Dilkington posted:

The rifle in question is the suppressed Ruger 10/22, presumably firing subsonic (slower, quieter) ammunition. The unsuppressed variant of the 10/22 is enormously popular in the United States, but if you do a little research, you'll find that it's not known for being accurate. Shooting low velocity ammunition from a standing position, I would not consider the 10/22 to be accurate enough beyond 75 yards to avoid accidentally hitting someone's femoral artery or kneecap. If you're shooting at someone within 75 yards, that begs the question: why not just use bean bag rounds or a pepper ball gun?

Dilkington posted:

A lot of research has been done on blast/ballistic trauma in the past decade, but to know that cavitation and secondary missiles (bone or bullet fragments) ruin joints, you don't have to be familiar with any of it. Just go to the library and get a book on forensic pathology from the 50's.

Gravel Gravy posted:

It depends if you think the story of David and Goliath has any value to it.

SedanChair posted:

The 10/22 is perfectly accurate, and with aftermarket parts can be incredibly accurate. Past 75 yards I would imagine the wind and bullet drop inherent to .22 LR would limit practical accuracy more than the actual tolerances of the platform. (The reason they want to use bullets instead of less-lethal options is because they want to kill)

I'd imagine that they would be using a bipod, or at least a rest from prone position. The trick would be doping on the fly with such a ballistically limited cartridge.

Tokamak posted:

Shooting people with guns is bad.

Urzza posted:

I wonder if there was something lost in translation here. I could see someone claiming .22 was a less lethal option. They would be wrong, but that's a lot more understandable than calling it a non-lethal option, even more so if they where comparing it to something like 5.56.

quote:

Israel began to import small caliber sniper rifles for “riot control” during the First Intifada. The intention was to deploy weapons that would be less lethal than its standard issue 5.56mm US-Israeli M16 assault rifle, but with more potent firepower than rubber-coated metal bullets (which have also killed). The IDF settled on the Ruger 10/22, which fired a relatively small, but high velocity 0.22 caliber rimfire cartridge that could be used “to take out key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.”

In 2001, following the killing of several children in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank by Israeli soldiers using the Ruger 10/22, the IDF Judge Advocate General ruled that the weapon should be classified as a live-fire weapon and banned from crowd control usage. ”The mistake was that the Ruger came to be seen as a means of dispersing demonstrations, in contrast to its original purpose as a weapon in every respect,” said a senior IDF officer.

Nevertheless, the Israeli security forces began to deploy the Ruger 10/22 again, with lethal effect, to suppress West Bank protests against the Apartheid Wall in 2008-09.

quote:

The Ruger 10/22 sniper rifle is back in use in the West Bank.

The weapon has been outlawed under Israeli law since 2001. It was deemed “more lethal than previously thought” by the Israeli occupation Judge Advocate General Menachem Finkelstein after it killed several children in Gaza during the second Intifada.

The reintroduction of the rifle marks a change in ideology by the Israeli army's Central Command.

Its use has been historically linked to escalations in demonstrations and protests in the West Bank, despite its reclassification as lethal. It also comes at a time when Israel has been receiving 'bad press’ and international condemnation in relation to its settlement policy. The use of the weapon, alongside the increasing use of live ammunition during protests, as a means to entice Palestinian demonstrators into violence should not be discarded as a reason behind its renewed usage.

Its introduction was intended to provide the Israeli army with a crowd-control weapon than was less lethal than the M-16, but with more 'stopping power’ than rubber-coated steel bullets (which, incidentally, have killed many Palestinians). The weapon fires a stubby metal bullet a quarter of an inch in diameter (0.22 calibre), with a typical velocity of around 405 meters a second. The M-16, by contrast fires a similar diameter round, but over twice as long, with a velocity of 990 meters a second.

Classification of the Ruger has sparked debate among military circles of the Israeli army.

It began as a 'non-lethal crowd control’ weapon, used to “take out key protestors by shooting them in the legs.”

However, following the ruling that it should be banned from use in crowd control situations due to its newly perceived lethality, the use of the Ruger was sharply reduced.

Historically, heads of the Israeli army’s Southern Command have favored the nonlethal definition, preferring to use the weapon when dealing with Palestinians in Gaza. The Israeli army Central Command, responsible for the West Bank, has been more critical of its use, citing the 'problem’ of causing unjustified Palestinian casualties when used indiscriminately. It was reclassified as an acceptable 'last resort’ when soldiers’ lives were in danger.

[...]

Its lethality also comes from the context in which it is used.

Soldiers will lie prone or rest on a wall to shoot the weapon, hidden from view and completely protected. The installation of a scope and suppressor has the aim of hitting people who do not stand as a threat to the shooter. In affect, Israeli soldiers can hit 'targets’ fully aware of their immunity from prosecution, from a safe distance and without a sound that can verify their position.

The use of the weapon is an all-round ploy to terrorize and kill Palestinian demonstrators, shoot without fear of prosecution, and yet still claim to be using a 'less-lethal form of crowd-control’ when under scrutiny by the international community.

quote:

In 1987, the Intifada – the Palestinian uprising against the Israeli regime in the Occupied Territories – broke out, and involved mass violent clashes between Israeli security forces and Palestinians protestors. As a result, the Israeli security forces needed a weapon with a more potent firepower then the standard riot control metal covered rubber round, but at the same time less lethal then the standard issue 5.56 mm round of the M16/Galil assault rifles. So the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) searched for a 0.22 caliber accurate rifle that will be used to take out the key protest leaders by shooting them in the legs.

The Ruger 10/22, fitted with a X4 day optic, a full length suppressor and a Harris bipod was selected for this role and was due to be issued to all infantry oriented units, including both special and conventional forces. However, as often happens in the shoestring budget IDF, financial problems prevented the weapon’s mass distribution, and it was mainly issued to Special Forces (SF) units. Moreover, instead of using the rifle as a riot control weapon, as originally intended, the Israeli SF deployed the Ruger 10/22 more as a “Hush Puppy” weapon used to silently and effectively eliminate disturbing dogs prior to operations.

In the recent Israeli-Palestinian clashes began in 2000, the Ruger resumes it’s original role as a less lethal riot control weapon. However, it’s usage in this role was rather controversial this time. After several incidents involving the death of Palestinians by the Ruger fire, the IDF conducted a field experiment in the Ruger at the IDF Sniper School in Mitkan Adam under the supervision of the IDF Judge Advocate General (JAG). The test showed that the Ruger was more lethal then thought especially in upper body injuries. Also, since it’s suppressed and was considered less lethal by the troops, the soldiers were much more likely to use the Ruger loosely then intended.

As a result of this test, the JAG reclassified the Ruger as a lethal weapon. As a lethal weapon, the usage of the Ruger in riot control is much more limited today. In the IDF Center Command it was completely prohibited to use and the IDF South Command it’s deployment was cut down dramatically.

-Troika- posted:

don't we already have an I/P thread

Dr. Tough posted:

Wow I/P and gun-chat. Two great tastes that taste great together.

Liberal_L33t posted:

If the Israelis actually cared about de-escalating the violence, they would be all-but-encouraging Palestinian kids to throw rocks at their armored jeeps. Think of how amazingly cathartic that must be for those teens, to be able to feel like they're striking a blow (however small) against their oppressors and regaining their dignity for just a moment. Let them get it out of their system as kids and they'll be less likely to be spending their lives building piss-fueled rockets a few years down the line.

Golda Meir posted:

When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons.

mugrim posted:

quote:

Any one who speaks in favor of bringing the Arab refugees back must also say how he expects to take the responsibility for it, if he is interested in the state of Israel. It is better that things are stated clearly and plainly: We shall not let this happen. - Golda Meir

Liberal_L33t posted:

If the Israelis actually cared about de-escalating the violence, they would be all-but-encouraging Palestinian kids to throw rocks at their armored jeeps. Think of how amazingly cathartic that must be for those teens, to be able to feel like they're striking a blow (however small) against their oppressors and regaining their dignity for just a moment. Let them get it out of their system as kids and they'll be less likely to be spending their lives building piss-fueled rockets a few years down the line.

The-Mole posted:

Ah yes the less lethal .22lr that was used in the Virginia Tech shooting. only 32 died and 17 were wounded

ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:

Israel is stupid and so is this ruling. You can kill a man with nothing but a pointy piece of wood if you try hard enough. Just because most people couldn't hit the broad side of the Empire State Building with a .22LR round doesn't make it non-lethal.

tumblr.txt posted:

I don't think anyone ever said .22lr is nonlethal.

Chomskyan posted:

Do you believe that it's proportionate and morally justifiable to use a sniper rifle to shoot a kid with stones and a sling?

Chomskyan posted:

Do you believe that it's proportionate and morally justifiable to use a sniper rifle to shoot a kid with stones and a sling?

quote:

Before the introduction of the standard 7.62×51mm NATO (.308 Winchester) cartridge in the 1950s, standard military cartridges were the .30-06 Springfield or 7.62×63mm (United States), .303 British (7.7×56mmR) (United Kingdom) and 7.92×57mm (8mm Mauser) (Germany). The .30-06 Springfield continued in service with U.S. Marine Corps snipers during the Vietnam War in the 1970s, well after general adoption of the 7.62×51mm. At the present time, in both the Western world and within NATO, 7.62×51mm is currently the primary cartridge of choice for military and police sniper rifles.

Worldwide, the trend is similar. The preferred sniper cartridge in Russia is another .30 caliber military cartridge, the 7.62×54 mm R, which has similar performance to the 7.62×51mm. This cartridge was introduced in 1891, and both Russian sniper rifles of the modern era, the Mosin–Nagant and the Dragunov sniper rifle, are chambered for it.

Xander77 posted:

Bad feelings or "capacity for violence" don't work that way. You don't have a limited amount of spleen that you can went by throwing rocks or whatever. Quite the opposite - if you engage in violence on a daily basis, for instance by throwing rocks at soldiers and civilians, it becomes a bit of a habit.

tumblr.txt posted:

"Sniper Rifle".




Sniper rifles fire the one on the right, or something like it (generally bigger). The Israelis are firing the one on the left. Calling a 10/22 a Sniper Rifle is misleading to the point of dishonesty.

tumblr.txt posted:

While we're discussing gun terminology myths, no assault rifle has played a role in a US spree shooting since 2011

tumblr.txt posted:

Putting a scope on a .22 does not turn it into a sniper rifle.

tumblr.txt posted:

Got a link?

I only brought it up because a pet hate of mine is misusing firearms terminology for political reasons, and D&D loves to hate on "Assault rifles" despite many posters not actually knowing what they are.

Tiberius Thyben posted:

The IHOP shootings. I suppose you could get really technical and say it didn't count because it was semi auto, but it was done with a MAK-90.

Faffel posted:

E: Actually, the whole sniper rifle/assault rifle designation discussion in this thread is not relevant and this is already the beginning of a silly derail. Disregard.

Tiberius Thyben posted:

The IHOP shootings. I suppose you could get really technical and say it didn't count because it was semi auto, but it was done with a MAK-90.

tumblr.txt posted:

Bingo. Not being semi-auto only is one of the key things that actually defines an assault rifle. Nothing "technical" about it, that's part of the actual definition - not "scary looking gun I'm afraid of".

quote:

(mainly US) a semiautomatic firearm with additional features such as a large magazine, a bayonet fitting, etc

quote:

Assault rifle


noun

: a gun that can shoot many bullets quickly and that is designed for use by the military

Full Definition

:any of various automatic or semiautomatic rifles with large capacity magazines designed for military use