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[level-up/re-spec post]  feel free to critique, cuz this probably isn't final. New stuff is in italics, or immediately following Aight, here's what Level 4 Sereia is gonna look like  Sereia Arlingfeld [link goes to fluff] Half-Elf STR DEX CON INT 08 WIS CHA HP: AC: Skill Proficiencies Class: Intimidation, Persuasion Race: Deception, Background: Acrobatics, Stealth Languages Race: Common, Elven, Dwarven Background: Undercommon, Gnomish Sorcerous Origin: Draconic Equipment Class: (a) a martial weapon and a shield Chain mail and a holy symbol [trading down to Studded Leather + 30 gp, holy symbol goes onto Shield] Background [Soldier]:
Divine Sense [1 + CHA = 3] Lay on Hands [10] Fighting Style [Mariner] Divine Smite Sorcerous Origins - Draconic Resilience - Chosen of the God [Cleric Domain: Life] - Bonus Proficiencies: Light Armor, Medium Armor, Shields, Simple Weapons Spellcasting Slots: [1st] [2nd] 3/3 Divine Favor Heroism Thunderous Smite Known: Sorcerer Shield Hold Person Enhance Ability Misty Step Cantrips: Sorcerer Chill Touch Message Ray of Frost Mage Hand Magic Initiate[Druid]: [0] Guidance [0] Druidcraft [1] Healing Word Domain [Life] Bless Cure Wounds Lesser Restoration Spiritual Weapon Sorcery Points: [4] Metamagic: Quickened Spell Twinned Spell Race Features Fey Ancestry: Advantage on saves vs. Charm, magic can't put you to sleep Darkvision: dim light = bright light up to 60ft, darkness = dim light Speed: 30 Bonus Feat Healer Level 4 Feat Magic Initiate[Druid] P.d0t fucked around with this message at 08:03 on Aug 18, 2015 |
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Aug 14, 2015 23:51
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Ryuujin posted:I think the wording is that you only ever get 1 use of it, but I am not entirely sure. But I will let you use your spellslots to cast it, at least for now and with Healing Word. I reserve the right to change it later though if I feel it is broken. It's probably not going to be unbalanced if a favored soul or cleric or what have you takes it to access healing word. Where it would fall apart is if a warlock took it to access goodberry, or even cure wounds I suppose for short rest chaining of a surprising amount of heals.
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Aug 15, 2015 03:11
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So I've been thinking about Lars' progression a bit and after level 5 unlocks my extra attack I'm thinking of branching off somewhere along these lines. 1: Spelless ranger 1- Favored enemy(human/dwarf), Natural explorer(grassland), 2: Spelless ranger 2- fighting style(archery) and 2 maneuvers(precision attack/maneuvering attack) 3: Spelless ranger 3- Poultices (wis mod in poultices that heal half ranger level rounded up in d6s healing) Take the hunter archetype and pick horde breaker as an attack. 4: Spelless ranger 4- Dex ASI 5: Spelless ranger 5- Extra atttack 6: Rogue 1- Expertise in stealth and survival, sneak attack at 1d6, and thieve's cant. 7: Rogue 2- Cunning action 8: Fighter 1- Fighting style(defense) and second wind(1d10+fighter level healing once per short rest) 9: Fighter 2- Action surge (one extra full action per short rest) 10 Rogue 3- Sneak attack increases to 2d6. Take the thief archetype which upgrades cunning action to include allow me to use the use an object action) and second story work which gives me my full speed as a climbing speed. 11: Rogue 4- Dex ASI to 20. 12: Rogue 5- Sneak attack increases to 3d6 and uncanny dodge(reaction to half the damage of an attack when I can see the attacker) 13: Rogue 6- Expertise in survival and animal handling 14: Rogue 7- Sneak attack increases to 4d6 and evasion(half damage from dex save AOEs no damage on a save.) 15: Rogue 8 Alert as a feat or Wis increase to 18. 16: Rogue 9- Sneak attack increase to 5d6 and thief grants advantage on all stealth checks when moving half speed. 17: Rogue 10: wis increase to 18/20 or alert as a feat. 18: Rogue 11 Sneak attack increases to 6d6 and all skill checks rolled below 10 that I have proficiency in are treated as a 10. 19: Rogue 12 Wis increase to 20 or alert. 20: Fighter 3 Champion I guess??? I might swap out the first 5 levels for fighter and take battlemaster to get mostly the same effect so that I could get into rogue levels faster but I'm flipflopping pretty hard about it.
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Aug 17, 2015 02:12
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The Lars shopping list for after we sort out our treasure exchange with the gear and such from Rivergard keep this isn't assuming anything magical we're offered so it'll probably change after we see the things on offer. Silvered shortsword for 125gp Handcrossbow 175gp  Crossbow bolt case x3 3gp Trade all but 20 of my arrows for 40 hand crossbow bolts, 10 of which are silvered 100 gp Alterations on the crossbow bolt cases so that they can be strapped to the body and opened/drawn from without gravity pulling them out(legs and chest) 10gp for the hell of it and some kind of attachment so Lars can hook his crossbow on his belt. Manacles x4 8gp 50' rope(silk) 10gp Healer's kit 5gp If I can't kill something that silvering doesn't bypass the DR of with 10 shots we're probably dead and with Sereia taking mending I don't have to worry about breakage  . I probably won't be able to afford it all haha but it's just stuff I'm thinking of for now, we'll see what I end up buying.Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Aug 18, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 08:28
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Regarding the merchant..quote:The image changes to a longsword. The guard looks almost as if it is crafted from gold, set with a ruby, the hilt looks a bit like wrought iron. The image almost seems to give off heat. Four is going with some different items, but I'm growing concerned about this adventure's disposition in tossing out mundane damage immune enemies this early in the campaign. It can - and if past adventures are any indication, will - continue the trend. In short, how hosed is my slashy man if he doesn't get this sword? If it's as bad as I fear, is there some method for Quilian to secure it? He doesn't have much besides raw money (about 400 gold atm) that's being saved for half-plate. Maybe it could be a reward from Zed given how well Four handled the keep/"utilized" his companions, naturally he would want Four's assets to be well geared for future use. We might want to do the same for Lars' bow. This all really depends on just how buggered we're going to be without magic weapons.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:05
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The oathbow is garbage long run  . I'd have to poke around to double check it though.Apparently they do! but I'll be buying a bunch of silvered ammunition so if we run into other were-things I'm good for a while. Oathbow effects
Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Aug 17, 2015 |
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Aug 17, 2015 23:14
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Lothire posted:Regarding the merchant.. Obviously from a player perspective "Quilian doesn't get to hurt the thing for nine rounds" doesn't sound particularly fun, so we rather obviously need to start thinking about upgrading Quilian and Lars with at least some kind of basic magic weapons. I've got a plan for that which might work out, we'll see how things go in the next few pages.
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Aug 17, 2015 23:23
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Keep it mind this isn't a "who gets to have fun" discussion, only a matter of what the adventure intends for us to have. My only concern is just how important are these upgrades, and if we're going to be forced to fight several enemies with basic damage immunity. It may be this is only a one time deal, but given the predisposition of published adventures, it's far more likely we'll be finding a lot more enemies with such immunities or resistances. In which case, the adventure may have intended for us to have magic weapons by now, but Ryuuj wanted to give us options. It's only a concern and I don't mind who gets what even if my concerns later prove valid, I'd simply rather we all be aware that these adventures have a tendency to utilize mundane damage immune/resistant enemies on the regular.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:04
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MonkE since we've been kind of respeccy this level you might look at changing Ursa into a draconic sorcerer. I'm pretty sure you've never actually used tides of chaos and it's really the only way to get consistent surges, if you're playing the wild mage you may as well try for those as often as possible. Swapping to dragon sorc is just pretty mechanically sound for Ursa. Just breaking down things for the levels we could potentially see. Wild Magic Level 1: Wildsurges Roll a d20 whenever you cast a level 1+ spell, on a 1 roll on the wild surge table. (Hasn't seen use) Tides of chaos: Advantage on any one attack, ability, or savings throw roll. This recharges when you wild surge naturally, long rest, or when the DM calls for you to roll directly on the wild surge table when you're casting a level 1+ spell. (Hasn't seen use) Level 6: Use your reaction and two sorcery points to add or subtract a d4 to another creature's attack, ability, or savings throw roll. Level 14: When you roll on the wild surge table roll twice and take the result you want. Draconic Magic Level 1: Learn draconic and expertise on charisma checks with dragons. Gain 1 extra hit point every level you take of sorcerer. (34 Hp this level) Your AC is also set to 13+dex when not wearing armor (ac 15 all the time) freeing up a spell slot you'd use casting mage armor and allowing you to drop mage armor from your known list entirely so that you could pick something else out. Level 6 Add your cha mod to any fire spells(Or whatever dragon type you'd take but really you have a theme going on ) damage you deal. When you deal fire damage you could spend 1 sorcery point to gain resistance to the damage type for an hour. Level 14: You get wings that you can summon or dismiss as a bonus action giving you your walking speed as a flight speed. If you're not leaning heavily into the surge mechanics as often as you can it's not particularly worth it for your build if you particularly care about that stuff haha. I don't wanna be That Guy but you may as well get some benefits out of your class archetype . If it's just a case of you forgetting about Tides of Chaos by all means please start popping it off every once in a while, there's nothing I love to see more than the crazy bullshit wild surges can bring to the table!
Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 03:06 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 02:17
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Trast since we were talking about it last night I did a really quick and dirty simulation that assumes the entirety of the guard are going after Darys. During combat the party is assumed to make all of their attacks while the guards fail any saves. Four: Sneak attacking based on pure density of enemies being next to Darys sneak attacking and poison with his longbow an average of 22 damage per round. Lars: Sharpshooting on main action, bonus action, and hordebreaker with poison damage an average of 28 damage per shot. Darys: An average of 16 damage with the dwarven thrower and 11 on his offhand attack. Ursa: Casting shatter each round dealing an average 13 damage to all in range, just saying roughly 3 for the purposes of this Sereia: When not casting healing word upcasting thunderwave for 11 damage to again roughly 3. Sacred flaming a target to damaged when healing wording. Quilian: Hunters Mark on a longbow shot allows him to deal on average 11 to a target collosus slayers Hail of thorns deals on average 10 with collosus slayer so we'll say that kills one lightly damaged by one of the casters. Round 1 Guards Initiative 40 guards attack Darys and only six hit which are all crits. Darys takes 56 damage (38 after HAM) dropping him. Round 1 Our Initiative: Sereia Healing words(3 first level slots remain), Darys second winds, and Imp applies healing potion to Darys. Darys heals 27 hp. Lars kills 3, Four kills 1, Darys kills 1 , Ursa kills 3(Shatter has 2 remaining level 2 slots), Quilian kills 2, Sereia damages one. Round 2 Guards Initiative: 29 guards attack: 3 crit and 1 hit. The guard who hit deals no damage because of HAM The crit guards deal 31 damage (22 after HAM) Bringing Darys down to 5hp. Round 2 Our Initiative: Imp applies a healing potion to Darys and heals him for 6 bringing him to 11hp. Lars kills 3, Four kills 1, Darys kills 2, Ursa kills 3, Quilian kills 2, Sereia kills 4(quickened sacred flame to finish off the guard she wounded last round and thunderwave as normal.) Round 3 Guards Initiative:14 remain: 1 crit 2 hits. Guards deal 19 damage (10 after HAM) leaving Darys at 1hp. Round 3 Our Initiative: Imp healing potion on Darys heals 9 bringing him up to 10hp. Lars Kills 2(I assume adjacent targets are running out at this point), Four kills 1, Darys Kills 2 action surges and kills 2 more , Ursa kills 2(target density is lower, Quilian kills 2, Sereia kills 2 (target density is lower.) Round 4 Guard Initiative: The last guard fails to hit Darys with an 11. Round 4 Our Initiative: Final guard is blasted to pieces by our Carebear stare. Alternatively for living this long we make him the party mascot. Actually rolling for our hits and such would obviously make this take longer , but we could totally do it if we had to  .
Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 06:58
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The damage on this is likely slightly higher than is accurate. Keep in mind that there are two limitations on poison (which is a non-trivial part of the damage): first, you need to spend an action to apply it, and second, it can only last for 1 minute before drying out on a melee weapon, or obviously until the three pieces of ammunition are fired. In my case I (perhaps predictably) have already engineered a solution to this problem but in your case you would need to take off every other round to 'reload', assuming three shots per round. Alternatively you would need to start the fight with a full spread of poisoned arrows which would be fortuitous but is unlikely. The other and likely more obvious problem to this is that assuming a grid, only eight swordsmen can engage Darys at any one point in time. Absent some incredibly well-planed choke-point positioning, it is unlikely that the remaining 30+ enemy soldiers will wait for their turn to enter the dwarven meat grinder. That means multiple fronts where sources of significant damage are likely to face unfortunate ends. I obviously haven't run the simulation but I would predict that if you accounted for that variable, Ursa and Quilian would drop in the first round, significantly lengthening the time to victory and creating a problematic hostage negotiation situation in the midst of it. Which isn't to steal your thunder, it's just ...there are practical elements to consider, sadly.
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Aug 21, 2015 07:14
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It's an entirely theoretical battle than hinges on the enemy single mindedly attacking one person while they're shot to bits by multiple attackers , it isn't intended to simulate an actual fight. If I'd actually rolled everyone's attacks the actual chance of us hitting with everything each round is comically low, we'd likely die in the first round if suddenly 40 guards popped into existence around us. Poison doesn't actually factor in to Lars or Four's final ability to kill as both have a damage higher than is needed to kill each target before poison is applied, if I hit a stock Guard with a sharpshot of any damage the +14 from sharpshooting kills them.
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Aug 21, 2015 07:57
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Sorry I think things are waiting on me at the moment to hide this crime. Will post tonight, I got distracted by a few steam games and other threads. I think the only question I have is whether this dwarf had all the keys on him or just the one to this room, as that will determine whether I make myself invisible and what I do with his body.
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Aug 22, 2015 00:00
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Ryuujin can we get an update? We're all agreeing to go after the Air Cultists but haven't had anything from you since the 28th. It's a Three day weekend in the USA so should be a decent to to grind some turns out.
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Sep 6, 2015 05:23
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Trast posted:Ryuujin can we get an update? We're all agreeing to go after the Air Cultists but haven't had anything from you since the 28th. It's a Three day weekend in the USA so should be a decent to to grind some turns out. It's a 3-day weekend in Canada, too, eh?  
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Sep 6, 2015 19:26
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P.d0t posted:It's a 3-day weekend in Canada, too, eh? I wasn't sure if Canada had a labor day being a socialist paradise already.
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Sep 7, 2015 06:32
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Okay going to do a roll call. Who is still in?
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Sep 17, 2015 07:32
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dis gal! Sereia Arlingfeld Although I'm kinda in the same boat as Lothire; if we wanna transplant the characters to another story/adventure, that'd be fine, too.
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Sep 17, 2015 07:40
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Sep 17, 2015 07:42
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In it for the long haul always. I at least want to get Quilian to level 8 for battlemaster fighter fun.
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Sep 17, 2015 07:44
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You have my axe.
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Sep 17, 2015 14:33
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And my hammer time.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:22
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I'm good to go didn't notice the thread was up and running again till now.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:34
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The Howling Hatred Cultists and Featherknight Society shenangians I've been collecting our thoughts on IRC, and I found few of us aren't really happy with the situation as it is. These guys very clearly attacked us however many days ago it was, and as players, we know they are likely the "air" variety of cultists. There's no way around that. We all played nice for as long as we could, but we got no reward in the form of in-game evidence as to what these people are up to or who they work for. Nothing concrete, anyways. While the Manticore hunt was a neat side-attraction - and Four did manage to find a note that is suggestive - we are left feeling like we're being given no reward for our investigation skills. Ryuujin has done well in giving us outside-the-game tidbits (Savra is a quest character, for example, but one we can't do anything with her yet), but we are still stuck with a very basic question: Knowing what we know, do we kill these guys or not? Four has set himself up for some tactical espionage action, and I'd prefer not to mess that up. As well, I want to play Quilian as being very suspicious of these people. As such, I'd like to facilitate Four's current play in assassinating this Lord individual. However, I want to fight. At this point I don't think we're off from the notion that these people are cultists, since we have been attacked by these very people earlier, and we are indeed here to destroy them all. If we are somehow wrong (I really do doubt this), I'm willing to play out whatever happens after that. It might be a stretch for some of our characters, though I believe the idea that they are cultists is probably enough for them to go in this direction. Ultimately, it's a bit difficult to decide comfortably, but I fear we may be hitting a stalling point. So my current suggested action is this: We spend another night in the tower. Four acts out his plan, and if there's a bunch of noise or an alarm goes off, etc, we all get to start fighting some knights. At the end of the day, we're here to do that - fight stuff. This seems a nice way of going about fighting stuff for us. We keep the Lord (maybe some others) alive for real questioning, and then move onto the Sacred Stone Monks place. Lothire fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Sep 30, 2015 |
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Sep 30, 2015 20:51
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Lothire posted:The Howling Hatred Cultists and Featherknight Society shenangians I'm fine with this. Darys tried to provoke a response already and didn't get anywhere. Now there is even more evidence that these people aren't right.
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Sep 30, 2015 21:13
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Ryuujin posted:On the desk, in a cylindrical leather case, is a letter to Thurl Merosska from Aerisi Kalinoth. Just to play devil's advocate or whatever, but all this says is: Feathergale dudes pwned Black Earth cultists (who we uncovered in red larch) and that those cultists had some prisoners, of which the FK recovered one. I assume these prisoners were the delegation, just based on the context of the battleground we found. So FKs don't like Black Earth, or Sacred Stone peeps. And FKs also have access to a person we're trying to get access to. Basically all this says to me, is if we kill all the FKs, the trail probably goes cold, whereas if we go gently caress up the guys they want us to gently caress up, then we earn their favour some more, and possibly gain progress towards other quests we're already on. There's also enough reasonable doubt w/r/t the whole thing of them attacking us; perhaps they were just ordered to kill anyone approaching the site, or, the meta answer it was just another random encounter. It's pretty clear if they had any intention on killing us, they've passed up plenty of opportunities to do so (attacking Lars in a narrow spiral staircase, for example, would have been tactically sound.) My $0.02 is to go  investigate the Sacred Stone guys, and then investigate the FKs once they outlive their usefulness. If I'm not mistaken, some hints were dropped at the Sumber Hills or some poo poo, that we should be looking into the monastery, so might as well follow up on that, finally.
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Sep 30, 2015 21:32
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Trast posted:I have no idea how it would work or be described in game mechanics but I feel like Darys would challenge some of the knights to a drink contest and drink them under the able while not getting so drunk as to be unable to help the others. You know, a typical dwarf night on the town. Yeah as far as mechanics, it's pretty much up to the DM. IME, drinking contests usually involve CON saves (or FORT for 3.5/4e) Dwarven poison resistance could play in, but again that's a DM's call.
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Oct 5, 2015 06:03
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DM Issues When Ryuujin started running Pota, he wanted us to make it through the entire adventure. It was stated as the campaign's objective, where the goal was simply to explore and advance in the adventure all the way through, up into the high levels it provides (believe 15). However, it is becoming overwhelmingly difficult for him to do so, as we are constantly piling on a great deal of things that are not being considered by the book. Ryuujin has tried to keep up, but he is overwhelmed with the amount of stuff we can come up with, and is no longer having fun DMing. I managed to wrangle out some good discussion, and we have come to settle on a number of things that require discussion! Some of this is related to our in-game actions, some of it is story related (spoilers even), others are related to character building. In the end, what we need is input from the players on how to proceed. We need to make changes, or else this game gets to sleep with all the other dead pbp threads! Issue: Feathergale Spire - Are they cultists? Did we gently caress up? Spoiler city here, but if you're playing, please read on.. Did we gently caress up?! Yes and no. In the book, those at the Feathergale Spire are not all cultists. Thul, the Lord Commander, is a member of some air cult that attacked us earlier in the game, while everyone underneath him are largely unaware and are just there to enjoy a hunting society of some sort. Savra, a side character that we know literally nothing about in-character, is a figure that is being controlled by said cultists. We can free her later, but only later, and not now, because it's a published adventure, it does what it wants. gently caress man, Thul doesn't event really like his air cultist queen. I don't even get it. We attacked them, which made sense to us, because THEY attacked US FIRST. gently caress them. Well, the adventure didn't mean for us to tell them to get hosed. The adventure meant for us to forgive and forget. Or, murder them the moment we said hello. We did not do either of those - we played nice, and went along as if we were happy. Ryuujin thought that was what we wanted, thought we forgave and forgot, and he did what he could to enforce that. In the end, we got no clues about their involvement with the cults, which meant we had to turn a big 180 at the last moment in order to get our revenge that we always wanted from the start, and was just biding our time for clues until then. This confused Ryuujin, because he thought we had gotten past all that. We hadn't, and it made things hard for him to deliberate how things were suppose to go for us. This problem stemmed from us loving up the timeline, basically. Doing the Reavers at the Keep first was wrong, and it threw a little bit of a wrench into the works. We were suppose to do these guys first. That wrench created a bigger problem for us now, which is another layer of confusion for our DM to work through. We talked it over in IRC, and he gets it now. However, we are still faced with a big dilemma. The way Four is killing Thul. Poison, and just gaming the system like god drat We are killing things way too well. Way too well. Those air cultists that attacked us? ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO DIE! BUT THEY DID! We killed them, and it buggered the adventure like some lovely skyrim mod. Created a temporal anomaly in our star trek reference. How did we kill them so well? Because Four is really drat good at building casters, and there is some insane synergy going on with Lars that is causing him to murder. Hell, even alone Lars murders. Quilian can murder, if given the right stuff, but I haven't been playing him optimally. Also, and only just recently has this been an issue, Poison. Right now Four is murdering Thul in his bed by writing a god drat college thesis. Stealing monster spell components, setting tacts, locking doors, hiding any possible weapons, poison upon poison (an evil act? who knows anymore), each one swapped out for a different poison should something in the flow chart not add up, combined with stealth stabs because he's falling asleep to a maybe-poison-if-it-doesn't-crit while a familiar drops oil and a match on his bed. Ryuujin just about closed the game right there, but he kept it going because we asked him to stick with it. He tackled it, but the response was yet more mechanical talk that he could not at all process. Four's magic has been insanely helpful in getting us through the levels. Now? All of us are coming into our own, and the power gap between monster and players is drastic. This isn't just Four's doing, all of us are getting into The Good Times for our classes, while Four will gain a whole new section of narrative power thanks to spells. Challenge is non-existent with the way things are, and Ryuujin once again finds himself wondering "why am I bothering with this again?" He's having no fun with the monsters, knowing they pose no challenge, that is if we even fight them to begin with. Because, you see, spells, but also? We're just built to kill. This is not Four's fault for being a caster with the Right Spells, or a player with a seriously deep grasp of system mechanics. This isn't Lars fault for being a death machine with a bow even before poison is thrown in. This is no one's fault but the adventure. It simply is not equipped to give a challenge to this level of D&D. That lack of challenge makes Dawnfiend bored as gently caress, and so, he goes and creates a bunch of cool poo poo that we love reading about, but completely exists OUTSIDE the realm of the adventure, growing that gap in power ever further. Having a small army and a caravan wagon thing? Jerking off his imp for poisons? Way not covered by the adventure, and is killing our DM, which means it's killing our game. The gently caress do we do? We gotta make choices. These are suggestions I have, and they got some response in IRC. Give me a response here, and we can see about collecting our DM's brain matter off the walls and back into his head pan. - No poison. Poison is out. No more imp cum. We're doing too much offensive damage as it stands, and Poison is poised to make things even more insane. Stop jerking off poison imps! Darys hasn't even hit anything yet and it's all dying! - No more going outside the adventure. Selling off wereboars for magical loot, collecting thugs and hirelings, we can't be doin' with this anymore. RP is fine, but we can't be using it to gain yet more things that the adventure is not prepared to account for. No more complete global saturation. - We need to address our actions with these feathergale spire people. Now that we know what the adventure book says, we need to decide: Kill or Leave? Once we settle on that, we need to figure out what we do about right now, as Four is in the middle of some serious poo poo and Ryuujin does not know how to resolve it. I'm inclined to rewind the tape, but we need to settle on what we're doing first so that we don't gently caress it all up again. - The way spells work. Ryuujin relies on the adventure working as is written, and spells can and will cause things to just happen that break the game. In these cases, Ryuujin simply needs to say "No, that doesn't happen." This invalidates a lot of spells with narrative control. Like, all of them. He may still allow some at some points, but he is far too tired of doing mental leaps to make ends meet in this game. This heavily impacts Four's current build, as he is entirely focused on gaining the best spells which drive the narrative. This isn't just for spells, either - I've had this happen to my stealth check once already in the game that almost lead to a party wipe, and while it sucked, he felt it necessary to keep the game going. I'm still playing because gently caress it, I don't need everything to go my way to have a good time. If I can't handle that, I can always bow out. - It needs to be made clear that Ryuujin is running this game. If he says there are no material components for you to steal, then you ain't stealin' 'em. If poo poo works one way in the book and he needs it to work another way, then it works however he needs it to. The adventure didn't mean for you to do something, then he has to enforce what the adventure dictates. In a lot of ways, that sucks rear end, but we all agreed to these terms when we signed up. Please think of your DM and his sanity. Nobody is at fault (but Four), nobody is to blame (but Four), and sure as gently caress nobody did anything wrong (I'm kidding, Four is simply strong by game design, that isn't wrong nor is it Dawnfiend's fault for making a great/interesting character). This is simply a game that is getting out of control with the power scaling, and Ryuujin needs help wrangling in all back in so that he's having fun sending monsters our way. Your help is the only way that gets done, because as we level up, it will only get more disgusting. Or all this closes down, he gets some well deserved sleep, and I don't get to play my fuckin' Ranger. If these changes rob you of all joy, I feel you, and I blame no one for bowing out of a game they won't enjoy. Ryuujin gotta pay This isn't all about us and our power gaming ways. Ryuujin, we need you to post more. I'm not demanding anything unreasonable, and I know the recent issues is why you're staying away, but I want us to get back to how things were. At least once a day post being the goal. Do whatever it is you need to do to get us back in line, reset our recent encounter with the Spire if that's what it takes, I do not care how you want to go about it - I just want to keep the game alive, to stop the poo poo that's making you dread opening the game thread, and to see new posts. I want us to be the one 5e game that makes it to the higher levels. Lothire fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 09:05
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For my own part, I am always happy to have a discussion on any points of contention, and to make amendments as necessary, but here are some thoughts to add to the discussion: Power level I think this is the real area of concern, but not for the reasons listed. Here's the reality: if we as a group are having trouble adjudicating (and 'not being challenged') when we have access to first level spells, I don't believe this game will be able to withstand anyone casting third level spells, let alone fifth or sixth level spells. If the plan is to take this game to 15th level, I think the rest of you need to admit something here and now, which is this: the players are really only going to be allowed to play martial classes. Even in a group comprised entirely of martial classes, the other issue is that when people use always-available options such as stealth, tactical planning, and a dose of common sense, that martial group is going to be a freight train that can't be stopped, but that's a separate issue. Combat Here's the separate issue, which is this: combat isn't a challenge for the players in this game, and I do not expect it will be, regardless of the classes we are playing. I am 99% confident I can play any class Ryuujin wants me to play, and I am still going to trivialize every fight we run into by virtue of knowing what I am doing. Even if you remove me from the equation, the rest of the group is still going to be the aforementioned freight train. This is a problem that isn't going away. Spellcasting (and material components) I didn't make my more recent post coming from the perspective of "the book says this so you have to do it." I fully appreciate that the DM can (and should) be making judgment calls about what is and isn't available to be interacted with. The context of my post on that subject was more focused, and it was this: whether you like it or not, magic is the only mechanic in the game that matters. If you don't understand precisely how it works, either as a player or as a DM, you're at a significant disadvantage (to the point of not actually being able to meaningfully interact with the game at all). As the only mechanic in the game that matters, if you are going to change how magic works, that is also a house rule, which generally should be explained to players in advance. If NPC's (or even PC's as well) don't have to worry about somatic, verbal, or material components of spells, that is a major buff to spellcasters of all stripes for precisely the reason it has come up right now (i.e., you either are or are not vulnerable to being immediately crippled the moment you lose your arcane focus). This is also, by the way, entirely the purpose of archetypes like the thief and arcane trickster, who can pickpocket as a bonus action. I appreciate that it adds more complexity to the game, but it also happens to be the sort of thing that makes it an actual game. What game are we playing? Which leads to the final question, which is probably the most important one, being: what game are we playing? I think that segues into two questions, that the DM and every player should answer, which are: > What are you getting out of the game that you do enjoy?; and > What are you getting out of the game that you do not enjoy? I was under the impression it was a sandbox module, going in, and it is becoming clear that it isn't. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it also isn't how the game was billed. I honestly get the feeling that the preferred method of running this game is copying the box text from the book, and moving from room to room, without any expectation of otherwise meaningfully interacting with the game world. For my own part, I don't really consider that a game, as much as I consider it a random number generator with a thin fantasy wrapper around it, but I can work with that. However, the issue with that approach is the one described above: that sort of game relies heavily on combat, which, as you might have noticed, this group is good at. We are, with absolute certainty, not going to be challenged by combat as a group. As a result, combat is not a meaningful part of this game. If combat is also the only part of this game, is it actually a game? Waador fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 15:53
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That is a lot of stuff to digest and many good points. I'll try to come at it from my own end first. Darys is a homebrew meant to test some things to improve the fighter class. That was made clear in the beginning. But the way the encounters seem to be designed has been really frustrating. He usually has to spend two to three rounds just moving and dashing to get in range of the enemy. By then the rest of the party who are strong in ranged combat have crushed most of the mobs. Lars is straight up PHB and he's immensely powerful. Quilian is also straight PHB and even if ranger isn't considered a top class Lothire still knows how to maximize things and he's able to do considerable damage. ADP and Lothire aren't to blame for that. They are playing the characters they apped. However starting fights closer to the enemy would be helpful from my perspective. Character wise I've been playing Darys straight up without much intrigue. He's a dwarf out to make money and fight things. You know, a dwarf. He's there to brawl and have a good time. Mechanically since he is a home brew experiment I've always been open to tweaking him as things move along. There is the potential for the changes to be very powerful. I already made the decision to drop his damage dice increase to something lower before the game even started. Ryuujin is playing a two handed version of the homebrew in another game and when you combine it with the homebrew race he has the changes are outright devastating to enemies. In regards to how to get things back on track I have a thought or two. Since the order of events we've done is contributing to the disconnect perhaps a soft reset is in order. But instead of redoing the Air Tower and the Water Keep how about jumping a little ahead to get clear of the triggers and narrative we jumbled? Jump ahead to level five or six and then give everyone a basic primer about what we would have done. Perhaps we discuss our options in OOC and make a group vote and that is how the past gets set. A lot of game series have a mechanic like that where you're given a choice to choose your course through events that normally would have taken a playthrough of a previous game. For example for the Air Tower we get presented a choice of A. Playing along B. Murderhobo or C. Something else. That informs the DM as to how the following events play out. That way we're not going over content again and not losing progress. Plus we get a jump in levels and exposure to the new stuff that often you don't see in games because stuff happens. Waador brings up a very valid point about encounter difficulty though. I'm probably the least experienced table top player in the bunch. But playing PBP and having you guys around for advice is a pretty decent education. I've gotten into the habit of using cover, stealthing, being more creative with my skill checks, etc. The rest of you are very experienced when it comes to creative application of the rules and abilities. The encounters in this module don't seem to be designed with that in mind, more so for completely new people. So if there are ways to toughen up encounters it could help bring a challenge.
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Oct 9, 2015 18:37
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Waador posted:For my own part, I am always happy to have a discussion on any points of contention, and to make amendments as necessary, but here are some thoughts to add to the discussion:
b) If we were all martial scrubs and the monsters increasingly weren't, suddenly you've turned the pyramid upside down. I mean, I personally chalk this up to 5e's design; there's a reason there are no full casters allowed in Correggio. Waador posted:Spellcasting (and material components) The thing with all this, again, speaks to design. Like, the combat is meant to basically run in some sort of War of 1812 milieu where we all line up at the appointed time and place, and then take turns firing at each other. 5e doesn't handle surprise or stealth very well, so when we take things to its next logical step and start murdering people in their sleep, combat's both considerably easier but also severely divorced from the intentions of how it's meant to work, at all. They wrote a bunch of cool spells and (as Crawford has stated in at least one interview) wrote adventures that are focused on story. No thought was given to how the mechanics would actually impact the game. So while everything we've done conforms to mechanics (without having to squint too hard), it's clear to me that the adventure itself gave no consideration to any above-average to high level of system mastery, on the part of the players. This is a feature to some, because ~the DM can fix it~ which of course leads to Ryuu's current level of burnout. Gripes All that said, I'm largely divorced from the actual toll this all is taking; I'm fine with sitting back and letting intricate plans unfold. What I don't like:
Not being able to really play the build I had intended from the get-go was softened by the realization that melee builds don't get into the action as fast as they need to... only to then find ourselves in a spiralling tower with lots of cramped spaces where melee would be perfect  I probably should have raised this issue as soon as Doji dropped, and asked Ryuu to recruit someone else, but the game was flowing fine at the time, so I didn't want to break up everyone else' fun times for that.
We went to the keep before the tower with the metagame knowledge that Ryuu's party had a rough go of it in the tower, and with the idea that we could do things in any order, which, it's seeming to not be the case.
 posts where we sit around and talk about our feelings. The game's context might be irrelevant to the inner workings of the characters, but stuff needs to be happening around us, to keep the characters going somewhere.In another corner, there's Waador and ADP; the characters are built around "how can I win the game, in the fewest moves?" with the caveat for Lars being that ADP self-nerfed by not playing a spellcaster, wanting to see how far the boundaries could be pushed. Lars trivializes combat, but he doesn't have any magical buttons to push that trivialize Social or Exploration beats; if nothing else, the narrowness of his specialization should be something the DM can at least factor in, with some level of ease. Conversely, Four just has an answer for everything, because... that's what he's built to do. And in the third corner are Trast and MonkE; I think it would be fair to say they're here to smash faces and blow stuff up, respectively, and are here with the thought that building their characters around combat would be a valid and supported (and useful) choice to make, going into the adventure. So if, as Waador says, combat has become a non-thing in this game, I have to assume these two players would be the least satisfied with that development/the direction the adventure is continuing to go, and that's lovely. I however stand, ready to be corrected. In conclusion... I guess my conclusion is basically that 5e is billed as a game that will cater to all of us, and it clearly isn't. The system is getting in the way of the DM running the module the way the module is intended to be run (thanks, Mearls!  ) and so most of us are only ever half-getting what we want out of it, with (arguably) Ryuu having the least fun of anyone, which is pretty much the shittiest possible outcome in this genre/format of gaming.
P.d0t fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Oct 9, 2015 |
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Oct 9, 2015 18:39
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Trast posted:In regards to how to get things back on track I have a thought or two. Since the order of events we've done is contributing to the disconnect perhaps a soft reset is in order. But instead of redoing the Air Tower and the Water Keep how about jumping a little ahead to get clear of the triggers and narrative we jumbled? Jump ahead to level five or six and then give everyone a basic primer about what we would have done. BTW, if we end up continuing on, I'd be pretty ok with this resolution.
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Oct 9, 2015 18:43
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I'm sure Ryuujin appreciates all of this, and I agree with a great deal of these points and suggestions. As a player (and almost perfectly as pd0t has laid out why), it is easy for me to just say "scrap the rear end in a top hat spells, stop using poison, play straight." I'm a martial and that's basically how I've been playing the game this whole time. We will still kill poo poo, but at least Ryuujin won't have to keep coming up with weird poo poo to counter invisibility, or handling the selling of werebear people for magic items we weren't suppose to have (yet, apparently Darys hammer does show up in the game). Soft Reset That is a good resolution option that I can support. We end our interaction with the spire in one of two ways; we killed them all, or walked onto their suggested target, and continue from there. Now that we know just where the gently caress-up lies, that makes it a great deal easier to tell just what was happening to cause such insane confusion. Sereia I flat out don't want a healer at this point because no one is interested in the classes that do it. Being forced to play what you DO NOT WANT is lovely, and should never, ever happen in the glorious year of 2015. Let's get Sereia into something you want to play. Ignore healing. We will deal with it as we go, and it will certainly make combat more interesting. If you can't find a class that's enjoyable to play no one can blame you for bowing out. We all know 5e just isn't getting the job done for a lot of people in a lot of respects. What game are we playing? I come down heavy on spells and it is entirely unfair, but it is equally undeniably the reason for Ryuujin's headaches. An invisible Four does anything he wants, leading to essays about how he's going to kill one person in his sleep with a variety of poison, who he then plans to assume the identify of so he can command the spire people to attack other cultists. He just does these things either because spells, or because Ryuujin is trying to come up with ways of allowing it all so he can facilitate your player enjoyment, but it's hit the breaking point. We knew it was coming. Now, we have to deal with it. If our DM is not able to cope, then the game dies. This is our opportunity to help him cope. The game may not have been billed as clearly as it ought to have, now that I re-read the recruitment threadss starting pages. So let's make it clear now, and if it's not a game for you, I can do nothing but apologize on his behalf: The game is about the adventure. We stay away from doing things that the book doesn't account for. It really isn't a tall order for most of us, because we are having a good time just going through the motions.
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Oct 9, 2015 19:26
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Speaking of magic items We have a few things that are really good, but other than one of 'em, I don't think are all that game breaking. Darys has a hammer he'd get eventually later on, and it will help should we run into any more damage resistant things. This becomes more-so depending on how things go from here, if we lose people due to game changes, and so forth. The Deck Of Many Things is the only thing that is insane to have, and we should retcon that out of the game. Alternatively, wiping the slate clean of magic items and granting us all one Uncommon thing is an idea Trast has put forth, and sounds like another reasonable option. I personally don't mind either one, as I don't find our current magic items all that impacting. Even Darys having a Very Rare item is not going to shatter anything, but it is going to be contributing to the We Kill poo poo Fast issue. However, I am certain that issue is something we cannot easily resolve without spending weeks re-tweaking the game. Also, I don't think we mind at all steam rolling poo poo, so long as we are fighting and acting within' the boundaries of the adventure. Who knows, we may end up in a similar scenario that we did with the big fight at the Keep.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:22
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I was writing up a large post addressing every point raised but it wasn't coming together particularly coherently so eh, the rough idea is basically I wouldn't be happy playing in a game with all the "fixes" and since it seems the majority are leaning that way I'm just going to bow out. Lars overcome with guilt about being a filthy poisoning murderer throws himself from the roof or something.
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Oct 9, 2015 21:31
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I was actually going to see about coming back now that my life is back in order, but it looks like there might be no game to come back to. 
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Oct 10, 2015 01:30
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So, I think I have two opinions on this, being: > If it's an issue of specific spells, or class abilities, or whatever, that's fine, I don't have any problem changing things up to simplify the bookkeeping for the DM. There are dozens of playable builds and most of them are reasonably fun. > If it's an issue of this not actually being a roleplaying game, but a choose your own adventure, where only one or two courses of action are actually allowed, I have significantly less interest in being a part of that. That said, if Ryuujin just generally doesn't want to run the game past level 4, where spells actually start to, you know, happen, that's another matter.
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Oct 10, 2015 01:59
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Waador posted:> If it's an issue of this not actually being a roleplaying game, but a choose your own adventure, where only one or two courses of action are actually allowed, I have significantly less interest in being a part of that. : "I have some bad news for you!"
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Oct 10, 2015 02:32
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Okay time to respond to some stuff. I am sad to hear A Darker Porpoise is thinking of leaving. If that is what you want to do then that is fine, but if what I have to say doesn't turn you off you are free to stay. I am going to try and keep the game going. I would like it if people maybe toned down the poison use, I think I am going to rule that hitting with a poisoned weapon uses up the poison and it needs to be reapplied with an action, or maybe a Thief Quick Hands bonus action? I am just going to move past the tower, at most you are going to either leave in peace or kill everyone and at the moment I don't want to stall here. I will instead fast forward to you arriving at the Stone Monk Monastery place. If Dr. Doji Suave wants to bring Khidash back I am sure P.d0t would like to go back toward a less healy build. I was thinking of removing the Deck of Many Things because no one has used it and I worry about Four's plans for it. But uh apparently his plan is to take the face of Thurl, lead this cult, and force them to draw from the Deck then kill anyone who gets something good and steal whatever they got. . . . Yeah apparently the whole reason he is doing this secret assassination thing is because of the Deck. When it comes to whether the game is a sandbox game or not . . . well the game makes it seem like you have some freedom, and early on in the 1-3 stuff you could more or less do them in any order. And you could theoretically do the other stuff in any order, except these keeps kind of assume certain levels and expect you to gain a level after each keep or so. I mean you DID do the water keep before the air keep so there is that. So yes you could do them in different orders, it just might be dangerous. Not that you care because you are breaking everything over your knees.
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Oct 10, 2015 03:25
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I'd be fine with continuing if the game seemed to have any plot aside from Goto point A Murder/Infiltrate repeat at Point B but as Waador points out-quote:> If it's an issue of this not actually being a roleplaying game, but a choose your own adventure, where only one or two courses of action are actually allowed, I have significantly less interest in being a part of that. -from the little bit of reading I've done about the basic structure of the module it does seem it's basically just a pile of combat zones strung together with little else of consequence fitting the above qualification to a tee. So as much fun as I'm having on the role-playing side of things, things aren't going to get better on my end as it seems to just be one long combat slog and combat isn't being adjusted for a group that is likely larger than the suggested size for the adventure or for something as particularly hard hitting as our crew. So yeah I'll be departing either way I think. If the game should continue the departure of Lars will tone combat difficulty up quite a bit and if Doji is swinging back in that'll allow pd0t to retweak Sereia in a less heal focused direction. Successful Businessmanga fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Oct 10, 2015 |
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Oct 10, 2015 03:58
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