Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

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That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I'm also really looking forward to this. I couldn't keep going after book 5 or 6, but I love excerpts and reviews of this kind of poo poo.

I recall that I liked the first book well enough. As said, it's largely pretty standard fantasy. As soon as you hit the meat of the second book, though, drat.

Thanks for hurting yourself for our entertainment.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2014 05:24

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 12:37

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I think that stuff in the first book feels less shocking on a first read, because it seems like just a one-off "the villain is so evil you guys." Then you read more of the series with dawning horror that hosed up poo poo like that is not-so-slowly taking over. The extended "prison" sequence with Kahlan in I think Blood of the Fold really hammered it home for me.

# ¿ Oct 1, 2014 08:02

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Grimpond posted:

I remember first discovering this series years and years ago. I thought they were okay, but weirdly descriptive in places, but then it just kept getting bizarrely political, and then I think I stopped after the book where dick spends time in the wheel of time knock off city as a slave with a magic slave collar to keep him from using magic or something. Am I remembering that right?

Well that is I think book 2. So...

# ¿ Oct 1, 2014 22:19

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Gotta be honest, I completely forgot Michael existed or that he, uh, made campaign promises "against" fire. I remember lots of magical bullshit going on at the border of the Westlands and stuff, but it seems like the Westland itself pretty much disappears for most of the series after the start of the first book.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2014 06:07

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Robotic Folksinger posted:

Is there a reason why just shooting them in the back with a bow when they're not suspecting it wouldn't work? Or using some other ranged weapon?

Because the author didn't think of something that simple.

Edit: I mean it's still best to send a team, but I recall the quads being beefy super melee guys which is just loving dumb, on multiple levels. I think Goodkind is probably one of those guys who thinks ranged combat is uncool. Everything is swords (and eventually close range lightning bolts) because that's what makes fantasy fun. Really basic practicalities have little to do with these books.

Edit 2: And goddamn, I forgot how awful the mud people stuff was. They take up so much space and are themselves so loving unimportant. Also racist.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 16:49 on Oct 6, 2014

# ¿ Oct 6, 2014 16:30

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

TheCenturion posted:

Mainly, I think, the method of killing is sending a message. They're not being killed, they're being horribly raped and murdered by dedicated death squads who fight for the privilege of getting to rape their victims. Might make you think twice before messing with D'hara.

There's plenty of rape camp to go around :barf:

so it's kind of dumb to mess around when assassinating magically dangerous pseudo-heads of state. I don't think Goodkind put much more thought into it beyond rapemurder being totally mature and edgy.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2014 17:01

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I think it's a useful summary/primer to note a couple things about Ayn Rand. She published a collection of writings about her hosed ethics system, and named it "The Virtue of Selfishness", going on to argue that no really everyone has just been using the word " selfish" wrong it's not actually a bad thing. Also she thought a child murderer was totes the bomb because he was just so self actualized.

TheCenturion posted:

D'hara didn't have the rape camps; that was the Order. But for another in-universe reason, remember that Confessors don't wander the woods alone, generally; they travel with retinues, their dedicated Wizard bodyguards, etc etc.

When Kahlen winds up at that castle in the first book, with Richard and Zedd, I'm fairly sure she makes mention of how she's going to instantly be at a disadvantage due to not having a dog and pony show to reinforce her authority, but hopefully having the Seeker of Truth would help make up for it's lack.

Also, I can't remember if the wall between D'hara and the Midlands came down before or after he started really going after the Confessors; if the wall was still up, and he was limited in who he could get *into* the Midlands, it would make far more sense to send a group of four burly guys who could handle themselves than a single sniper with a bow.

I haven't read the books in a long time, so I don't want to come across as arguing the point, but I thought D'Hara had some weird sex thing that amounted to a rape camp, even if it's not the kind that comes to mind at those words. Like maybe brothels with forced service? Also the bondage magical girl harem.

That tangent aside, I'll note I originally said teams are best, so please don't bust out that rhetorical nonsense.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2014 23:38

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Oh man just you wait for the first time he busts out the sword's True Ultimaximum Truthiness Magic. Spoiler: it might just take forever to get there even at this pace.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 6, 2014

# ¿ Oct 6, 2014 23:42

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Kellsterik posted:

So he draws this magic sword and it makes him furious, like he can barely control the anger in him, and his reaction isn't "this is a cursed relic"? Considering how blatant the book has been so far, it seems to reveal something ugly about Terry Goodkind that the ultimate power of the sword of truth is being able to unleash your fully justified rage.

It's certainly something that grabs frustrated, know-it-all teenagers and libertarians.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2014 23:56

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Night10194 posted:

What is it about Objectivists that makes them write these giant loving tomes whenever they write? Do they think it makes them look smarter?

That and he's a fantasy author. He's King of Never Shutting Up.

# ¿ Oct 7, 2014 02:27

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I was remiss. Clearly this book full of nude wizards, rape witches and truth-seeking SSJ4 Goku is no mere fantasy!

# ¿ Oct 7, 2014 03:02

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Libertad! posted:

Between Sword of Truth, Steve Ditko's Mr. A and The Question, and Watchmen's Rorschach being based off of the latter, I'm almost tempted to write out an Objectivist fantasy setting/RPG as a dark parody. All governments are simultaneously incompetent and evil, overwhelming violence and hatred can be justified by the PCs because "they're special," and the major NPCs have silly names like "Luke Darklord."

I sincerely cannot tell if this is a joke on purpose.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2014 04:00

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Since I never got to that part of the series, I went and looked up multiple explanations of how the Boxes of Orden work and it still doesn't make any goddamn sense.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2014 06:10

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

I want you to know I spent an hour cleaning up the original, super-drunk version of that writeup for you all after the last one was so lovely, and I did it in the 5 hours I have between two shifts. This is how much I love you/hate myself.

I certainly appreciate it. It's nice to have a concrete reminder that my younger self had even worse taste than I do now.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2014 08:56

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

thespaceinvader posted:

I'd forgotten all about Heart Hounds. Mostly because this is the ONLY loving TIME THEY COME UP.

These things that got released all across the midlands to prey upon people at random, and can't be stopped except by the most brutal and badass dudes...

Never. loving. Seen. Again.

I seem to recall this happens with some regularity. He realizes he oversold X so he just doesn't write about it ever again.

# ¿ Oct 28, 2014 19:22

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Esposito posted:

Is it the Mud People who send all their most promising fighters for Richard to kill? I don't remember what the point of it was, except that it allows Goodkind to jump Richard straight to blademaster status and proclaim him the Car'a'carn, while awkwardly working in an Aiel-like people who are never mentioned again.

Nah, that's the next book's racist stopover.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2014 14:30

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I think that's the third one, which I recall being pretty boring since it was mostly wandering around and exposition to solve a really dumb "puzzle", as opposed to the more memorable books full of rape and the occasional magic pretend-infidelity period sex. (This doesn't necessarily mean there aren't at least a few rapes in there, but by then it's old hat :barf:

and the rest of the book is so dumb.)

But it's been a while, and even when I liked the series I never cared enough to keep it all straight. I remember the first book pretty well because I read it a lot (started over with each new sequel release), and the second book I thought was maybe the best of the books. Then there's the fourth book (Or fifth? Oh who loving cares.) with what I mentioned in spoilers, and everything else is a blur as the rapes and Marty Stuisms pile up.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Nov 8, 2014

# ¿ Nov 8, 2014 15:11

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Zereth posted:

How do I not remember any of this poo poo?

Because like everything else that isn't Richard directly doing a thing, none of it ends up mattering.

It's so much worse than I remembered.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2014 18:34

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Mostly the "rules" of magic don't matter, even the male/female dichotomy. Magic's gonna do what the gently caress ever to make the plot do what Goodkind wants at the time. The most important divide is Additive/Subtractive, but as pointed out much earlier in the thread, that axis as-explained doesn't make much sense and likewise isn't exploited consistently when it drives the plot.

# ¿ Nov 17, 2014 18:12

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Dr.Magnificent posted:

There is a conversation between Richard and Kahlan that addresses the cooldown part. I have no idea if we passed it over or not, but essentially, Kahlan's powers have such a low cooldown that it still wouldn't be feasible. But don't worry, Dick will rules lawyer his way out of it. That's his superpower.

I think her "cooldown" time is still given as, like, hours. Which I can believe Goodkind would think is not enough time for a really manly man to finish the job. Because the manliest thing one can do with sex is turn it into an overlong chore.

(EDIT: Here we go. A place for all your hilarious Sword of Truth needs!)

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Nov 19, 2014

# ¿ Nov 19, 2014 01:37

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Bucnasti posted:

Wasn't Giller supposed to be trying to redeem himself for betraying Zedd or something, and doesn't that mean he died without anyone knowing what he did.

Apparently, selling your services like Giller did for the queen is taboo for wizards. Except, he secretly did it to protect the Box from Dark Roll. He's 100% a better person than every other adult human in these books, and he dies pointlessly near the beginning of the whole series.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2014 09:44

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

One wonders why Zed allowed the Boxes and the Sword to be distributed as trophies, when he seems perfectly willing to bilk people for petty reasons, and we later find out that he has the perfect treasure storehouse to keep all this ridiculous macguffin crap locked away. Of course, the answer is that he had to allow people to "learn from their own mistakes", even if that means letting the world blow up and shirking presumed duties of his post. It's like how you have to let children accidentally shoot themselves to teach them gun safety.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2014 20:21

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

If you think the writing's awkward and awful now, just wait until we get to the gross sex poo poo (i.e., the last quarter of every book, and sometimes the beginning and middle, too).

# ¿ Nov 22, 2014 07:04

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Skrewtape posted:

I would have loved to be in the room when they were designing this whole Confessor system.

"So if they have a male child, it might turn into a world-destroying evil. Anything we can do about that?"

"Nope, they're just going to have kill their own baby if that happens."

"Sounds good. Now, is there any way we could let them have sex with someone without confessing them?"

"Nope, they'll just have to destroy the ego of anyone they love."

"OK, that's fine. Now, what if they want to cut their own hair short?"

"We definitely have to figure out a way to prevent that. Let's cause them a lot of pain if they try."

"Sounds good to me."

Yeah. The weird arbitrariness of this stuff is driven home by how a lot of magic isn't subject to such curses. It makes it seem less like arcane trade-offs to build wonders, and more like just wizards being assholes sometimes.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2014 08:21

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Zereth posted:

Is the hair-cutting thing intentional, or is it just a side effect nobody in the Wizard Cool Club felt like fixing?

I think it's left unaddressed, like so many other things. Sometimes magic is just awesome, and sometimes you have to eat dung to make it work. The fact that both kinds exist suggests that sometimes wizards just gently caress around.

# ¿ Nov 23, 2014 09:52

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

TheCenturion posted:

They're only supposed to hump mindslaves so they can compel them to execute male babies.

Sure, that's part of it. Still, the vast majority of thought the characters give it falters at the most easily solved part of the problem. Considering how magnetically attracted their genitals are, this hurdle should've been cleared long ago.

Edit: I mean, the primary reason they don't solve this very quickly, like most of their problems, is because the author doesn't want them to do it yet. The secondmost is because, as has been discussed, these idiots withhold vital information from each other constantly.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 13:32 on Nov 23, 2014

# ¿ Nov 23, 2014 13:28

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Elfface posted:

As for why Richard doesn't just off himself... I suppose Rahl is going to die anyway if he doesn't open a box, and he still might get lucky and open the super-powers box, or open the 'kill everything' box, so trying to stop him doing that is still a good idea.

Sure, but the only reason Richard and friends have any chance of doing anything but depriving Rahl of an informed choice is because they're fantasy protagonists. Which would be fine, except the book itself raises the practical issues all the time. The possibility that, hey, maybe some doofus from the backwoods isn't going to cross two subcontinents worth of land and fight his way through the militarily strongest country so far to kill the wizard-king? The fact that Zedd may be First Wizard, but Rahl is probably at least equally powerful and, oh yeah, that whole "owns the strongest kingdom and many of the federated other kingdoms, too?"

On top of that and Richard being a terrible Objectivist ubermensch, Dick Hider is a full-on embodiment of most of the worst fantasy protagonist clich�s. He's just some seclusionist, forest-dwelling yokel, but he frequently clowns more sophisticated and subtle people. He's this huge pacifist who only wants a peaceful world (and a Kahlan to gently caress), except when he isn't. He couldn't figure his way out of a mime's box, but he'll "cleverly" undo ancient, world-ending magic all day in the most contrived ways possible. He's no warrior, but thanks to his innate whatever-ness and magic sword, he is in fact Da Bes Warrur Evar. And that's just this book! It keeps getting worse as the series progresses.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 13:23

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Elfface posted:

Oh, yeah, they'd be much better off assembling a multi-racial team of warriors, wizards, archers and a gardener who followed them around to go capture the other boxes, but they're not here. We've just got Richard.

You know something? Why is it that these sorts of people always have to be saving the world from destruction. The actual 'one-man army big name fantasy heroes' like Conan or Elric are usually just saving a small part of it from some guy who's a jerk but isn't out to destroy everything. Even in LotR, Sauron wasn't out to destroy the world, just take over it.

I think shallower readers and authors think that this escalation is necessary to give stories more "oomph" _{and to try to hide their lovely writing}. What's better than something big? Something even bigger!

It's also something that ties back into many philosophies, but most appropriately here into Objectivism: The world is DOOOOOMED because it's not exactly the way I want it! Many of these stereotype fantasy books portray worlds that are actually doing a lot to accommodate the heroes' wishes. But it's not enough. So they have to make hard decisions. And, thanks to it being fiction, these assholes are the ones who transform through ~~fantasist wishing~~innate skill into the new kings of the freer-than-free market created after they ruined the old world.

Clich� fantasy story tropes actually have a lot in common with "real world" Objectivism/modern US libertarianism. Which I think says a lot about both.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 15:10

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Hodgepodge posted:

To be fair, Anthony has had sex (he has a kid after all), and once you find out why Darken Rahl hates women so much, you will wonder if Goodkind had yet when he wrote WFR.

In a forum I used to frequent long ago, one of the regulars apparently went to some con or something and met up with or won a chance to go to some party with Goodkind and his wife. There was the usual "nice in person" rigmarole, but despite that the rather traditional fan relating this story was still a little skeeved out when, in a party atmosphere, Goodkind would more than once hold forth in an authoritative way about how all men and women should act.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 19:42

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Some of the stuff above isn't in spoiler tags when maybe it should be? Not my thread, tho.

My favorite is whoever the "main" Mord-Sith is who becomes his bodyguard. Cara? She wears her pain dildo around her neck. Richard ~~freaks out~~asks mildly about how hosed up that is, and she's like "No, it's a symbol of my freedom." Because, I mean, I guess that's something someone could potentially "claim", but after he sets them free all the Mord-Sith are just like "Oh cool we're pretty much all fine now despite the constant sexual abuse that created and sustained us!"

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 21:17

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Libluini posted:

The really hosed up thing here is how the religion-thing later turns out to protect people from an evil, mind-bending magical Stalin invading their dreams, I poo poo you not.

Yeah, except doesn't it turn out later that just going "I'm on board with your 'not being conquered by anti-Objectivist Genghis Khan' plan" turns out to be enough?

# ¿ Nov 25, 2014 01:43

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

PeterWeller posted:

I only ever read WFR. How many books until the chicken-that-is-not-a-chicken?

One or two, I think. It's right at the beginning of whatever book it's in.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2014 22:46

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

DARKSEID DICK PICS posted:

I've been waiting the entire novel to use that one stupid loving pun, by the way.

This makes me glad.

Thanks for doing this! I hope you continue to torture yourself for our enjoyment.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2014 04:54

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

ProfessorCirno posted:

I guess my thing is, literally the entire book seems to be entirely pointless. Absolutely nothing that occurred at any point mattered. It all boiled down to the good guys losing in the end, but then they win, because the protagonist couldn't lie, but totally did anyways. I know the book already has countless flaws, but "is entirely pointless" wasn't one I sincerely saw coming.

That's pretty much a hallmark of the whole series. Something bad happens, people try to stop it, and then Richard pulls some random contrived solution out of his rear end that makes everything that came before largely meaningless. Sometimes "Richard pulls a contrived solution out of his rear end" is literally him just developing a brand new super power out of loving nowhere.

# ¿ Nov 27, 2014 13:34

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

TheCenturion posted:

I'm not sure that they ever bang again past that.

At least once more, and it's super hosed up.

(In fact, that the previous time "didn't count" is a plot point for the subsequent hosed uppedness.)

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 15:12 on Nov 27, 2014

# ¿ Nov 27, 2014 15:10

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Stallion Cabana posted:

what happened to Rick Roll's brother?

Executed as a traitor by Richard's order or maybe even own hands. Not because of his betrayal of Richard, who is above such things you see, but for betraying the people of Westland. Which includes Richard.

# ¿ Dec 5, 2014 08:22

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

DeusExMachinima posted:

How much worse?

Here are the two things that have stuck with me the most, of what has yet to be covered. Note, I stopped reading the series about (what ended up being) half-way through.

There is a loooooong sequence where Kahlan is thrown into some dungeon pit full of rapists. She never actually gets raped due to "smart talk" shenanigans and using her power on one of them. However, part of her "plan" apparently necessitates (graphically described) masturbation, acting like a slut to "trick" the rapists into thinking that they have to be nice to her so that she can make it good for them instead of resisting.

�and�

To solve the Apocalypse of the Week, Richard and Kahlan have to have sex with other people or something. OH WAIT! It's a magic trick, and she was enchanted into thinking she was loving $BadGuy when actually it was Richard all along. I can't remember if Richard is similarly tricked, but he sees through it in any case. Kahlan ends up vocally enjoying ~~Goodkind's~~her dub-con fantasy, and this pisses Richard off and makes him a mopey idiot who LEAVES FOREVER (until he comes back in the last chapter, which is only like two chapters later).

Kahlan is on her period at the time. It's lovingly rendered in prose.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 03:59

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

I even want to stress my non-kink-shaming stance: It's totally cool if somebody's into the red wings. Just, don't put all this graphic fetish poo poo, almost certainly as prurient shock porn and not genuine interest, in your alleged fantasy romp.

Of course, it is I the fool. Because what the gently caress did I expect after like four books of that nonsense?

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 04:53

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

TheSmilingJackal posted:

I read that as Kahlan bleeding because she had just lost her virginity, not because she was on her period. It's a thing in awful novels that have sex in them that a girl's first time makes her bleed all over the place when her hymen gets torn.

See? It's a completely different kind of awful.

I recall that it was set up and specified, but it's been a while.

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 12:47

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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 12:37

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

TheCenturion posted:

Yup, it was mentioned several times previous.

Hooray! I was right!

:smithicide:

# ¿ Dec 9, 2014 14:52

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > Let's Read the Sword of Truth books! (Or not. Can we not?)

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