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http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/09/21/3703765/israeli-police-can-now-use-snipers-against-palestinian-teens-throwing-stones/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Long_Rifle#Performance >Because a .22 LR bullet is less powerful than larger cartridges, its danger to humans is often underestimated. In fact, a .22 LR bullet is capable of inflicting very serious injuries (e.g. the four people wounded, one mortally, during the Reagan assassination attempt) or death e.g. the Kauhajoki school shooting (11 killed and one wounded), the Jokela school shooting (eight killed and one wounded), and the 1979 Cleveland Elementary School shooting (two killed and nine wounded), as well as the assassination of Robert F. Kennedy. Numerous other shooting incidents have demonstrated that .22 LR bullets can easily kill or seriously injure humans. Even after flying 400 yd (370 m), a .22 bullet is still traveling about 500 ft/s (150 m/s). Ricochets are more common in .22 LR projectiles than for more powerful cartridges as the combination of unjacketed lead and moderate velocities allows the projectile to deflect – not penetrate or disintegrate – when hitting hard objects at a glancing angle. A .22 LR can ricochet off the surface of water at a low angle of aim. Severe injury may result to a person or object in the line of fire on the opposite shore, several hundred yards away. 
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Sep 23, 2015 13:24
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quote:officers can only shoot if the stone throwers are endangering the lives of people in cars or houses. so? e: the dude in the photo is using a sling. If you got hit in the face you would be seriously harmed or killed. tumblr.txt fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 13:26
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tumblr.txt posted:so? Yes, I'm sure that would seriously hurt a car and/or house.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:31
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tbh I wish Israel would just stop pulling punches and bomb Palestine into submission. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 23, 2015 13:33
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tumblr.txt posted:tbh I wish Israel would just stop pulling punches and bomb Palestine into submission. They already do that every couple of years.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:35
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tumblr.txt posted:e: the dude in the photo is using a sling. If you got hit in the face you would be seriously harmed or killed. This, so very, very much. Slings are anything but non-lethal and with the right shot can penetrate and injure as readily as the aforementioned .22 LR. That's not to excuse the Israelis, by the way, I'm just saying that it's not quite as staggeringly asymmetric as it might appear. EDIT: Come to think of it, calling anything "non-lethal" is utter bullshit. Rubber bullets and tear gas can, will and do kill people. I'm not even sure if .22 bullets are any worse than what's already being fielded by Israeli border police. TomViolence fucked around with this message at 13:44 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 13:38
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Dennis the Menace was a war criminal.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:44
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R. Mute posted:Dennis the Menace was a war criminal. He did have a habit of assaulting the homeless and lighting them on fire.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:45
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The Israeli government has said that they'll only be using their 10/22s against people targeting vehicles and homes. If someone is slinging rocks at people's heads, there's a pretty good argument to be made for the use of lethal force. It's simply disingenuous to call shooting someone with .22LR a non-lethal option. Edit: nothing used for crowd control is 100% non-lethal. Less-lethal is probably a better term, but that's not what's used in the story. Volcott fucked around with this message at 13:52 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 13:48
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Volcott posted:The Israeli government has said that they'll only be using their 10/22s against people targeting vehicles and homes. If someone is slinging rocks at people's heads, there's a pretty good argument to be made for the use of lethal force. Right, except: quote:According to the policy shift, authorized by Attorney General Yehuda Weinstein, officers can only shoot if the stone throwers are endangering the lives of people in cars or houses. EDIT: I should probably be clear here, I'm not defending the "non-lethal" designation or any other aspect of Israeli policy. I'm just saying you can't go calling anyone disingenuous when you don't seem to have read the article yourself.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:52
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22s kill a lot more people than qassam rockets...
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Sep 23, 2015 13:54
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TomViolence posted:Right, except: Here's one such incident. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/08/palestinian-teenager-shot-back-senior-israeli-soldier-mohammed-kasbeh A commander, fearing for his life, exits his military vehicle and shoots a rock thrower. That's the Israeli account.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:56
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If you know you're going to get shot, maybe you should stop throwing rocks?
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Sep 23, 2015 13:59
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tumblr.txt posted:If you know you're going to get shot, maybe you should stop throwing rocks? The Palestinian account is that he ran once several men existed the vehicle, and was then shot in the back.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:00
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tumblr.txt posted:If you know you're going to get shot, maybe you should stop throwing rocks?  "If you'd just stop resisting sir, the dog would stop biting you"  "If you stop resisting, we'll unziptie you from the windshield of our vehicle."
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Sep 23, 2015 14:01
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Volcott posted:The Israeli government has said that they'll only be using their 10/22s against people targeting vehicles and homes. If someone is slinging rocks at people's heads, there's a pretty good argument to be made for the use of lethal force. I'm with you 100%. Things like bean bag shotgun rounds absolutely have the capacity to break bones, cause massive internal bleeding, and rupture organs. The fact that it doesn't actually put a hole in you can cause a delay in receiving medical care that could compound the issue. That being said, calling .22 non lethal is stupidity that is bordering on Orwellian. In any other country if you have someone slinging rocks at people I can see using it potentially justified, but I don't trust the IDF to be level headed in their justification of usage given their history of indiscriminate and overwhelming escalation of force.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:12
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tumblr.txt posted:If you know you're going to get shot, maybe you should stop throwing rocks? 
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Sep 23, 2015 14:25
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mugrim posted:22s kill a lot more people than qassam rockets... Well, let's be reasonable here. Is there anything the Israeli Defense Force could arm itself with that could match the level of non-lethality of Qassam rockets?
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Sep 23, 2015 14:35
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Effectronica posted:Well, let's be reasonable here. Is there anything the Israeli Defense Force could arm itself with that could match the level of non-lethality of Qassam rockets? F-35s.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:38
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Effectronica posted:Well, let's be reasonable here. Is there anything the Israeli Defense Force could arm itself with that could match the level of non-lethality of Qassam rockets? Finger pointing.
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Sep 23, 2015 14:39
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Volcott posted:F-35s. Pretty sure the F-35s will kill more IDF pilots than Qassam rockets ever will.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:01
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Volcott posted:Yes, I'm sure that would seriously hurt a car and/or house. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-violence.html?_r=0
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Sep 23, 2015 21:11
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The Insect Court posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-violence.html?_r=0  I love that the only part you bothered to notice in that article was an Israeli dying, y'know, instead of the context.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:26
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Play stupid games (building your home amongst people that hate you), win stupid prizes (being stoned to death).
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Sep 23, 2015 22:41
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So I'm guessing there aren't many countries on the planet that consider putting an actual metal bullet fired from a gun into a person to be non-lethal, huh?
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Sep 23, 2015 22:55
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Mercury_Storm posted:So I'm guessing there aren't many countries on the planet that consider putting an actual metal bullet fired from a gun into a person to be non-lethal, huh? One of the resident gun nuts on this forum says that .22's are only good for target shooting (therefore don't ban guns) so it's an idea that's bouncing around out there.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:58
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Perhaps if the people whose territory you are occupying are throwing rocks at you that's a "you" problem.
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Sep 23, 2015 22:59
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Tezzor posted:Perhaps if the people whose territory you are occupying are throwing rocks at you that's a "you" problem. Something something Greater Israel something something Palestinians are an invented people something something.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:02
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CommieGIR posted:
Unlike you, I do not consider the murder of an innocent man to be a laudable act. Feel free to "contextualize" however you wish. The Insect Court fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 00:00
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The Insect Court posted:Unlike you, I do not consider the murder of an innocent man to be a laudable act. Because that's all that happened. Nice straw.....well, you know.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:01
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I wonder if there was something lost in translation here. I could see someone claiming .22 was a less lethal option. They would be wrong, but that's a lot more understandable than calling it a non-lethal option, even more so if they where comparing it to something like 5.56.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:05
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Urzza posted:I wonder if there was something lost in translation here. I could see someone claiming .22 was a less lethal option. They would be wrong, but that's a lot more understandable than calling it a non-lethal option, even more so if they where comparing it to something like 5.56. To be fair most things can be considered 'less lethal' when you are free to pick what they are compared to. All bullets are less lethal than an RPG for instance. The difference is that 'less lethal' has previously been taken to mean 'less lethal than bullets' rather than 'less lethal than these more dangerous types of bullet'.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:38
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Wow I/P and gun-chat. Two great tastes that taste great together.
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Sep 24, 2015 00:44
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As someone's already remarked: I think the title of this thread is misleading- reading the original Haaretz article, it doesn't say .22lr is being classified as "non-lethal" or "less-lethal" ammunition. The attorney general has authorized Southern District police to use rimfire rifles to "shoot to wound." Previously the police had been using actual less-lethal devices like pepper ball guns. The rifle in question is the suppressed Ruger 10/22, presumably firing subsonic (slower, quieter) ammunition. The unsuppressed variant of the 10/22 is enormously popular in the United States, but if you do a little research, you'll find that it's not known for being accurate. Shooting low velocity ammunition from a standing position, I would not consider the 10/22 to be accurate enough beyond 75 yards to avoid accidentally hitting someone's femoral artery or kneecap. If you're shooting at someone within 75 yards, that begs the question: why not just use bean bag rounds or a pepper ball gun? Being shot in the knee ("kneecapping" explained, no images) or ankle can permanently destroy that joint, and may require amputation. Complete transection of the fermoral artery can cause death in minutes. It's for good reason that in the United States there is no legal distinction between shooting someone in the leg with a .22lr or a .45 in the chest. Both shots would be considered "deadly force," and could be justified as self defense only if you were preventing someone else's unlawful use of deadly force. The Ruger 10/22 will not stop someone in the act of throwing stones better than less-lethal devices already in use with the Israeli police. At best they will inflict debilitating injuries that will deter future incidents- more likely they will serve as a means of dolling out retributive violence for a political purpose.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:17
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Dilkington posted:Being shot in the knee ("kneecapping" explained, no images) or ankle can permanently destroy that joint, and may require amputation. Complete transection of the fermoral artery can cause death in minutes. If I've learned anything from reading gunchat is that this is literally impossible.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:20
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The Insect Court posted:http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/15/world/middleeast/israel-west-bank-violence.html?_r=0 Do you believe that it's proportionate and morally justifiable to use a sniper rifle to shoot a kid with stones and a sling?
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Sep 24, 2015 02:04
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The Insect Court posted:Unlike you, I do not consider the murder of an innocent man to be a laudable act. Unless, you know, it's the IDF doing the murdering.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:08
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Chomskyan posted:Do you believe that it's proportionate and morally justifiable to use a sniper rifle to shoot a kid with stones and a sling? It depends if you think the story of David and Goliath has any value to it.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:09
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As a gun nut I can confirm that shoot to wound is the dumbest loving thing I ever heard of. It bears mentioning that European police forces sometimes have policies that conditionally allow for it as well and thus they also are retards. Other things that are relatedly stupid: asking why American SWAT snipers didn't shoot the gun out of a hostage taker's hand, etc. etc.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:21
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Gropiemon posted:If I've learned anything from reading gunchat is that this is literally impossible. A lot of research has been done on blast/ballistic trauma in the past decade, but to know that cavitation and secondary missiles (bone or bullet fragments) ruin joints, you don't have to be familiar with any of it. Just go to the library and get a book on forensic pathology from the 50's.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:28
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