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I heard it was atrocious, but it's one thing to read it, another to actually see it on my own eyes. Writing is already beyond bad. Sure thing, Garrett, pickpocketing tools for your associate while on a job can only end well for both of you. Why yes, fight on a goddamn rooftop for a loving grappling hook in the middle of the castle, just above a bunch of obviously evil cultists. Erin is completely unlikeable, Garrett feels like a teenager that desperately wants to prove himself better than her. Why those two have even been placed in one team? It's obvious they don't get along with each other and nothing on their way to the castle requires two thieves. They don't watch over each other, don't cooperate, most of the time they go separate ways. Also, no exploration, at least not in the prologue. It's like walking through a long, convoluted tunnel. There is one readable, so bland that I wonder why did they ever bother to write it. Overheard conversation were decent, though. Fabricated posted:Oh right, gently caress the jumping in this game. Garret seems to have a hard time deciding between "Jump this 3 foot gap" and "bunny hop off this ledge and fall 30 feet to my death". He leans very, very heavily toward the latter. An alternative explanation: Garrett is a tyrannosaurus.
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Nov 12, 2014 01:12
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ManlyGrunting posted:I'll be in the control group too, as I know nothing of the Thief games other than Shadlebridge Cradle is spooky-scary and Garret has a snarky streak. I wouldn't count on it.
We will definitely see her again.
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Nov 12, 2014 22:46
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evilmiera posted:Wait, why is there mention of a God and saints, I thought the city only ever had Hammerites and those green fellows? Dark Mod doesn't take place in the Thief universe - probably because someone else owns its IP, which could pose problems. The Builders took the place of the Hammerites here and they resemble Catholic church a lot more than its counterparts. They value honest work and have a big penchant for architecture and craft, but they are not inventors. High-tech equipment and infrastructure (like electrical lamps or steam mechines) are built and maintained by the fully secular Inventors' Guild. At least, these are the development team's official guidelines that can be found here. Of course, this varies depending of the mod author. Some venture pretty close to the original Hammerites and Pagans, others draw more heavily from the Catholic church instead. Some portrayals, unfortunately, go over the top and look like a Reddit fedora-wering atheist's worst nightmare. I remember a mission (otherwise, really enjoyable to play) where a bunch of inquisitors place a city hall under lockdown, accusing clerks of heresy one by one and executing them under flimsy pretenses, which wouldn't normally go well with civil authorities. Fortunately, most of the authors try not to overdo.
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Nov 13, 2014 21:42
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Cartheon posted:After watching the video, I'm surprised they didn't improve the AI enough to react to light sources going out. That is one thing Splinter Cell improved on. I never understood why the guards would stand around not noticing all of their light sources going out one by one. The AI will relight torches and oil lamps, but only those marked as important by the mapper and only if they are allowed to do it. They can also switch on electric lights. I think this feature didn't yet exist when "Tears of St. Lucia" were made. Gantolandon fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Nov 14, 2014 |
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Nov 14, 2014 07:14
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anilEhilated posted:I have a deadly serious question that makes or breaks whether I get TDM: does it have spiders? Yes. Actually there were one in the LP. Not every mission have spiders, though, and there is a page of the mod wiki which lists all available missions along with warnings if they have spiders or undead.
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Nov 14, 2014 15:25
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paragon1 posted:Yeah but Karras's poo poo was all incredibly recent inventions for which the richest people in the city paid dearly, and were the results of a guy so ingenious that he was able to become the (somewhat controversial) new prophet of his religion. You really don't find anything like that in Theif 1 that I recall (or Thief 3 for that matter). Electricity and steam power were commonplace in the first game. Electrical lighting and elevators could be encountered at least once per mission. I'm pretty sure the Hammers also used some primitive motion cameras in Cragscleft (the periscopes at the entrances to the cell blocks). The main problem with this stuff was that it was only produced and maintained by the Order of the Hammer, who were not particularly innovative or interested in giving their stuff away. This is how the Mechanists managed to take over most of their flock just after the split - by trading Karras' inventions for money and influence. I didn't like the way how Deadly Shadows pretty much reset the game world. Even if Karras turned out to be a heretic and a madman, I can't see the nobility and the Watch willingly resigning from using things that gave them an incredible edge. Zoig posted:Also everyone know the best secret lairs are the ones that are big obvious landmarks that people leave alone because "whoooo haunted!". It's not like people try to get other people to go to haunted places on dumb bets or something. Yes, that's pretty idiotic. Seriously, no one even got an idea that the "haunted" building may be, in fact, inhabited by someone? Have no one ever seen a suspicious guy, wearing a medieval version of a gimp suit, climbing over the walls into the clock tower? Actual workers are trying to repair the mechanism and no one managed to find an obviously occupied room? How did Garrett even get an idea that one of the best-known buildings in the entire city, visible to pretty much everyone and famous enough to regularly appear in newspapers, is a viable hideout?
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Nov 18, 2014 20:36
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Prenton posted:What was the stuff written on the crates at the end? Not only that. Things that will upset the guards that didn't bother them in Thief/Thief 2:
They will also relight torches and switch on electric lights. This, however, depends of the mapper, as is not turned on by default.
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Nov 21, 2014 00:09
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double nine posted:watching the videos in full screen helps a little. It's because sound ambience for System Shock 2 and old Thiefs were made by the same artist, Eric Brosius. His wife, Teri Brosius, voiced both SHODAN and Victoria.
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Nov 21, 2014 23:04
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Here comes amnesia, the most lazy and overused plot element in the history of video games. Sometimes it's used to just let the player discover a somewhat alien world which the character already interacted with. In other cases, it's a method lovely writers choose when the character should know something that would spoil the plot if revealed prematurely. Given what we know about the prologue, it's the latter. Also, I love how nonchalant everyone is about the fact that a thief disappeared for an entire year after a botched job and claims not to remember anything. Clearly there is nothing to worry at all, especially if you live in a medieval police state and you're a fence with contacts in the underworld. Garrett, I were sending you matchboxes with messages scrawled on the outside for the entire year! What happened to your companion - just kidding, I don't give a poo poo. Here's a high-profile job, because you're clearly up to the task. Hope you won't gently caress this up or bring a team of unlikeable guards into my doorstep. The encounter with the oldest goth in the City is even more hilarious, though. For a person who supposedly know everything about the City, she's very careful not to say anything meaningful that could clue the protagonist what the gently caress is going on. Garrett doesn't pry for answers, because why would he want to know more about the incident that killed his teammate and made him hallucinate for the entire year? Why is he completely apathetic about what happened to him? He watched a strange, clearly magical ritual that left him sick for an entire year and, just after this happened, the entire city is now suffering from a hallucinating plague that came out of nowhere. His teammate died, partially because of her stupidity, partially because her mentor stole her equipment in the middle of dangerous territory just to prove his point. No curiosity, no fear, no guilt. It's like if his predecessor just shrugged after losing his eye and spent an entire mission cutting purses.
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Nov 24, 2014 22:48
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Tehan posted:He probably would have if he didn't compulsively collect anything more valuable than a silver goblet. Don't forget the main goal of his mission in the Foundry is stealing a lovely ring which no one bothered to take off from its owner's corpse before cremation.
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Nov 25, 2014 18:31
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supermikhail posted:I don't understand the difficulty objection. The no-kill requirement does make the game harder, which is what the game promised. And I don't quite see how else you would enforce it except for auto-failing. Unless you switch to the stars (or other) grading system instead of difficulties. The main problem with those objectives is that they are an artificial way to circumvent a flaw in the game mechanics. Since the first game, blackjack is just to good in dispatching the enemies, to the point when you can clear the entire level and run unmolested by anyone. Take "La Banque Bienveillante", for example - this mission has a feature where you have to physically carry your loot to a specific place, but it becomes completely trivial after you discover you can just knock everyone out and rush through the entire level back and forth. It wasn't so obvious in TDP, because there were plenty of undead and other monsters that were immune to blackjack and required another tactics. Consecutive games made the problem more glaring, because there were comparatively more human enemies. At least the Watchers and Children of Karras required water/fire arrows to be disabled permanently, but they disappeared in the Deadly Shadows. As for the Dark Mod, they tried to deal with the problem by making blackjacking more difficult. It was nightmarish in the earlier versions, because the enemy would frequently hear you and look back just when you were about to hit him, which freaked him out instead of putting him out of the fight. The devs made it a bit easier in the latest version, but it's still much harder than in the original Thief, mostly because the guards will immediately become aware of you if you touch them. Also, the heavy armored enemies will make a huge ruckus when falling. Of course, the undead are fully immune to knockouts (which makes them popular in fan missions) and there is a guard with a special helmet who's only susceptible to gas arrows (I don't remember if such guards didn't appear in Deadly Shadows first). There are plenty of ways to nerf the blackjack right now, but they are somewhat underused and may not always fit the mood of the mission. supermikhail posted:I don't think this discussion is very relevant to Thief with modern gamedev technology. An achievement, and a badge, perhaps saying "Professional", on the post-mission screen, is enough incentive for those players who are interested. Or the old system could be just fine. I thought the consensus was that no-killing in Thief was a sign of professionalism, not morality and recognition of consequences. That's how Garrett explained it, but I always suspected he was just less jaded than he appeared. He was a guy who always tried to invent an elaborate excuse to every deed that could appear selfless. And there were occasions where his wall of cynicism pretty much cracked, especially after the events of the first game.
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Nov 28, 2014 17:43
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(Speaking of the original and the Mod, of course.) Additionally, (and per Bobbin's comment) there weren't any ways for the first 2 games to reward the player for non-lethal runs. No achievements, for example.
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HenryEx posted:I'd rather see the game give you more tools to split up / distract / lure guards away than let you knock out just a limited number of them. It has quite a lot. You can use a noisemaker, which ensures that every guard that could hear you will go into the place where you shot the arrow instead. You can also use a normal broadhead or a small item to make a noise. The problem is that everything that could lure away the guard also alerts him. Normally, it's too much hassle having to deal with a partially alerted guard whom you can just knock out without anyone noticing.
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Nov 29, 2014 12:25
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The Protagonist posted:I too am digging the hell out of the dark mod time this lp inspired in me. I just wish there was something I could do for the stability of it, get about 45 minutes out of the thing tops before I start getting graphical glitches followed shortly by a crash. Saving too often seems to accelerate the process. Have you checked you CPU and GPU temperatures? It sounds like this could be what's causing the problem.
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Nov 30, 2014 11:12
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The Protagonist posted:Not too much I can do about it I think, playing on a laptop. Open to suggestions though. There are some things you could do:
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Dec 1, 2014 00:50
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This plot really looks like it was written by someone who was a teenager during the 90s and mentally stayed there for some reason. Every positive character is a dark and brooding medieval goth, evil over the top antagonists, forced attempts to make everything memorable and cool using tropes that were cliché 20 years ago. The only element left is sprinkling everything with nudity to show that this is a mature game for serious players only, but given that there is a brothel level, we should see it soon enough.
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Dec 2, 2014 20:18
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:That aside, this looks like a fantastic mission that would fit in a published game. Organic goals, lots of secrets, really good textures and sounds, and lots of seedy history! I like how the writer gave a good sense of motive for a morally gray character who's trying to be good. Probably not the pinnacle of writing but its quite appreciable for a fan project. Only downside is that I think it needs a journal to fit all those pages though. (or Audio logs!) One more thing about this mission - Bobbin knocked out guards too fast to showcase it, but the guards here don't have static patrol routes. AIs switch between waypoints semi-randomly. This way a guard who patrols the courtyard can have a short break and go to the kitchen to grab something to eat, for example.
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Dec 5, 2014 00:06
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This mission was somewhat better than the previous ones, though not so much. It was sad to see Garrett trying to execute a bank heist to steal some flasks and pens. And who the hell rents a deposit box and puts there a cheap ring and a purse with maybe twice as much coin an average commoner carries on his belt?
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Dec 9, 2014 22:41
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Bar Crow posted:The best way to keep your fountain pens safe is to have so many desk drawers that thieves get too bored to find them. Hiding pens is more difficult than you imagine. On one hand, you want to leave empty as many drawers as you can, to maximize the chance that the thief picks one of them and finds nothing. You must remember that office items are territorial and prefer to have the entire container for themselves. More adventurous clerks sometimes risk putting two items in one drawer, but they do this at their own peril. Only safe wooden or metal walls are certain to prevent pens from touching each other, which would surely cause a disaster. This concludes our lesson. In the next week we will learn why cutlery should be stored in huge boxes full of metal bars and how to position them to avoid the chain reaction.
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Dec 10, 2014 00:43
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radintorov posted:Even death doesn't stop her from being annoying. Hey, what's not to like about a stereotypical goth thief with insufferable personality and mindless bloodlust, who secretly fawns over the main hero to the point she decorates her entire derelict mill secret hideout with his hand-drawn portraits? Sounds like a believable and fkeshed character!
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Dec 15, 2014 21:48
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Night10194 posted:Well, obviously, the Baron is being the Antagonist because of reasons and so Orion's job is to be the Vaguely Populist Resistance Guy who might later turn out to be evil to show us this is a hard hitting and cynical social commentary. Orion must be a swell guy, so many characters have told us so already! I really, really hope the authors are actually more clever than they appear and spare us the most obvious plot twists (Erin lives, Orion is evil), because otherwise it would be really sad. PlaceholderPigeon posted:They've done the age-old 'put you in medias res with a character they want you to like, have that character die/dissapear/get kidnapped and then act like there's a big motivation towards avenging/'rescuing/finding the character' thing. Except as mentioned above they dont even bother to make Erin likable. It wouldn't have worked even if Erin was actually likable. A short tutorial level is just not enough to build any meaning relationship between the characters. This should be a subtle thing that actually happens during the game, otherwise it seems shoehorned. Deus Ex does that well with all these characters in UNATCO HQ. Alex, Jamie, Sgt. Carter, even Janice Reed or that soldier receptionist who tries to cheer you up after Paul's failed mission. It worked to the point where I actually felt bad after going for Manderley and hearing his secretary exclaim "I thought we were like family!". None of these characters needed a section of the plot devoted only for them. Some actual positive interaction is enough. With Erin, she isn't presented as an actual human being. We don't have even a bit of normal interaction with her. She doesn't behave as a friend, romantic interest or a coworker. They seem to dislike each other and I don't get why Basso even sent them together on a dangerous mission. Guilt could have worked as a motivation, because Garrett pretty much killed her with his childish prank. He stole the tool which Erin heavily relied on in the middle of dangerous territory; of course it ended badly. Except that he never acknowledges it in any way, or shows any shreds of regret. He raised her and actually probably remembers her as someone else than a bully on meth. If he doesn't give a poo poo about causing her death, why should the player care?
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Dec 17, 2014 00:15
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To be fair for the author of the mission, its main problem is that there is no point not to blackjack everyone on our way and no knockout-resistant mobs would fit as guards of a small bank. Some helmets on those guys wouldn't hurt though.
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Dec 20, 2014 12:59
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So... the air is being constantly sprinkled with opium? Wouldn't that make everyone high as gently caress, including the prostitutes, the guards and the rare guests that just want sex without any drugs and rock&roll? Why would anyone do that, instead of just giving the guests pipes? How the hell no one overdosed yet?
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Dec 22, 2014 23:56
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FinalGamer posted:This. I don't agree with the notion that this game is even competent at what it does. Its sound system would be considered terrible even for an indie game and is simply unacceptable for an AAA title - and it still hasn't been patched, even though it's nearly a year since Thief 4 were out. This is an issue that becomes immediately obvious just after starting the game and they still didn't give enough poo poo to get it right. It's not even that they followed the standard recipe for a hit game, they just slapped together something that could pass away as an AAA game on screenshots and called it a day.
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Jan 7, 2015 18:12
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Yeah, I really don't get what Sotha was going on about with this one. I mean...it's an iron portcullis. It's a solid iron portcullis and all the windows are iron-barred and the reason you'd hire a burglar instead of a construction crew is because the burglar is a hell of a lot cheaper, especially considering the remote location and the surrounding swamp. From what I know, Sotha actually started making missions for TFM from the Beleguered Fence and made the Knighton Manor and Mandrasola later. It really shows, both in detail level and writing.
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Jan 10, 2015 22:01
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bhlaab posted:So until the thieftaker showed up, what was that level? They killed all of the guards with the fire so aside from picking up loot you just kind of walk to the places you're supposed to go uninhibited? That's the big climactic level inside the heavily fortified doom tower they've been leading up to up to this point? I know that "the tower is being exploded while you're in it!" sounds more exciting, but if you're making a game about sneaking around guards, wouldn't the interesting thing be to sneak into a greatly populated citadel instead of walking around an empty map while particle effects and prefab animations and sound effects do the heavy lifting?  This pretty much answers every question about Thi4f.
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Jan 16, 2015 23:15
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The asylum level looks like taken straight from Outlast.
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Jan 19, 2015 21:16
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Major_JF posted:That seemed like the perfect place for a noisemaker arrow. The problem with these arrows is that they ultimately draw every guard who can hear them in one place and send them into high alert level. It's a good choice when they stand on your way and you want them to piss off, so you can explore that place they guard. With only one guard in close quarters whom you ultimately want to knockout, it's not your best option. It's probably better to throw a few candlesticks around, which doesn't tend to upset the AI that much. As for the AI sensitivity - most likely it was supposed to discourage the player from immediately knocking down every guard on the map. It was a much nicer way to do this than knockout limits which I vehemently hate. Though the best thing they could do would be probably either nerf blackjack somewhat, or just give the player some incentives to actually leave guards alive.
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Jan 22, 2015 21:39
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Antistar01 posted:I know that's what I - and probably tons of people - expected after Thief 3's ending. Quality of T2X varies from mission to mission. Some of its content is good or even very good. On the other hand, some places pretty much radiate or sheer ridiculness. There is also an enormous brothel level that's slightly less stupid than the one in Thi4f.
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Jan 23, 2015 13:53
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anilEhilated posted:Also the writing is generally terrible if I'm remembering this correctly. It wasn't THAT bad. It could have been an average fanfic and actually was pretty decent for an unofficial mod for a video game. The thing that annoyed me the most, however, were half-serious readables which pretty much broke the suspension of disbelief. Like a Hammerite pamphlet which highlighted their tendency to pursue heretics a bit too much. The mod actually had some really nice work, like the briefing graphics (loved the one with Mechanists replacing Hammerite statues). Some of its maps are also a masterstroke - I can barely believe that they used the Dark Engine to do a map with the moving train and two stations, or the Hammerite attack on the smugglers' hideout. The main problem is that the good and bad content are sewn together with a very thick thread.
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Jan 23, 2015 17:53
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Mikl posted:I am unironically surprised that De Grenefeld did not turn out to be planning to double-cross Thomas Porter, since it's such a commonly used trope. It's nice to see something that goes against expectations On the other hand, the basement is probably the most obvious trap ever. I remember going through this mission and becoming increasingly alarmed after going through long, narrow stairs into a vast, dark series of rooms with multiple exit and having to light a fireplace able to illuminate most of the level. I expected to have an another showdown of the Lich Queen, though. It makes sense in the retrospect that the guards did find Thomas, because of that lit fireplace. The smoke had to go somewhere and the house haven't been inhabited by anyone since a long time ago. If you are a fugitive who wants to hide in an abandoned building, take a warm blanket with you It has to be said: Thomas Porter is a moron.
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Jan 29, 2015 22:22
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supermikhail posted:I want to report that in the Dark Mod guards just totally relit candle lamps in "Sneak and Destroy". I'm pretty sure I've seen them relight a torch on a different map, and, of course, there is not enough annoyance in the world for their electric-light relighting capabilities... Oh, yes, torch-relighting happened on "Accountant: A Noble Home" for me, I'm pretty sure. Yes. It has to be turned on by the mapper for individual guard and for each switch or torch that's supposed to be relit. As for electric lights, this functionality is relatively new, so you won't see this behavior on older maps.
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Jan 31, 2015 12:24
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Is there a 'getting real goddamn sick of this torch' behaviour where they dont relight it? Yes. I believe they give up if they have to relight it several times.
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Jan 31, 2015 13:16
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Discendo Vox posted:He's not a fugitive at that point. The work he was doing for the bookseller was aboveboard. The bookseller was murdered by someone. Where could the culprit hide?
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Jan 31, 2015 23:36
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LoonShia posted:Terri Brosius was the voice of SHODAN, correct? Also, Viktoria.
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Feb 4, 2015 19:47
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:To go along with the best chapter in Thi4f, allow me to present the best or second-best mission (I haven't played the last one yet) of the Thomas Porter series. Outside of the opening narration, anyway. Actually, random guard patrols were also a thing in In the North - but there were no knockout limit, so you never got the chance to observe them in action 
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Feb 6, 2015 20:27
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insanityv2 posted:Now that the graven dawn has been revealed, I feel like I should mention the reason my second playthrough was on easy was specifically so I could have free reign to headshot those fuckers and any civilian I overheard spouting that babble. Every time a revolution is portrayed in the media, the underlying message I'd that they are not that different from the people they fight. It's considered edgy and mature, as opposed to childish and naive anti-authoritarianism. If you believe it cannot be more hamfisted than in Thiaf, look at Bioshock Infinite where the revolutionaries murder children and people wearing glasses.
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Feb 7, 2015 18:04
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malkav11 posted:In Bioshock Infinite people continually overlook the part where you've gone through multiple alternate universes between the part where the revolution kicks off and the part where they've won. Which is to say, they're not the same revolutionaries anymore. The game heavily implies that the revolutionaries from the first universe are exactly the same, just they haven't won yet. Pvt.Scott posted:A revolution where people were killed for wearing glasses? Preposterous! I'm aware of that, it just wasn't subtle at all.
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Feb 7, 2015 21:08
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TomViolence posted:And as for revolutions, I'd love to see a game where the populist/socialist revolution isn't revealed in some clichéed twist to be just as bad as the established order, if only because it might cause people to think about something for once. Any student of history knows this poo poo always ends badly, but more because of flawed people than flawed ideas. And, christ, we don't know poo poo-all about Orion, so we can't even figure out whether the revolution's inevitable souring is down to him or just a critique on populist revolutions themselves, because the writers never gave a poo poo about doing anything beyond ticking the necessary boxes for "whatever's in this year." Actually, a lot of such revolutions ended up with the old guard abdicating and putting more likeable candidate on the throne, or just granting some minor concessions. July Revolution in France, for example, just changed the monarch from an ultra-reactionary to a more liberal one. The one that came after omitted the mass slaughter part and just created a Republic (which was couped several months later). In situations where the radicals murdered people too indiscriminately, support for them usually dropped and led to weird situations where moderate revolutionaries ganged up with the old order to put down their own revolt (like at the end of the Hussite Wars). My problem with revolution in games and other media is not that they are portrayed negatively, just that it's usually done in the laziest way possible. The revolutionaries are a Zerg-like mob, fighting with perfect unity and never questioning their orders. Their leaders are either corrupt fucks that use them for their own designs, or perpetually angry morons who can't speak without snarling and using words "blood" or "purge" every second sentence. They always fixate on murdering the protagonist, who usually is completely disinterested with the revolution and would be happy to leave them in power as long they don't bother them. The conservatives usually at least get a slightly different portrayal each time - the revolutionaries are always Caesar or rabid Robespierre leading the orcish horde.
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Feb 8, 2015 13:16
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:The fallibility of Garrett was one of the most compelling aspects of him as a character for me, but NuGarrett's teeth clenching Batman routine ruins it. He just stares blankly at the hand he's dealt, the most ridiculous and pathetic example being in the last video where he just sort of shuffles around mutely as the Baron rants, leads him into a elevator, and rids himself of Garrett without so much as a protest. Adam Jensen gets a similar treatment in Deus Ex: HR. It looks even worse there because he us supposedly a former SWAT member. Making their protagonists complete morons during cutscenes seems to be a SquareEnix thing.
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Feb 10, 2015 11:13
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Juvenalian.Satyr posted:The fallibility of Garrett was one of the most compelling aspects of him as a character for me, but NuGarrett's teeth clenching Batman routine ruins it. He just stares blankly at the hand he's dealt, the most ridiculous and pathetic example being in the last video where he just sort of shuffles around mutely as the Baron rants, leads him into a elevator, and rids himself of Garrett without so much as a protest. Adam Jensen gets a similar treatment in Deus Ex: HR. It looks even worse there because he us supposedly a former SWAT member. Making their protagonists complete morons during cutscenes seems to be a SquareEnix thing.
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Feb 10, 2015 11:13
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