that's a pretty monstrous attitude. Would it still be okay if they'd been 5 instead of 16? What if they were infants? Edit: in response to guyincognito
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Jul 1, 2014 19:50
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ReV VAdAUL posted:Who is saying the deaths were in any way justified? Did you read the post above your's?
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Jul 1, 2014 19:57
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computer parts posted:Aren't there Arab Israeli citizens who aren't Palestinians? Sure there's Jews from other Arab countries, but generally when people refer to Arab Israelis, they mean Palestinians.
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Jul 1, 2014 23:38
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TheImmigrant posted:Not really. Arabs citizens of Israel are Israelis (Israel is nearly 20% Arab Israeli). "Palestinian" as a nationality is to the exclusion of Israeli. "Palestinian" as a demonym means a person from, or descended from people from the British Mandate of Palestine who rejected Israeli citizenship. That's a loaded view of Israeli nationality. Can you present evidence that Arab Israelis endorse that view? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70cVaFMlbfM
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Jul 2, 2014 00:10
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TheImmigrant posted:Not beyond the anecdotal. Think about it though. The Palestinian national movement operates in opposition to Israel. Logically, they are mutually-exclusive. No one speaks of Israeli Palestinians, but we hear of Israeli Arabs, such as Druze and Bedouin. Palestinians exist and need a state, but they live in the West Bank and Gaza, not Israel. Most Arabs are not Palestinian. Yeah, but not all Israeli Arabs are Druze or Bedouin. Plenty consider themselves Palestinians as well. But you're right, they operate in a weird inbetween that makes their identity not black and white, because they don't all feel fully part of Israel, yet they clearly are in many respects.
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Jul 2, 2014 00:16
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Quench domestic outrage and break Hamas.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:29
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ozmunkeh posted:I blame the settler parents, quite literally, in the sense that if they hadn't brought their kids along with them while invading another country they would be alive today. In America a national "bring your kids to war" day was an amusing onion article. In israel it's a way of life apparently. I looked into this a bit further because I was curious and brought up something before kind of similar. Only one of them actually grew up in a settlement, but the other two were studying at a kibbutz in the West Bank.
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Jul 2, 2014 02:46
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I know, just thought it was interesting that they didn't grow up in settlements.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:30
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What source are you using? Ynet (Yedioth's website) has only one of them, Naftali Frenkel, being from inside the Green Line. Grabbed the towns from the sidebar here. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/02/w...&pgtype=article quote:Eyal Yifrach, 19, was from Elad, an ultra-Orthodox town in central Israel.
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Jul 2, 2014 03:38
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Use your quote tags! This isn't Vox 
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Jul 2, 2014 06:39
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The Insect Court posted:BDS isn't collective punishment, it isn't remotely close to, say, Israel's restrictions on imports into the Gaza Strip. Surely the aim of boycotting, divesting, and sanctions is the same though? I'm not saying it's wrong, the goal is to punish Israel so its government changes course, but if we take the goal of BDS to its logical conclusion of isolating Israel, it's kind of collective punishment.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:25
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Under the Geneva Convention, yes, but in a broader sense of the phrase it's punishing people for actions they are not directly responsible for and sanctions clearly qualify.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:No it's not. Even if we keep to liberal political theory, due to these whole freedom of trade and freedom of association things everybody is free to trade with whomever they please. Unless you're arguing that the rest of the world has some sort of moral duty to trade with Israel that overrides their own liberties the description of BDS as collective punishment is absurd. They don't have a moral duty to do so, but to explicitly not do so because of the Israeli governments actions is to collectively punish all Israelis. I don't think there is any way around that. Fundamentally, that's what sanctions are. As stated by Absurd Alhazred, BDS is decentralized and not particularly effective, but that doesn't change it's goal.
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Jul 2, 2014 07:56
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OwlBot 2000 posted:Does an electorate in a democratic country bear no responsibility for the policies it chooses? Netanyahu is only around as long as the majority of Israelis want him to be. Are you morally responsible for Bush invading Iraq, assuming you're American? Collectively, the US electorate was, but it's of course more complicated. I don't know, I don't think the actions of the Israeli are qualitatively that much worse than the US government or quite a few other democratic governments, hard to be internally consistent when only boycotting the one. edit:: At least as far as my opinions go, I feel very comfortably boycotting settler goods, boycotting Israeli goods as a whole makes me a little more uncomfortable, even though I wholeheartedly oppose the government's actions. Xandu fucked around with this message at 08:09 on Jul 2, 2014 |
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Jul 2, 2014 08:03
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Big protest in West Bank earlier today.
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Jul 2, 2014 17:25
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Jordan did, but let's stop talking about Germany.
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Jul 3, 2014 00:20
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FRINGE posted:
That's bullshit, that's exactly what some people are acting like. Sorry, it's not okay to fire rockets randomly into a country, even if they're so lovely they don't do much damage.
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Jul 8, 2014 07:57
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Main Paineframe posted:The problem I see with making an issue out of Palestinian rockets is that they're not the only ones firing off ordinance - Israel regularly fires off artillery or airstrikes into Palestinian territory, and upswings in rocket activity are often in direct response to those. Of course, the artillery and airstrikes are often in response to rockets or other violent behaviors, but it's a tit-for-tat going back so many decades that it's no longer useful to worry about who fired the first shot. The question now needs to be "who should stop first?", and Israel really is in a much better position to play the bigger man and stop firing off explosives. I agree, Israelis revenge response (which is not limited to stopping rocket fire) is the big problem, but it's silly to pretend they're glorified fireworks with no potential for harm, or that indiscriminate rocket fire is ok.
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Jul 8, 2014 17:41
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Cat Mattress posted:The real way out for the Palestinians: Palestinians aren't actually interested in a one state solution, despite some people's enamoration with the idea.
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Jul 8, 2014 22:17
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I'm curious what the end game is here for Israel. Hard to see this lasting indefinitely, but I don't think it's in their interest to invade and occupy, despite some internal pressure to do so.Paul MaudDib posted:
Well is there any evidence that Hamas or other armed groups are even attempting to aim towards particular targets? Given where they've tended to land, I'm skeptical. If there's no valid military purpose to the attack, it's illegal. If the rocket is aimed at a valid target, but happens to kill civilians, it's generally permissible. edit: And yeah, most of the World War 2 bombing campaigns of German or Japanese cities would be considered illegal. Xandu fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Jul 8, 2014 |
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Jul 8, 2014 22:25
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Condiv posted:I think it's conquest. They'll take the good/useful land and leave the Palestinians small patches of useless land. They'll also continue their current tactic of claiming Palestine as a separate nation while strictly controlling it so they don't have to give the Palestinians citizenship and rights. I generally agree, but it'd a huge step back for them to move into Gaza again. I could see them doing so given their other actions, but I really hope not. I just wonder when they can claim victory in this campaign. UberJew posted:In regards to today's rocket attacks: "The Khan Younis massacre... of children is a horrendous war crime, and all Israelis have now become legitimate targets for the resistance," Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri said in a statement. That doesn't actually make it true.
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Jul 8, 2014 22:37
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Paul MaudDib posted:If your argument comes down to "using dumb bombs and artillery shells is a war crime" then every single country is guilty of war crimes and the term is absolutely meaningless. Why should anyone care about a moral standard that every country has broken in every war ever, will continue to break in every war to come, and that no one thinks is a big deal unless it's being used as an excuse to justify the continued ghettoization and occupation of a country? Why should I care about Israel's occupation? Plenty of countries have occupied states they're at war with. [/devils advocate]
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Jul 8, 2014 22:38
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tekz posted:They deliberately went and hosed someone's legs up because they were professional footballers? quote:Their names are Jawhar Nasser Jawhar, 19, and Adam Abd al-Raouf Halabiya, 17. They were once soccer players in the West Bank. Now they are never going to play sports again. Jawhar and Adam were on their way home from a training session in the Faisal al-Husseini Stadium on January 31 when Israeli forces fired upon them as they approached a checkpoint. After being shot repeatedly, they were mauled by checkpoint dogs and then beaten. Ten bullets were put into Jawhar’s feet. Adam took one bullet in each foot. After being transferred from a hospital in Ramallah to King Hussein Medical Center in Amman, they received the news that soccer would no longer be a part of their futures. (Israel’s border patrol maintains that the two young men were about to throw a bomb.) Haven't really seen any evidence of them possessing a bomb. edit: better article http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east/1.572103
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Jul 10, 2014 05:48
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Well, notably, the picture was not in the article, nor does it appear to be published.
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Jul 10, 2014 06:22
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Tezzor posted:Am I more willing to believe that some small number of the armed goons of an belligerent renegade state, drawn from a population all polling data indicates is so shockingly racist it makes the American South look like the BK Kidz Club, might violate ostensible protocol, commit brutality and cover it up, than I am willing to believe that a kid was shot ten times in the foot as some tragic accident? Yes! Thank you for asking. Don't forget mauled by dogs and beaten. Very standard protocol for would-be bombers.
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Jul 10, 2014 08:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Honestly, his posting is pretty good compared to the people whining about "why aren't these people probated yet" and comparing him to a "cat-stroking Bond villain". He's at least supporting his points, even if they come from a perspective we disagree with and consider to be morally abhorrent. Seriously, this is infinitely more annoying, put him on loving ignore if he's that awful.
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Jul 11, 2014 05:50
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I saw some poll on Twitter that shows support for Israel declines amongst younger people, but support for Palestine stays pretty constant at about 12%.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:10
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Senjuro posted:The 5% figure makes no sense. Every time you hear an explosion and see a smoke plum in the sky left by an interception then there's no addition follow up explosion like there would be if the Iron Dome missed and the rocket had landed and I've seen smoke plums in far more then 5% of attacks. Call it anecdotal evidence but it doesn't fit in at all with what I'm seeing and hearing. I'm sure Brown Moses would have some thoughts on that particular scientist, given his questionable claims on Syria. quote:Ted Postol, an MIT-based missile defense expert and frequent Bulletin contributor, provided a dose of context to the Iron Dome coverage in a National Public Radio interview Wednesday. "We can tell, for sure, from video images and even photographs that the Iron Dome system is not working very well at all," Postol said. "It—my guess is maybe [it hits a targeted missile] 5 percent of the time—could be even lower. ... And when you look—what you can do in the daytime—you can see the smoky contrail of each Iron Dome interceptor, and you can see the Iron Domes trying to intercept the artillery rockets side on and from behind. In those geometries, the Iron Dome has no chance, for all practical purposes, of destroying the artillery rocket." IDF claims closer to 80% I think.
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Jul 12, 2014 20:13
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OwlBot 2000 posted:At least this will result in less collateral damage than aerial bombardment . Not either or, this looks to be a very limited incursion. Hamas denies they even made it on land.
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Jul 13, 2014 08:58
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Hellbeard posted:
When Israel lays its claim through violence and occupation, the merits of its claim become deeply irrelevant. Who cares if they have a divine or historical right to be there if they're enforcing it by killing and displacing civilians.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:25
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vintagepurple posted:Hellbeard, where is the homeland of the palestinian people? How long had they been in Palestine by 1948? Where did they come from? Who lived there before them? How did they take it? Here I'll save hellbeard the trouble: There are no Palestinian people, only Arabs. Therefore it's totally okay to kick them out to Jordan.
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Jul 13, 2014 21:45
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