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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Amppelix posted:

This episode was where I stopped watching Doctor Who for like, a year. Not after the second part; specifically in the middle. So I guess it really was that bad.

I'm haunted by the thought that Occ might choose this course of action.

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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
sic transit rory ex mundi

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Yeah, I think once he pulled his arm out it started getting bigger and brighter. I can't say for sure though because even though I watched the last 10 minutes of the episode just a couple of hours ago it's so drat unmemorable by virtue of being a part of that episode that I've mostly forgotten it.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I confess I don't have any such personal reasons for not liking this episode so much, I was just put out that the fun sci-fi adventure went on vacation for a week and was replaced by some overwrought Van Gogh fan fiction. I think I predicted an A because I remember everyone else who saw it loving it, and figured it just left me cold because instead of a heart I have a shard of obsidian.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Pwnstar posted:

If you think the Doctor running around trying to fight a monster he can't see and attacking a fence isn't a fun sci-fi adventure then I'm sorry about your life.

I'd forgotten most of the episode except for the big speech about how Van Gogh was the best person who ever lived, so being reminded that it had some actual really good bits like that was a nice time.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
They'd hear his introduction of "Hello, I am Vincent Van Gogh" and immediately misdiagnose him.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Timestamp the Matt Smith junk, this needs verification.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Craptacular! posted:

I'm surprised at the reaction to this episode, the majority of classic fans I know simply despise it for various reasons, most if which have to do with all these moments that could truly be called OOC for the Doctor as an overall meta-character. Most of all I think it's because they made the episode so sitcom-like. It's like you expect a laugh track at times, and Doctor Who shouldn't be a sitcom. Ever.
The BBC don't seem to agree, given that they got a sitcom writer to run the show.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
It's funny to remember how crazy a bunch of people went trying to find puzzle pieces in an actually quite straightforward and simple series.

*giant crack with white light spilling out of it appears behind Craig's fridge and Amy holds up her engagement ring as creepy music plays*
Viewer: wait a minute that painting...

Right at the start of The Eleventh Hour when Matt Smith is hanging out the Tardis there's a frown on his face for a split second and I saw some Youtube video where that's a sign he saw something at that moment that he never told anyone about afterwards and was a part of some Moffat masterplan.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Nick Cave and the Bad Wolf

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
The last 10 minutes of this episode are basically the highlight of the whole series for me. There's a really wonderful sense of a trap closing as the box opens, all the world's evils are unleashed, and the box is sealed shut again with hope still inside. Gotcha!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Speaking of predestination loops, the cracks are caused by the Tardis exploding, which happened because the Doctor wasn't there to stop it, because he just got imprisoned by bad guys who used Amy to get to him. So really the ultimate cause of the cracks is the Doctor crash landing in Amy's back garden and deciding to investigate the cracks. I doubt Moffat was going for that as it's more tenuous than the classic "man is given a watch by his future self which he then gives to his past self" but he just can't help himself.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I also really love that line from River: "I hate good wizards in fairy tales, they always turn out to be him." The first time you watch it's a cute joke, the second time it's foreshadowing

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Very carefully!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

El Pato posted:

The blue fat guy says he got his teleporter by cutting it off of the hand of a handsome time traveler...is, is Jack alright? :ohdear:
I think in the series of Torchwood that came after this they showed him with a scar on his wrist or something. I also think RTD said the spacetime rift in Cardiff was one of the Cracks In Time.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

adhuin posted:

We as watchers might know there are others, but the Daleks/Cybermen/etc do not have that information.
They just know that the Dreadbeast Doctor rides his Tardis-of-Doom and will cause the end of the world if not stopped.

The phrase "the Doctor in the Tardis" has come up a couple of times this series (prisoner zero and the Angels say it, I'm sure it cropped up somewhere else too) presumably to set up the idea that the Doctor and the Tardis are inextricably linked in many people's minds.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
The fez meme got played out but I still think it was worth it for "I can buy a fez"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Even after rewatching this episode a couple of times I have a really hard time finding fault with it. I guess the bit after the "rewind" goes on a bit, but then it has to be a bit long to really give you that unnerving feeling of the Doctor not being there. I guess how did River end up in 2010 to drop off that book without her vortex manipulator, but then she knows Amy from future/past adventures so maybe she'd make an extra effort to turn up to the wedding anyway, or something who knows. I guess the reveal that Amy's parents were swallowed by the cracks is just told in exposition, but on the other hand I love that final conversation between Amy and the Doctor, and the way it's not a dramatic reveal but a sad thing that happened and he comforts her. I guess we don't really feel the impact of Rory's 2000 years of solitude, he seems to be exactly the same guy afterwards, but then that's just because Rory owns. This is just such a god drat good episode and I love it so much.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

howe_sam posted:

Amy seems pretty defiantly Scottish. She drinks whisky.

She also probably would've voted for Independence.

She said "good for them" when she found out they had their own ship in The Beast Below, so probably.

I think I'll vote with random grades as well, because even years later I still don't know if I hated series 6 or not. Might as well stick with the established "I don't know what to make of this" precedent

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I was also cool on this episode when I first watched it. In my case I was trying to keep up with all the time stuff going on and wasn't concentrating on the character stuff so much as a result. It's kind of interesting to me that while RTD's finales all revolved around a big universe ending threat, Moffat has the universe end and then cleans up the mess. I like the feeling of the episode taking place in the quiet time after the worst has happened. Maybe that's a decent message to send the kiddies watching as well- bad things happen and they can't always be prevented but maybe they can be fixed. By, uh, turning back time.

2house2fly fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Feb 14, 2015

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
"Screwdriver" has been an obvious simplification of the type of device it is for a long time. Although the torch lighting does conflict with what's been pretty consistently one of its limitations- it "doesn't do wood". Let's say that torch was an advanced cyber torch somehow.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

CobiWann posted:

I must be the only person in existence who HATED the scene with River and the Dalek.

That's a Dalek. They are the most evil beings in the universe. They hate EVERYTHING that isn't a Dalek. They have no emotions. All they want to do is kill, kill, kill. Mercy is not in their data banks

I like Alex Kingston, but I am annoyed by "know it all but won't tell you" characters. The trope rubs me the wrong way even when I love the actor/actress (see Elizabeth Mitchell's character in her first few episodes of Lost).

For everything awesome River did, there was something else that Moffat did that made me say "yes, yes, River is the best, can we please move on?" Getting a drat Dalek to ask for mercy firmly shoved her, for me, into "Mary Sue" territory and for the rest of her run on the show, I cringed when she showed.

I mean, even when Ace managed to hurt a Dalek with a baseball bat, it kept shooting at her, not pleading for her to stop.

it's the last one in existence and incredibly weak, I can totally imagine it asking to be spared under those circumstances. Also it looking up River Song and being absolutely terrified by what it finds isn't necessarily meant to make you like her more.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Craptacular! posted:

The thing to understand about River is, in another Moffat loop she only knows everything because the Doctor wrote a diary of everything they did together at some point, from his perspective. She is basically calling the Doctor from various time periods, hoping to ping him from whenever. She doesn't know what he was doing last or what he has done already when he answers the call, she once didn't even get the Doctor generation she expected.

At first, all her confidence comes from having a magic book, and in Time Of Angels the script in the book wasn't followed correctly (the ship wasn't supposed to crash, the whole thing wasn't supposed to be filled with super angels that break the rules of angels) and when the book wasn't followed all that confidence disappeared into just blind faith that the Doctor has a solution.

That's one of the reasons she's much better in this episode. She still doesn't know what's going to happen, because the Pandorica wasn't written in her book: it never happened after the universe is set back on it's axis, so the Doctor would not have written it down. If it was written down, she would have known it was a trap without going to Amy's house and trying to jumpstart a TARDIS.
This post is so exactly not what happens in the show that I can only assume you're using a complicated metaphor.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Bicyclops posted:

I don't car for River after the Angels episode. There's just too much telling us that she's awesome (for some reason, Daleks are afraid of her, she can get out of a high security prison whenever she wants magically, yadda yadda). I liked her better when she was a kickass archaeologist and not just 'the most awesome person ever." I don't hate her and Alex Kingston is great, but she's just over-written.

The Dalek learns that River is a killer and asks for mercy, and her response is to make it beg and then kill it anyway. That's not the sort of thing you have a character do to show how cool they are.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Burkion posted:

See, the problem with this?

That wasn't a *GOOD THING* the Doctor did.

It was presented as pretty loving lovely all things considered.
Yes, exactly! This guy gets it! So, in exactly the same way, when Riv-

Burkion posted:

With River it's just an echo without the meaning. "She's so badass she can make a Dalek beg for mercy!" It's not a flaw, it's a feature.
Cripes!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Father Octavian: Don't trust her. She killed a man. A good man. A hero to many.

Doctor Who Viewer: Ugh, River is such a Mary Sue even the other characters keep praising her!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
EDIT: I'm sorry for having a meltdown about the Dalek scene in your thread, Occupation!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Obviously you don't have to like the scene, but whether you like the scene or not it's a sinister foreshadowing scene and not a demonstration of awesomeness.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Transcript of the scene btw:

Dalek: Records indicate you will show mercy. You are an associate of the Doctor's.
River: I'm River Song. Check your records again.
[brief pause while the Dalek accesses its records and shits what might be, since it's currently made out of stone, a literal brick]
Dalek: Mercy.
River: Say it again.
Dalek: Mercy!
River: One more time.
Dalek: MERCYYYYY!

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Jack Harkness is a benign swashbuckling space adventurer and taunting and murdering a powerless opponent in cold blood would be a disservice to his character :colbert:

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
God bless us, every one.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Wait are you reviewing Monster Hunter or Charles Dickens?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I think this is an absolutely magical and wonderful episode and the fact that it didn't get an A is bordering on a war crime. That being said, I predicted a B so fair enough.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Rory: "It's just a bit of fun"

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

quote:

How Abigail feels about the fact that she’s been a slave for years, and is now about to die, fails to be a blip on anyone’s radar.
I remember being annoyed by that but when I rewatched the episode she told Kazran off for leaving her frozen for so long and the only reason nobody knew she was dying was because she chose not to tell them, she has plenty of agency in the story. As for the "system," that's a consequence of having a character who's a big monologuing hero: look at all the stuff he doesn't fix. The Doctor saved Charles Dickens from ghosts but didn't stop the First World War, he saved Agatha Christie from wasps but didn't do anything about Hitler. They explained away Pompeii with fixed points in time, which are kind of like load-bearing walls for the space-time continuum, but you can't do that for everything- was 9/11 a fixed point in time? The Black Death? Margaret Thatcher's eleven years as prime minister? He's got a time machine with access to the creation of the Earth and the end of the universe, there's no bad thing he couldn't have prevented, but he doesn't prevent them because that's not what the show is about. It's about a wacky time traveller having adventures with a little boy and a flying shark. Maybe it should instead become about a man who uses his infinite power to decide the outcome of every significant event in history, but that's a premise that might be harder to do justice in a kids' show.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
She's playing monhun as well, and when you think about it isn't a child the ultimate monster?

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
I don't mind a long review at all, and a detailed summary can highlight things I didn't notice when I watched, but it's not strictly necessary. The majority of people reading the reviews have already watched the show after all, so they wouldn't need a lot of detail to catch up.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
If nothing else playing Monster Hunter will get you in the mood for the series 6 finale, in which the Doctor beats Dire Miralis with an Ananta Boneblade

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Toxxupation posted:

Random Thoughts:
  • One of the shittier things about this episode is that I'm watching it when I know that Peter Capaldi ends up being the twelfth Doctor, so Eleven "being killed" loses a lot of its punch on an objective level. It's not "Impossible Astronaut"'s fault, mind you- but I imagine Eleven's murder plays a lot better in the moment as opposed to now when I know that he continues on not only to the end of this season but the end of next one, and not only that but he's able to successfully regenerate.
Maybe, but then with an adventure show you pretty much always know the hero is going to survive. Probably hence RTD's last few episodes having the looming ominous event being the regeneration itself, and Tennant playing up the "I die and another man goes walking off" thing.

EDIT: though to his credit Moffat played it up offscreen as well, he kept responding to people on twitter who asked him about it with "nope, he's definitely dead" etc.

2house2fly fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Mar 17, 2015

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2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!
Jonathan Creek is also great because while in Doctor Who the answer to how something is done is "space techno-magic" in Jonathan Creek the solution to the mystery is something technically practical but completely insane.

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