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I don't like the term "moral injury" because it's awkward , cumbersome, and doesn't quite convey the idea it's meant to. But it's the term in use today, so we work with it.quote:WHAT IS MORAL INJURY? That's "our" definition (Syracuse University). There is no official definition. The VA has published a few research articles on moral injury that do a great job to offer a similar perspective. quote:What is moral injury? Big point here: Moral injury is *not* PTSD. PTSD is diagnosed in a doctor's office, has a DSM-V listing, exhibits symptoms & requires clinical / therapeutic response. It is a medical condition. Moral Injury is nebulous and nobody has nailed the idea just yet, but a few authors have described it well within specific contexts, like Jon Shay who wrote Achilles in Vietnam, received a MacArthur "genius" fellowship", and is widely consider the originator of the "moral injury" term itself. He also pushed for differentiation between PTSD and moral injury. For those of us young-uns, the GWOT generation, and probably the Vietnam folks as well, we can identify with the "aftermaths" from that VA research paper-- quote:What is the aftermath of moral injury? Why the gently caress am I talking about it? In 2014 I was invited to serve on a discussion group at Syracuse University that wanted to approach moral injury academically and offer paths for further exploration. There's a longer version of the story you can read at our website. We met monthly until we agreed to host a literary reading on Veterans Day 2014, an academic conference (it happened in April), and an art competition. Folks from the public were very interested in our work and there was positive reception to the conference panels in particular. The conference was an all-day affair, with a panel of researchers from universities across the country who had worked with moral injury and/or were researching & looking for ways to quantify it. There were some great questions afterwards (youtube link). We organized four theologians/priests/scholars of various faiths to discuss their reception to moral injury-bearers in their respective communities. And we had some veterans who had written prose/poetry and created art of their own experiences to discussing the narration of moral injury on the final panel. My role across the last year was to organize about a dozen university professors, administrators, deans, chaplains, and researchers to volunteer their time and handle small chunks of this project. We started out with almost no clue what to do - except that we wanted to do something. We did truly create something from nothing -- thanks to lots of private university $$$ from sympathetic departments -- and a lot of volunteered time from abovementioned individuals. I was paid a token stipend to keep the committee organized. I am posting this to share my experience and answer questions about advocating for a topic like moral injury (*I am not an authority on moral injury).
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May 12, 2015 17:38
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Can I put it in an appeal to the VA? If not, I don't give a poo poo.
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May 12, 2015 18:01
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Grem posted:Can I put it in an appeal to the VA? If not, I don't give a poo poo. sounds like you have been morally injured.
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May 12, 2015 22:09
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Would this be a good place to discuss resiliency to moral injury, and the possibility of creating this resistance to moral injury in otherwise easily morally injured individuals? I ask because war will always be an immoral affair, and there will be more wars, but we really need to figure out how to keep that basic fact from literally breaking so many goddamn young men's minds. What they tried with the resiliency training poo poo was a joke. All PowerPoint, no training. There is good training out there to get individuals through the worst kind of poo poo and live afterward.. SERE Level C is much closer to what I'm thinking of instead of a yearly resiliency PowerPoint. I guess what I'm saying is- if we morally scar our little baby killing warriors bad enough, early enough, they won't even notice the moral injury of war. If done right. The problem I am describing is only amplified in magnitude by the social demographics of the youngest, lowest ranked, yet largest population, of our military unfortunately. Someone is gonna have to find a way to power wash an awful lot of sand out of a lot of vaginas before moral injury isn't the second leading cause of sad brains after a four way tie at first place for Re-Enlisting, Getting Stop Lossed, IRR Recalls and War. Big Bad Boy Bradley Manning isn't just cause célèbre for the LGBTQ'ers, he's the poster child for how easily his kind (which is far from uncommon) of service member is not only morally injured, but just how loving badly they react to said moral injury. And no I don't mean gays or trans. I mean the grown man child syndrome that seems all to common amongst his kind of G.I. dirt bag and has only grown since the GWOT went hot. Moral injury sucks, but you don't wind up being morally injured connecting cables on a server rack. Ya know? Unless, of course, you are the tried and true blue breed of self blaming pussy looking to martyr yourself and the rest of us. Why? Just to appease your ego mostly and your false sense of narcissistic morality secondly. I.E. The Bradley Mannings of the DoD. The "gently caress you dad!" generation is already maintaining and operating our nuclear weaponry. Within 15 years one of them will be in the Oval Office, and then we will live in a world were the "No! gently caress YOU! dad!" Children are completely vertically integrated in not only our nuclear enterprise, but sadly also it's associated command and control structure. These kids wanna cut off their balls or tits to spite their bullies- and some day we'll let them control the nukes. Thank god, nuclear cleansing is upon us. I'm just packing my bags just waiting for the end times.  
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May 13, 2015 00:03
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So many words. Attention span 2 short. Please convey ideas via picture or emoticons so I can track.
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May 13, 2015 00:44
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Would this be a good place to discuss resiliency to moral injury, and the possibility of creating this resistance to moral injury in otherwise easily morally injured individuals? Yeah I think you can find universal agreement that the first step in improving our response to the problem is don't give any of the homework to the DoD because they will turn it into quarterly-training powerpoint bullshit, guaranteed. That said, one of the coolest things that came up during our conference was one researcher whose focus was on identifying whether it made more sense to improve our (society's) capacity to response to moral injury, or whether we should seek to prevent it (resiliency), or whether we should seek to avoid morally injurious circumstances in the first place (which you already noted is effectively impossible in our current version of war). LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Someone is gonna have to find a way to power wash an awful lot of sand out of a lot of vaginas before moral injury isn't the second leading cause of sad brains after a four way tie at first place for Re-Enlisting, Getting Stop Lossed, IRR Recalls and War. Yeah I agree there is a strong connection from moral injury to suicides and other less-absolute manifestations of a not-so-fully-lived life, post-service, that seems to be prevalent in Vietnam Vets onward. I don't think it has nearly as much to do with a military culture that is not kind to overly sensitive millennials that can't handle time outs or being told "no". LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Big Bad Boy Bradley Manning isn't just cause célèbre for the LGBTQ'ers, he's the poster child for how easily his kind (which is far from uncommon) of service member is not only morally injured, but just how loving badly they react to said moral injury. I do know folks who have become useless after some pretty mild exposure to stuff that, relative to my own experiences, seems trivial. There is some sweet spot between "suck it up" and "you need to get help" for every individual. Some folks go through hell and come out OK. Others press a button in a UAV shack in Las Vegas and are scarred for life. How do you define some minimum level of "this is not an acceptable source of moral injury" ? You can't. You can laugh at the sadbrains who didn't see as much poo poo as you, but this isn't helping anyone. Manning obviously had issues beyond moral injury, and I don't think an appropriate response to those issues can be shoehorned into this context.
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May 13, 2015 00:44
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Dingleberry posted:So many words. Attention span 2 short. People see bad thing happen or do bad thing, war, feel bad after Sometimes spend life sad or shoot self Need to talk, don't trust anyone though, society give no poo poo about sad, just yellow ribbon Sad because dead stuff like babies, not sad because of fireworks and kabooms
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May 13, 2015 00:45
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LtCol J. Krusinski posted:Would this be a good place to discuss resiliency to moral injury, and the possibility of creating this resistance to moral injury in otherwise easily morally injured individuals? sounds like you have been morally injured.
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May 13, 2015 15:18
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What if you just don't believe in feeling bad about good wet work? https://youtu.be/LQeRBOLybIw?t=56s Booblord Zagats fucked around with this message at 15:39 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 15:33
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This is a good topic Zeris. In the interest of promoting discussion I'm going to ask the peanut gallery to raise the posting bar just a teeny tiny bit. 
Nostalgia4Infinity fucked around with this message at 16:27 on May 13, 2015 |
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May 13, 2015 16:24
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Nostalgia4Infinity posted:This is a good topic Zeris. I like the thread and I'm glad and surprised that the topic is something that at least is getting attention within the VA and academia.
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May 13, 2015 16:51
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Ralp posted:I like the thread and I'm glad and surprised that the topic is something that at least is getting attention within the VA and academia. While researchers are just now producing data that will inform the next 5-10 years' of research (to produce even better, hopefully useable data), the snowball effect has begun. Which says a lot. Media coverage is helping. People coming home and writing good books about their war experiences helps, too. Even the loving Hollywood movies help as long as they're keeping people interested in the mental health / veteran overlap. Sad to say but the hyperbolic "support the troops" mentalities are a useful resource in channeling funds & volunteer efforts to explore more "experimental" (obviously not in my own opinion) things like moral injury. You've also got equine facilitate psychotherapy, the service dog popularity explosion, veterans on nature hikes, veterans on fly fishing trips, etc. etc. etc. A million nonprofits are trying a million different things, and conversely, a lot of different institutions are exploring this "moral injury" topic with credibility to the endeavor, and therefore, with more funding/resources/commitment. Everyone wins. This NYTimes Op-Ed is a solid, short read on moral injury with respect to present-day wars and vets. This HuffPo 3-part long read is longer and the best of all I have seen lately. Newsweek piece on PTSD vs Moral Injury.
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May 13, 2015 18:44
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Ralp posted:sounds like you have been morally injured. Sure. But probably not from the things you'd expect. I got to experience the two most well known types of GWOT, often in the same operation. Both the the "Point and click enemy of the state" GWOT and the "Holy poo poo We butt stroked an old woman to shut her up so we could finish doing SSE and nobody gave a poo poo, haha that bitch is twitching like crazy in the floor. drat head wounds sure do bleed." GWOT. I don't feel like that stuff morally injured me, much, if at all. My ability to empathize with Afghani's isn't even rudimentary. It's non existent. I, sincerely, see them as lesser forms of a very undeserved form of a much lower life. If given the time and inclination I could absolutely put a monetary value on an Afghani "life", and I assure you that I'd be selling 'em by the gross with a bonus Bakers dozen for mere buttecoins or beads. Because that's how much they're worth. And that's the nicest view I have of the "people" of the "Islamic Republic" of "Afghanistan." I also know I'm not exactly unique in this regard, but I'm also far from the norm. To illustrate: If someone told me that most of the Afghani's that were alive on 9/11/01 were actually dead today I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. I'd be very disappointed. That it wasn't all of them. Now I don't expect you or anyone else to adopt my point of view, and frankly the world is best left with my kind deep in the minority (Both the Yid and my less ethnically accepting parts), but please don't think my moral injury came from anywhere but the bureaucracy of all of that mess. You can wash off the blood of the mud with time but you can't wash off the blood of a GO LOR, ever. 
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May 14, 2015 19:08
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Zeris posted:Big point here: Moral injury is *not* PTSD. PTSD is diagnosed in a doctor's office, has a DSM-V listing, exhibits symptoms & requires clinical / therapeutic response. It is a medical condition. Would this be like e.g. a drone operator trying to deal with killing kids or families on another continent, from a non-traumatic air-conditioned cubicle? (I didn't see the movie about that(?) but they were talking about it on NPR and it reminded me of this thread.)
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May 14, 2015 20:36
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These articles have given me a term for the thing that compels me to immediately dismiss all of the stats and anecdotes in these articles as total bullshit. Moral Injury all the way down.
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May 14, 2015 20:58
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Ralp posted:Would this be like e.g. a drone operator trying to deal with killing kids or families on another continent, from a non-traumatic air-conditioned cubicle? (I didn't see the movie about that(?) but they were talking about it on NPR and it reminded me of this thread.) That would be Moral Injury/Not embracing the chaotic nature of this universe
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May 14, 2015 21:27
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Ralp posted:Would this be like e.g. a drone operator trying to deal with killing kids or families on another continent, from a non-traumatic air-conditioned cubicle? (I didn't see the movie about that(?) but they were talking about it on NPR and it reminded me of this thread.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qVdvBU8Vco I'm the guy who says good kill. lmao at the jet sounds coming from the MQ-9
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May 14, 2015 21:57
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I am morally injured every time someone uses the terms cis, hetero, white, triggered, and privileged.
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May 15, 2015 03:30
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Zeris posted:
As one of those button pressing UAV shackers who is now hosed up for life, I'd like to say gently caress you. Ralp posted:Would this be like e.g. a drone operator trying to deal with killing kids or families on another continent, from a non-traumatic air-conditioned cubicle? (I didn't see the movie about that(?) but they were talking about it on NPR and it reminded me of this thread.) And a hearty gently caress you to you too sir. Endormoon fucked around with this message at 03:39 on May 15, 2015 |
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May 15, 2015 03:37
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Endormoon posted:As one of those button pressing UAV shackers who is now hosed up for life, I'd like to say gently caress you. lmbo go change your panties
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May 15, 2015 04:15
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I mean pulling the trigger in person- at least you'd be exposed to the futility of it all. Pressing a button and watching a bunch of mud huts explode.. poo poo, you could probably delude yourself into thinking one of those neon white splotches might've one day cured cancer. Makes sense.
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May 15, 2015 04:27
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I still think whomever designed the hellfire missile was stood up at the alter.
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May 15, 2015 04:30
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Did playing that one Call of Duty mission with the AC-130 trigger you?
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May 15, 2015 04:40
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Spec Ops: The Line triggered me. How many Americans have you killed today? There is no difference between what is right and what is necessary. If you were a better person, you wouldn't be here. It's time for you to wake up. You are still a good person. Can you even remember why you came here? This is all your fault. Do you feel like a hero yet? To kill for yourself is murder. To kill for your government is heroic. To kill for entertainment is harmless. White phosphorous is a common allotrope used in your slaughter at the Gate. It can set fire to soldiers and the innocent civilians they are trying to help. Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two conflicting ideas simultaneously. You cannot understand, nor do you want to. The US military does not condone the killing of unarmed combatants. But this isn't real, so why should you care? We cannot escape anguish. It is what we are. If Lugo were still alive, he would likely suffer from PTSD. So, really, he's the lucky one. Adams blames Walker for Lugo's death. It's his fault they didn't leave Dubai when they had the chance.
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May 15, 2015 04:54
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Who else went all "Waste the motherfuckers" on that crowd when they strung your dude up in Spec Ops: The Line
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May 15, 2015 04:59
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Endormoon posted:And a hearty gently caress you to you too sir. I don't know if you read sarcasm into my post, but I meant it sincerely. It's plainly obvious to me that playing a big video game that murders real people is an experience that can profoundly affect a person. But it seems like maybe that doesn't quite qualify as PTSD, since there was no conventional "trauma". I mean I believe psychological trauma is very real, but perhaps moral injury is a better label in any case for the specific sort of long-term damage this kind of experience leaves on someone's psyche.
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May 15, 2015 13:02
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Endormoon posted:As one of those button pressing UAV shackers who is now hosed up for life, I'd like to say gently caress you. You know, I made a pretty good case for why your experiences are relevant to this situation. The kneejerk "lol pogs/uavs/etc. literally can't have reactions to their work" is tiresome. And it enforces a stigma that keeps people from opening up about their experiences, which is the whole loving point of discussing stuff like moral injury. Anyway, this is for you as much as everyone else. I can't tell if you're being sarcastic
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May 15, 2015 14:29
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Endormoon posted:As one of those button pressing UAV shackers who is now hosed up for life, I'd like to say gently caress you. Maybe try and explain things a bit instead of telling people to get hosed? If you have a job that requires significant time spent outside of the wire, you naturally develop disdain for those that don't have to leave the wire and can sit back in relative safety and comfort while you do the "real" work. The disdain is amplified when you're talking about a UAV operator that isn't even in country or even remotely in physical danger. I was in the infantry and my war experience was very much hands on and engaged all of my senses. Because I know nothing about UAV operators it's difficult for me to try and imagine what it's like for them and it's even harder to compare their experiences with my own and reconcile that these two very different occupations can produce the same traumatic experiences. It's like if I was in a movie that a UAV operator later watched. Same movie, but we experienced it in very different ways. If they tell me that the movie had the same impact on them as it did me, I'm going to have a hard time seeing their side without some additional info. Now, maybe you don't want to talk about it and that's fine. Just keep in mind that a large portion of people are not flexible in how they view PTSD so without qualifying what you're saying they're likely to dismiss you as someone who's bullshitting. I'm certainly not trying to be a dick to you, and I have an open mind, so I hope you can shed some light on this. If you'd rather not discuss this in public on a comedy website feel free to shoot me a PM.
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May 15, 2015 14:31
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Also everyone could you not use this as your illegal dumpster drop point for horrible Trigger-jokes and video game references-- I would rather this thread die in silence if people really don't want to talk about it semi-seriously, thanks. 
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May 15, 2015 14:31
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RichieHimself posted:If you have a job that requires significant time spent outside of the wire, you naturally develop disdain for those that don't have to leave the wire and can sit back in relative safety and comfort while you do the "real" work. You know, I understand where this comes from but the "outside the wire" guys have a tendency to forget that (for the most part) the inside the wire folks get the job we're told we're going to get. I was not asked my opinion on the matter. I would not say I have even a little PTSD and I wouldn't say I have any "moral injury" but I do feel like I "cheated" a little bit by being mostly inside the wire even though I had absolutely no option to be out more than once a month or so.
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May 16, 2015 00:12
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I have a question: what is the goal of "advocating for a topic like moral injury"? It sounds like 99% of people who served in the military at any point in time are affected by moral injury to some degree. Hell, it sounds like 99% of adults are probably affected by it. So what use is that to anybody? How do you advocate for something that is, basically, "feelings described as anything other than positive"? Kiryen posted:You know, I understand where this comes from but the "outside the wire" guys have a tendency to forget that (for the most part) the inside the wire folks get the job we're told we're going to get. I was not asked my opinion on the matter. I would not say I have even a little PTSD and I wouldn't say I have any "moral injury" but I do feel like I "cheated" a little bit by being mostly inside the wire even though I had absolutely no option to be out more than once a month or so. USMC 0300 INFANTRY loving duh dude* *Does not guarantee you will do anything of note outside the wire, but you will be outside the wire** ** Not shooting people is a common source of moral injury for infantrymen*** *** Unless you live in the same world that these articles were written in, where 65% of deployed military of any MOS get to kill people. Yeah loving right. Victor Vermis fucked around with this message at 00:38 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 00:35
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OZYMANDICKASS posted:I have a question: what is the goal of "advocating for a topic like moral injury"? You are smarter than this, do you want to ask real questions
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May 16, 2015 01:00
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RichieHimself posted:Maybe try and explain things a bit instead of telling people to get hosed? If you have a job that requires significant time spent outside of the wire, you naturally develop disdain for those that don't have to leave the wire and can sit back in relative safety and comfort while you do the "real" work. The disdain is amplified when you're talking about a UAV operator that isn't even in country or even remotely in physical danger. I was in the infantry and my war experience was very much hands on and engaged all of my senses. Because I know nothing about UAV operators it's difficult for me to try and imagine what it's like for them and it's even harder to compare their experiences with my own and reconcile that these two very different occupations can produce the same traumatic experiences. Not an RPA operator but I work with and am friends with quite a few of them. The biggest thing that I've heard from them that is unique to the RPA world is the constant stare/familiarity aspect of it. This is something that the guys who were previously on manned platforms tend to be especially vocal at pointing out. When you're on, say, a F-16, you basically sit in the stack, get your 9-line, roll in, drop bombs, maybe pull a minute or two of post-strike footage (if that), and then leave to hit the tanker or RTB. Even if you're an A-10 in a CAS scenario and you're loitering to help out the guys on the ground, you're not focusing on the bad guys you just hit, you're focusing on the next threat to the guys on the ground all while jinking/expending flares/otherwise avoiding getting shot yourself. Contrast that with the Pred pilot and SO. They will often spend hours looking at the same house/following the same car/tracking the same dude/etc, all while cruising around leisurely at 15,000 ft, where the biggest challenge is airspace coordination and making sure SO Shakes McGee doesn't lose track of the target. Sometimes if you're tracking a particular HVI or focused on a particular compound this will extend across multiple shifts on different days. Then, after the 30 seconds between rifle and splash, you get to spend another couple hours staring at the aftermath. The good strikes are the ones where it's just a couple of dead dudes that deserved killing. The bad ones...from what I've heard actually being the guy who fired the missile that blew up a wedding isn't the best feeling in the world. I'd argue your comment about "the movie had the same impact on them as it did me" is kind of missing the point. Moral injury isn't supposed to be the same thing as PTSD...PTSD requires direct, personal exposure to a traumatic situation (i.e., what the stereotypical infantry door-kicker experiences). Moral injury is about what you feel after undertaking an action in the course of performing your job that doesn't necessarily line up with your moral code, or what you perceive as the moral code of society. If a drone pilot argues that he observed a TIC and is traumatized the exact same way as the guys on the ground being shot at, he's not being honest/doesn't have a full understanding of what the guys on the ground experienced. However, let's imagine that the drone pilot/SO shot a Hellfire that enabled the guys on the ground to break contact and vacate the area. They haul rear end and are happy to be alive. In the meantime the drone operators get to spend another two hours cataloging the aftermath of the strike where they killed one bad guy...along with 10 women and kids. They're not going to experience PTSD after that...but they're probably going to experience something that is beyond a simple "negative feeling" and is different from what the guys on the ground experienced. That isn't to say that guys who were exposed to trauma to the level of suffering from PTSD can't also have moral injury from their experiences...Tom Ricks just posted a decent article that features an example of just that. I'm just trying to help delineate the differences as I see them. Hell, I know I have some not super pleasant memories from watching immediate post-strike footage or the couple times I've watched strikes live. One that stands out is when I was watching video of a strike a few minutes after that happened a couple miles away from KAF, the guy in question was a dude who was facilitating attacks against KAF and was otherwise not a nice dude. The first hellfire in blew his legs off, so they watched for another couple minutes while he flopped around and presumably made his peace with Allah, and then sent another one to finish the job. When it hit his torso blew in the air and appeared to head directly towards the "camera" like it was in a cheesy "made for 3D" action movie. The first time I watched the video I busted out laughing when the torso flew towards the camera. Natural reaction (I guess), but not something I'm particularly proud about in retrospect, especially if I start thinking about how the guy in question wasn't a hardened Islamist who wanted to pull off the next 9/11, he was just some dude that was pissed off at Americans in his country (and the subsequent rabbit hole that thought train entails). I say that not to say I've somehow suffered a moral injury, because all that is definitely nowhere near the moral injury level and it's not like I'm sitting here anguishing every night over that time I inappropriately laughed at some post-strike footage. I only tell the story to relay how I can completely understand how someone who is exposed to that every single day as a regular course of doing their job could potentially have issues with it and how it could potentially impact their life in general. And VV, the point is that too often stuff like this gets lumped in with PTSD which enables some (somewhat justifiably) to poo-poo the idea wholesale...but just because someone isn't suffering from PTSD doesn't mean their experiences in the military haven't had a negative effect on their psyche. e: While this isn't directly related to the topic of moral injury, it is related to the topic of RPA operators so I figured I'd toss it in. There's an additional mind-gently caress associated with conducting combat operations for 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week, and then driving home to your wife and kids. There's a different kind of mental issue that's caused from literally being responsible for killing people one minute and then two hours later coaching your kid's soccer team or taking your wife out to dinner....and doing that every single work-day for years on end. That's probably the most common complaint/issue that RPA dudes have to work through. iyaayas01 fucked around with this message at 06:00 on May 16, 2015 |
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May 16, 2015 05:53
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I re-read the articles. Got it.
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May 16, 2015 06:03
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There is a lot of words in this thread and words take effort. So... I get from this it's more along the lines of survivors/actions/cost of war guilt as opposed to flashback/paranoia. It might be worth broadening the study to reflect the interaction of mi with PTSD. Ie does one feed the other. Which is more common. Difference in treatment. Misdiagnosis.... Also looking into not that someone feels terrible for what they did. But how many feel like they are treated as a murder/ suffer abuse for their service in an unpopular war. Would that fall into MI or is it something completely different. This is a real big issue for nam vets and it happens with OIF/OEF vets too
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May 16, 2015 07:27
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Genocide Tendency posted:Also looking into not that someone feels terrible for what they did. But how many feel like they are treated as a murder/ suffer abuse for their service in an unpopular war. Would that fall into MI or is it something completely different. This is a real big issue for nam vets and it happens with OIF/OEF vets too I'd argue it falls onto the spectrum of MI. A negative reaction of society to their war could cause or exacerbate conflicting/negative feelings one has about their service in that war. Society's reaction could range from being called a murderer/baby-killer/etc like the Nam vets received or even just having participated in a war that no one really cares about that didn't have a "victory", like Iraq/Afghanistan, as opposed to getting a victory parade like Gramps got after V-J Day.
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May 16, 2015 08:03
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Right. And for some OIF vets it is similar. I call a friend at least once a week to make sure he hasn't snapped and shot up a shopping mall. His biggest issue is his entire family essentially disowned him because of the  unjust war . While that's probably real rare, less obvious slights like having some shithead college students or that one professor give vets a hard rear end time isn't.It's not Vietnam levels of stupidity thankfully. But MI is an interesting concept. Any word on how recognized/accepted this is in medical/mental health? For example is it something that the government/va is actually looking at compensation for or at least aware of/reviewing it?
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May 16, 2015 16:59
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