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The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > CanPol Megathread: Big Changus
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Weed Status: legal but in a kind of disappointing way



Welcome to the Canadian politics megathread!

If you're just joining us, our country is a fairly geographically diverse and regionally segmented population of about 35 million. Approximately 68% of the voting population just elected a Liberal majority government. This returns us to the historical average of about 70% of people who actually give a poo poo to vote every few years.

How Things Stand

On November 4th, new Prime Minister Justin Trudeau will swear in a new cabinet. He has promised to keep the portfolio numbers down, and appoint a record number of women to these positions. He has also promised to move swiftly on areas of concern, which I will outline below. This being a majority government, the Liberals now have a guaranteed four years in power unless they choose to contravene the fixed election law for some bizarre reason. This gives them the kind of mandate that can radically change the country - or, more likely, moderately revamp a few election planks while finding insane new ways to screw up.

The Liberal platform has been interesting, since they seem to have taken stands on several things that seem contradictory- such as unwavering support for Keystone XL's NEB assessment, while also pushing for strengthened assessments and opposing the appropriation of native land for Northern Gateway. The platform is best viewed at Trudeau Metre, which not only lists every plank in the Liberal platform, but the progress made on each.

What we can all agree on is there is a renewed sense of purpose in Canada for having rejected Stephen Harper, even from some of the defeated NDP. The other parties are licking their wounds, and there will be lots of talk about leadership races to replace Harper. Mulcair has not signalled that he would step down, but, with a decimated seat allotment, we're not sure what will happen in a few years.

The Issues

There are so many ways that the Conservatives have been messing with Canada that I'm unsure of where to start. The following list may reflect my bias:
  1. The Federal Relationship with the Provinces: Possibly the biggest flaw in the outgoing government's plans were the provinces hating on their legislation. From Notley's (Alberta's) pipeline intransigence, to Wynne's new Ontario pension plan, nothing seemed to work. The Conservatives barely talked to the premieres. Trudeau plans to be much more genial, and impressed me on Vice when he spoke of the difficulties in forcing top-down solutions on the Confederation. However, planning to be stymied by Quebec's special relationship with the ROC is going to sting.
  2. The Senate: :ughh:
  3. Various Forms of Care: Will pharmacare, day care, health care (mulcair) see any major deviations? We don't know! The Liberals have been remarkably quiet on what they will do in these portfolios, short of a Trudeau one-off that he wouldn't impose anything. Perhaps bunnyofdoom could bring out the party line.
  4. Bill C-51 will be reformed: Trudeau has stated that the information sharing provisions need to be continued, but that he will see to it that a warrant is sought for bulk data collection. He will also have an all-party panel that will review all secret information and report directly to him. Needless to say, this has anti-spying opponents of the legislation complaining it's entirely rubberstamp nonsense, and they're right. SIRC is toothless, and C-51 is basically giving WAY too much leeway to the security establishment. It should be repealed.
  5. Other Conservative Legislative Detritus: The Liberals have promised to repeal anti union bills, Canada Post reforms, et al. It's a list that effectively will reverse the past four years of Conservative legislation, but is notably missing reforms for the Child Pornography Witch Hunt Act (C-13) and the Look Over There Act (Barbaric Cultural Practices), which the Liberals supported. Thankfully, I will no longer be a second class citizen for having a British passport, since the Liberals have also promised to remove that part of Bill C-24. Bill C-50 (Citizen Voting Act) and that firearm transportation one are both going to be axed as well.
  6. ISIS, Syria and Iraq: The one area where I'm afraid no party in Canada has any appreciation for complexity, Trudeau has already moved on taking us out of the fight and into an advisory role. If you support the Kurds in Northern Iraq with training, hell mend ya when those chickens come home to roost.
  7. The Economy is Hamstrung: The Canadian economy is in a peculiar position - we are highly exposed to the volatility of the American market, we have a huge housing bubble, and oil is maintaining the low price. Not to mention other global factors (such as emerging market credit bubbles), we are staring down the barrel of a machine gun right now. Please also see the the Canadian Debt Thread for more woe.
  8. Free Trade: Old election issues are new again. The Trans Pacific Partnership is a bad joke. We have bilaterally negotiated agreements that do not contain the ISDS clauses that have made Canada "The Most Sued Nation in the World", Harper jumped into it at the 13th round, long after everyone else had. I have no reason to believe that if the USA ratifies (it may not) Trudeau wouldn't support this as he has FIPA (with China) and CETA (with Europe).
  9. Democratic Reform: Hopefully, the democratic reform of this government will be in favour of actual, you know, democracy. Trudeau has pledged that in 18 months we will see some form of new voting system. The current thread favourites are Straight Transferable Vote, or Mixed Member Proportional. It will be confusing as gently caress, but let's hope the thread pulls through.
  10. The Veterans: Will probably see a lot of cuts reversed, as detailed in the Liberal platform. :unsmith:
  11. Weed: Says they'll legalize weed. Don't all start lighting up at once. Colorado has already warned that it isn't as easy as it sounds, but decriminalization should be the first step. If it's going to be legal, Trudeau could do this ASAP.
  12. Military Procurement: I can't believe this is still an issue. Planes, jeeps, helicopters, ships, even uniforms. Every single one a loving mess with no end in sight.
  13. The Return of Keynes: Trudeau has abandoned the balanced budget rhetoric, and promised a slight budget deficit in order to increase spending in key needed areas. This spending won't even increase the GDP to debt ratio over that time, but will it actually be enough to get Canada off its heels? Canada needs massive investment in modernization, infrastructure, and has a displeased public service. It may need more than 30 billion over three years to fix.
Like I said, this list could be infinitely long to try and fix what the Conservatives broke, like science, the census, public servants' free speech.. Suffice it to say that I couldn't possibly imagine a better tool to keep abreast of it than a well-worn copy of the platform, this thread, and a good notebook.

Sources for News

I personally rely on a couple of things to get my news. First of all, if you can sign up to the iPolitics Brief (may require a subscription, but mine has expired and I still get it), you are guaranteed at least basic knowledge of what to search on Google News that day. Our major national news sources are, sadly, the National Post, Macleans, Globe and Mail, and the CBC. For partisan news on the left and right, you will want to check out Rabble.ca and Sun News Network, respectively. I also make judicious use of Blogging Tories. Good regionals include the Tyee for BC, Toronto Star, Ottawa Citizen, and I guess Cyberpresse or Le Devoir for Quebec?

Alternative news includes the CANADALAND podcast, the National Observer, and iPolitics.

Opinion editorials to watch include Chris Selley's pundit round up, Aaron Wherry, Paul Wells, Andrew Coyne, Johns Ibbitson and Ivison (I'm not convinced they're different people), Dan Gardner... this list is pretty leftist, but Coyne makes up for all of the others.

The rest of the time I use RSS feeds, Google news search alerts, and Twitter. If you're handy, you can use RSS feeds and your Twitter account in conjunction with something like Flipboard (as I do) to find articles that are making big waves. Watch #cdnpoli for a while to get an idea of the best twitter feeds to watch for serious retweeters, then follow them and watch who they're retweeting. Easy, and your smartphone can keep you up to date at all times.

Just Admit It You Scrolled Down To See This Part and You'll Have To Be Disappointed

The Only Person Who Matters Right Now, His Undeniable Sexiness Justin Trudeau


and

the Queen

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Nov 13, 2018

* # ¿ Oct 26, 2015 21:26
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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 14:46
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

quote:

Good Monday morning to you.

As the Conservative Party scrambles to fashion a future without the leader that defined it for nearly a decade, its moderate, Red Tory wing is manoeuvring to reconstitute the party as a centrist, national force that re-brands the Conservative label after years of what they describe as Stephen Harper’s toxic leadership. On Nov. 5, former prime minister Brian Mulroney will deliver a speech at Toronto’s Albany Club in which he is expected to make a case for post-Harper soul searching, which, as the party’s internal factions mobilize for control, translates as enough time to prevent the Reform wing of the party from taking over. Our Lisa Van Dusen has more.

“Whatever else political opponents may say about Justin Trudeau’s approach to reducing carbon emissions, they’re not likely to curse his lack of inclusiveness.” In addition to inviting the premiers to Paris next month for the United Nations summit on climate change, the prime minister designate has also invited Green Party Leader Elizabeth May and intends to invite NDP Leader Tom Mulcair, as well as whoever is leading the Conservatives at that point. As Joan Bryden reports, it’s all in stark contrast to Stephen Harper’s approach, which was more about exclusion.

For her part, Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne would like to see Trudeau work towards a major climate change deal with the U.S. and Mexico. “I think the more agreements we can get across jurisdictions, the better off we will be,” she told CTV yesterday. “And so my hope would be that he will be in conversation with those North American leaders. That can only support our position in the global discussion.”

Although Parliament is unlikely to reconvene before Christmas, when it does, there will be clear priorities. Among them? Tax cuts and new benefit cheques, Ralph Goodale tells Global.

As for who might be leading the Conservatives by then, Rob Nicholson has announced he’s throwing his hat into the interim role ring.

The Huffington Post’s Althia Raj has this look at the Liberals’ historic climb to power — and how the long writ did them a favour.

In Edmonton Mill Woods, the election’s still not over. A judge has ordered a recount in Conservative Tim Uppal’s loss to Liberal Amarjeet Sohi. Uppal, the incumbent, lost by 79 votes.

In Montmagny—L’Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, Liberal Marie-Josée Normand is asking for a recount in her loss to Conservative Bernard Généreux. He took the seat by just 265 votes.

On Friday, 43 New Democrats gathered around the phone for a teleconference with Tom Mulcair to talk about how their smaller caucus moves ahead after a thumping on election night. National campaign director Anne McGrath will be putting together a committee to do a post-mortem of the campaign, and defeated MP Paul Dewar has been named a senior transition advisor.

A decision is expected soon as to whether Trudeau and his family will move back into his childhood home at 24 Sussex or stay elsewhere until much-needed renovations are done. Former prime minister Jean Chretien told CTV’s Question Period that it’s about time the prime minister’s official residence got some tender loving care.

Chretien also had advice for Trudeau when it comes to foreign policy: “Talk to everybody and try to offer a solution.” That includes Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Many in the international community certainly seem keen on the fact they’ll be talking to him. As CP’s Mike Blanchfield reports, Werner Wnendt, the German ambassador, says his country welcomes Justin Trudeau’s post-election declaration to the world that Canada is “back.” They’re looking forward to his participation on climate change and diplomacy. Said one unnamed diplomat: The simple fact that he is not Harper “will be terrific.”

In provincial news, Alberta is expected to unveil the largest deficit budget in its history when the legislative session kicks off tomorrow. With slumping oil prices at play, the government was aiming for a $5.5-billion deficit this year and balanced books by 2019-2020. But finance minister Joe Ceci has hinted it will come in just shy of $6.5 billion for 2015-16 and take a little longer to balance the books.

Here and there:
  • Ethan Hawke joins the leadership of the Paq'tnkek First Nation and the Mi'gmawei Mawiomi Assembly for a water ceremony to protest oil and gas development in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
  • Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp. releases its fourth quarter housing market outlook report.
  • Statistics Canada releases registered apprenticeship training programs, 2013.
  • The Vancouver Board of Trade will host a keynote address by New Brunswick Premier Brian Gallant.


In an interview with 60 Minutes that aired last night, Joe Biden said he didn’t run for president because he couldn’t win. He also wouldn’t have gotten into the race just to stop Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton. "I've said from the beginning, 'Look, I like Hillary. Hillary and I get along together,'" he said. "The only reason to run is because ... I still think I could do a better job than anybody else could do.”

Getting out ahead of the report of an inquiry into the Iraq war, former British prime minister Tony Blair offered a qualified apology yesterday for using misleading intelligence and the failure to prepare for the aftermath of the invasion. But he didn’t apologize for the war itself and that’s spurred fury and claims of a cover-up.

There were elections in six countries yesterday, including Guatemala, where a TV comic was elected president. Here’s a look at what happened where.

In Featured Opinion:

In keeping with the theme of ‘real change,’ here’s something that wouldn’t have come out of the Conservative camp. Justin Trudeau has Facebooked a woman with a public response to a post she penned on election night. Shortly after the Liberals’ win, Casandra Fletcher wrote a letter to Trudeau, and included a top 10 list of things she hopes he can achieve while prime minister. Despite telling him that she "voted against the alternative" rather than for him, Trudeau thanked her for her vote "no matter the reason why you marked your ballot as you did.” Her post has been shared more than 46,000 times and Trudeau said he hopes she stays as engaged in the process as she is now. He added: “Feel free to send me another top 10 some time down the road!"

With that, have yourself a great day.
______________

International

National

Quebec

Ontario

Alberta

North

* # ¿ Oct 26, 2015 21:29
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
It's a 2 minute walk if you're slow.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 00:30
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
I'm already thinking of closing this thread.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 02:11
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Baudin posted:

How about instead of talking about what kind of furry we're the most attracted to we start talking about the new local MPs we just received from the glorious voting apparatus known as First Past the Post!

I'll start with a lovely young man (only 27 so not nearly old enough to be overburdened with knowledge of the ups and downs of life), a man that got the extremely important backing of a pro-life group. A fellow that had the unfortunate experience of having scandalous attack ads launched against him by his liberal opponent (which were memorable for having only things he posted about himself on his website as the "attack ad" facts). Yes let's give it up for Garnett Genuis, the new MP for Sherwood Park-Fort Saskatchewan. I get to deal with that for 4 more loving years.

A Genius that belongs in an Apple Store, not the House of Commons.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 04:11
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Helsing posted:

How many gay angels can dance on a homophobic pinhead?

One John Baird.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 04:37
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

JawKnee posted:

Kafka pls put in the OP that weed is not yet legal, to be updated when weed is in fact legal, so folks need not drift past the OP

Just to gently caress with CI, done.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 06:16
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Jordan7hm posted:

Good new thread.

Do you have links to articles from security / privacy people who say that the suggested c51 changes don't go far enough?

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/06/why-the-liberal-party-defence-of-its-support-for-bill-c-51-falls-flat/

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 06:19
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Is there a reason the OP this time around is much more subjective? The last OPs have always given just a blanket statement of issues at play, but this one goes into some pretty opinionated stuff (like repealing C-51 for example). I always liked the other OPs because they very journalistically outlined the major topics and issues without being on one side or another of the issue.

I wrote quite a few of those. I don't think it's out of line to remind people that Trudeau is a lily-livered pretty boy who refused to have a position for a long time.

Also, shut up, I tried very hard to not be critical up there, you'll hurt my feelings, you fascist.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 06:23
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Okay, well nit pick away, you feckless thug.

edit: I'm not going to ram anything down your throat, C-51 is a massive increase in information sharing and, just on the principle of it, we need to be extraordinarily cautious. Between this and the "you're with us or with the child pornographers" bill, the Liberals seem to have no problems with increasing the spying that they pioneered in 2003. I also think that Trudeau's reforms are going to be the first thing he forgets to do, and he'll throw a bone or two to distract the media from this incredibly non-sexy issue whenever it comes up. Just watch him.

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Oct 27, 2015

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 06:28
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Sure, but this doesn't negate my point about being fecklessly unbiased in the OP. Declaring the necessity to repeal a bill is a pretty strong indictment of it, don't you think?

It'd be better if you outlined some of the common criticisms and reasons why people are advocating to repeal the bill versus the Trudeau/Liberal position of reform. This would serve as a better tool for people new to the debate rather than painting it one way or the other.

The debate about reform vs repeal to me centers around what constitutes necessary checks and balances towards new powers. The CSIS Act is already an incredibly robust act given our international partners (it being the first ever piece of legislation that actually attempts to legally mandate an intelligence organization). So, any new introduction of powers into the act ought to be implemented with corresponding oversight. Though, I really disagree that SIRC is somehow a neutered organization considering it has the mandate and power to demand every single reporting or product ever done by CSIS. The problems where it falls apart is, as mentioned before, "following the thread" between inter-agency operations.

Also, the debate around having a Parliamentary Committee has just been taken for granted as well, despite some of the lovely controversies we've seen with the UK's attempt at the same approach in politicizing intelligence mandates (for example, see http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...d-10064105.html). I think beefing up SIRC is a better option.
You're gonna have to hulk that bad boy up, then. I don't want to hear about civil liberties being toasted by Trudeau's all-party Secret Avengers 3 years after the fact.

quote:

The small group watching over Canada’s spy agency says it was purposely devised to be a limited, after-the-fact “review” body – not an all-seeing “oversight” committee that would vet spy operations.

During three days of lively debate in the Commons over the controversial anti-terror Bill C-51, Public Safety Minister Steven Blaney, Justice Minister Peter MacKay and other Conservative MPs have repeatedly characterized the Security Intelligence Review Committee (SIRC) as providing oversight of the spy agency, known as the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS). Prime Minister Stephen Harper has done the same.

Yet SIRC has no such mandate, its spokeswoman said Monday. “We review CSIS. We look at past activities,” to ensure they are lawful, appropriate and effective, SIRC’s Lindsay Jackson said.

“Recently the terms ‘oversight’ and ‘review’ have become almost interchangeable but they do actually mean separate things.

“Direct oversight implies a certain amount of involvement in the active political decision-making or the operational decision-making, and we are not involved in the operational decision-making,” at CSIS.
* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 07:55
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
edit: also, can you stop being concerned about the OP? Nobody reads it after the first page, you dummy

Frankly, Swagger, I just don't think you get what a civil liberty is and how much of a failure this bill is at respecting them.

Let's go through the platform on C-51 as per Trudeau Metre:
  1. Guarantee that all Canadian Security Intelligence Service warrants respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. pablum
  2. Establish an all-party national security oversight committee. the Secret Avengers
  3. Ensure that Canadians are not limited from lawful protests and advocacy. who defines lawful?
  4. Require that government review all appeals by Canadians on the no-fly list. they are not required to actually tell you that anything has happened
  5. Define “terrorist propaganda” more clearly. thank god there will be a definition
  6. Limit Communications Security Establishment’s powers by requiring a warrant to engage in the surveillance of Canadians. rubber stamp
  7. Require a statutory review of the full Anti-Terrorism Act after 3 years. sunset clauses are good, just hope they allow a free vote on this WHOOPS!
  8. Create the Office of the Community Outreach and Counter-radicalization Coordinator. what the gently caress does this even mean?
One of the only redeeming qualities is the promise not to do COINTELPRO on people they don't like. Thank god, they promised.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 08:04
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

Well, unfortunately, I may not "understand what a civil liberty is" but those on the other side of the fence don't really understand what a national security is.
Wow, you really got me there, swagger. The rhetorical spin you put on that one is just out of this world. :rolleyes:

C-51 solves a problem that doesn't exist, and is doing so in a way that is hastily thrown together by a power-hungry Conservative government. Trudeau's reforms will mean poo poo, as a whipped sunset vote 3 years from now will still be under a loving Liberal government. A judge issuing a warrant for bulk data collection also means poo poo because they have no idea what they'll find. And information sharing amongst agencies means some bulk data could be sent to the RCMP who then trips over their own dick and rapes you to death because they're incompetent.

It should be repealed and a framework not created by the Conservatives should be dreamed up with guys like Michael Geist at the helm.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 15:16
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

jm20 posted:

Don't be a fascist


Thread title: people who contribute to oppressive political movements should be criticized imo

The joke that follows the colon is the thread itself.

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 15:23
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Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Swagger, I cannot see anything in the document you posted that is convincing. On the other hand, I have been reading widely respected expert Michael Geist, who is very concerned about the lack of actual oversight (not a toothless review or a secret tribunal reporting to the prime minister) over information sharing with broad definitions. Not to mention the liberals have intimated they will be expanding the bulk collection, rather than collapsing it. This is hardly surprising - they started the spying apparatus expansion over a decade ago. Then, like now, they ignored advice that supplementary legislation like CSIS act or the privacy act need to be revamped for the new reality. The liberals have not said anything regarding that.

We now know a lot about how state spying trends to get completely out of control from the NSA leaks, so what keeps driving you to claim it'll be okay this time?

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/03/a-conversation-about-bill-c-51-how-the-anti-terrorism-bill-undermines-canadian-privacy/

* # ¿ Oct 27, 2015 23:56
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
I'm upset about the regressiveness of these taxes, it should just be a one hundred percent tax on PT6A.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 00:33
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Kafka Esq. posted:

Swagger, I cannot see anything in the document you posted that is convincing. On the other hand, I have been reading widely respected expert Michael Geist, who is very concerned about the lack of actual oversight (not a toothless review or a secret tribunal reporting to the prime minister) over information sharing with broad definitions. Not to mention the liberals have intimated they will be expanding the bulk collection, rather than collapsing it. This is hardly surprising - they started the spying apparatus expansion over a decade ago. Then, like now, they ignored advice that supplementary legislation like CSIS act or the privacy act need to be revamped for the new reality. The liberals have not said anything regarding that.

We now know a lot about how state spying trends to get completely out of control from the NSA leaks, so what keeps driving you to claim it'll be okay this time?

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/2015/03/a-conversation-about-bill-c-51-how-the-anti-terrorism-bill-undermines-canadian-privacy/

Swagger, I'd still like to get a response to this, a real privacy expert saying you're wrong. Would you be a sweetheart and respond?

The most troubling thing is that SIRC only watches a few of the agencies with access to the information that can be mined up, as noted by the privacy commissioner:

quote:

At this early stage, I can say that I am concerned with the breadth of the new authorities to be conferred by the proposed new Security of Canada Information Sharing Act. This Act would seemingly allow departments and agencies to share the personal information of all individuals, including ordinary Canadians who may not be suspected of terrorist activities, for the purpose of detecting and identifying new security threats. It is not clear that this would be a proportional measure that respects the privacy rights of Canadians. In the public discussion on Bill C-51, it will be important to be clear about whose information would be shared with national security agencies, for which specific purpose and under what conditions, including any applicable safeguards.

I am also concerned that the proposed changes to information sharing authorities are not accompanied by measures to fill gaps in the national security oversight regime. Three national security agencies in Canada are subject to dedicated independent oversight of all of their activities. However, most of the organizations that would receive and use more personal information under the legislation introduced today are not. Gaps in the oversight regime were identified long ago, notably by Justice O’Connor in the report he made at the conclusion of the Arar Inquiry. Extending the jurisdiction of oversight bodies would be an important step towards the greater transparency that Canadians expect.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 05:00
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

In fact, the new information sharing framework has even more specific definitions than the s.12 mandate of CSIS! Read the legislative summary I posted, they show a side by side table examining the two.

You mean the part where they change will or necessary into wiggle words? Don't be an idiot, the definitions are both broad. The argument had been made that they made the definition broader to ensnare more people, but I don't think that was going to be too hard anyway given the old definition. My argument is the same as the CBA and Geist, that no oversight exists for the information sharing and increased spot powers they built into C-51 and C-13. The agencies have been massively expanded, the warrant process will probably be as terrible as FISA turned out to be in America, SIRC only has authority to review the activities of a few of these agencies and is slow and toothless.

Frankly, I don't think you know what you're reading in these bills. You can't simply wave away the criticisms without even a citation. Give me the page in which they show a side by side comparison of how they tightened up the CSIS mandate, because all I see are the loosening of the preventive measures clauses and the criminal code being butchered.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 06:03
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Melian Dialogue posted:

I don't really have any interest with debating this with you if you're just going to hand wave away my points as "not reading the bill" or that Im simply being an idiot, it doesnt really show me any good faith that you're interested in the points Im making.

No, obviously, when someone pushes back on "here's the thing, read it!" by saying "what you said is in there isn't in there", you should run away.

quote:

Good Wednesday morning to you.

There may not be a whole lot of time left in 2015, but the Liberal government is by all accounts intent on ticking a few large items off the to-do list by the time the end of the year rolls around — not the least of which is opening Parliament and delivering a speech from the throne, CBC has learned. Other priorities will include legislation to lower taxes on the middle class. When it comes to creating new laws around doctor-assisted suicide, word is the Liberals will ask the Supreme Court for an extension.

Of course when it comes to refugees, the question for some is whether the government can settle 25,000 of them by the end of 2015?

And what of the long-form census? StatsCan is waiting to possibly reinstate it.

As CP’s Bruce Cheadle notes, the Liberals also have a slew of Constitutional challenges to Conservative laws to deal with. So many, in fact, that “sorting out which battles to fight and which litigation to delay, reroute or drop will have federal Justice department officials working like busy air traffic controllers this fall.”

After meeting with Justin Trudeau yesterday at Queen’s Park, a member of Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s government told CBC that the prime minister-designate “will direct federal bureaucrats to work with their counterparts in Ontario on the implementation of a provincial retirement pension plan.”

Looking to repair what’s been a tense relationship with Ottawa in recent years, Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Paul Davis has reached out to Trudeau in a letter with five issues of 'paramount importance' to the province that he’d like to see given 'immediate attention.'

Meanwhile, The Globe's Adam Radwanski reports that Trudeau will dance with the ones that brung him on the senior staffing front, naming co-campaign chair Katie Telford as his PMO chief of staff and his closest advisor, Gerald Butts, as principal secretary.

In the wake of the Conservatives' defeat last week, it’s now packing time at 24 Sussex. Moving trucks were at the prime minister’s residence yesterday as Stephen Harper and his family get ready to head west to Calgary. The Canadian Press has learned that he’s spent a good part of the last few days on the phone with Conservative MPs who lost their seats and accepting some responsibility for their loss.

One of those calls was probably to Paul Calandra, his handpicked parliamentary secretary, who told CBC’s Power and Politics yesterday that it was a 'mistake' to focus on the niqab and barbaric practices during the election campaign, as it cost the party votes with new Canadians.

In some ridings -- three to be exact -- the election still isn’t over. Yesterday, Elections Canada said a recount has been ordered in the Quebec riding of Montmagny-L’Islet-Kamouraska-Riviere-du-Loup. There will also be recounts in Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte and Edmonton Mill Woods.

The “Canadian Caper” has been laid to rest. At the memorial service for heroic former ambassador Ken Taylor, things were kept light as per his wishes, but he was remembered as a legend. Joe Clark, who authorized the mission that saved a group of Americans from Iranians who’d stormed the U.S. embassy in Tehran, said Taylor’s courage earned the admiration of people around the world. “Yet, it was a very Canadian thing to do,” Clark said, adding Taylor had an “instinct to be gracious.” Colin Perkel has more.

Ghislain Picard, chief of the Assembly of the First Nations of Quebec and Labrador, has given Quebec Premier Philippe Couillard 24 hours to meet aboriginal leaders in the province to discuss allegations of abuse against native women by provincial police officers in Val d’Or. Picard says the town “is in crisis” and no longer has confidence in the country’s police forces.

For the first time in more than 20 years, the Alberta government will be forced to borrow to cover its operating costs thanks to plummeting oil prices and a province-wide recession. In its first budget, the Alberta NDP government says the province’s $3.2-billion contingency fund will be drained over the next two years to help cover some of this year’s budget shortfall — pegged at $6.1 billion. The government pledges a return to fiscal balance by 2019-20. Our Kelsey Johnson has the details.

Former Toronto mayor Rob Ford has hit a “bump in the road” in his recovery from cancer. He’s expected to share more details about his condition in the coming days.

Here and there:
  • Statistics Canada releases a study on emergency preparedness and resilience in Canada, 2014.
  • Gov. Gen. David Johnston and Sharon Johnston attend the Royal-Mach-Gaenssien Prize for Mental Health Research award ceremony.
  • Retired Lt.-Gen. Romeo Dallaire appears at a Writers Festival event to discuss the importance of art in how we process war and loss.
  • Sentencing date for Sen. Patrick Brazeau who pleaded guilty in September to reduced charges of assault and possession of cocaine after a more serious charge of sexual assault was dropped.
  • The Ontario Securities Commission releases further details of its proposed whistleblower program.
  • Alberta Premier Rachel Notley to give details on the Calgary Cancer Centre and other health investments in the 2015 budget.
  • Princess Astrid of Belgium leads a 200-delegate trade mission to B.C. Through Oct. 28.
  • Migrant worker groups in Vancouver launch a coalition to call on Justin Trudeau's Liberal government to end the practice of tying migrant workers visa to specific employers.


With top envoys from the United States, Russia, Arab and European nations set to sit down to talk about the Syrian conflict, it looks like Iran will be invited to the table too. However, state department spokesman John Kirby said it’s not clear if Iran's leaders will attend the talks, which get underway in Vienna tomorrow.

A hospital in north Yemen run by the medical aid group Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) was destroyed earlier this week by a missile strike, but the Saudi-led coalition denies its planes were responsible for the air strike.

Margaret Trudeau is in the unique position of having been the wife of a prime minister and the mother of a prime minister to-be. She sat down with CTV yesterday to talk about what that means.

In Featured Opinion:
  • Jeff Sallot lays out the options facing the rookie PM as he tackles one of the most troublesome planks in the Liberals' election platform: the elimination of first-past-the-post and the introduction of an electoral model that more closely reflects how Canadians actually vote. But can we trust Trudeau to abandon a system that gave him majority power with less than 40 per cent of the popular vote?
  • It's too cold in winter, too hot in summer. The plumbing's dodgy, as is the wiring. The windows are cracked and the air conditioners are too loud. It all sounds like that basement apartment you had in college — but it's 24 Sussex, the official residence of the prime minister, and it's a mess. Can we fix it? Should we? L. Ian MacDonald has a couple of ideas.
  • The fearmongering industry took a hit last week with the defeat of the Harper Conservatives. Does this mean Canadian federal politics has entered a new golden age of civility, where we'll all link hands and sing folk songs along the Rideau? Steve Burgess says: don't bet on it.


And finally, one of the most beloved MPs in Ottawa, Peter Stoffer is spending his final days in office similar to how he spent much of his time when he wasn’t at his desk in the House of Commons – with his door open, oldies playing through a stereo and offering beverages to anyone – regardless of their political stripe. Our Janice Dickson dropped by to hear about the fun times, the trouble he’s gotten into and just how many lobsters were sent as peace offerings over the years.

Have yourself a great day.
____________


International

National

Atlantic

Quebec

Ontario

Prairies

Alberta

British Columbia

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Oct 28, 2015

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 14:18
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

flakeloaf posted:

Serious question, at what point does the Sun run so far afoul of basic journalistic standards that someone holds them to account?

lol

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 15:58
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

flakeloaf posted:

That's actually kinda reasonable. In 2015, a piece of paper that describes the stuff that happened yesterday is of limited utility.
Frankly, I get most of my NEWS from twitter accounts, and I get most of my analysis from think tanks and periodicals. Only when I need to know very local news, such as who/when/how someone was in whatever situation, do I turn to traditional news. Even then, I tend to find the links from my Twitter aggregators.

I really do not need somebody to analyze breaking news within a few hours of it happening, since they'll just be giving me foundationless speculation. I honestly rarely feel enlightened by that kind of news.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 17:05
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

jfood posted:

I know it's hard to fathom, but you want it this way. I believe he's a first time offender on a couple of non-indictables so jail-time isn't a particularly great option. We do want justice to be equitable and reasoned, don't we?

Yeah.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 17:16
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

flakeloaf posted:

Cocaine possession is straight-indictable, isn't it? I honestly don't know, which is shameful but hey I'm out of practice.


There is room between "absolute discharge" and "time in jail for shoving your finger in a woman's vagina while trying to kick her down the stairs". Even a conditional discharge would've been better than the nothing he got. One day. A one-dollar fine. A record of some kind that you and I both know will just be pardoned immediately. Instead, the message that we get is that it's not recommended to do what he did, but if you do, nothing will happen to you.

e: That aside, it is not generally in the interests of justice to put sitting senators or parliamentarians in jail, and doing so would normally tend to cost society more than it gains us, so in that sense a jail term would be a totally fanciful thing for anyone to expect.

The decision will make it clear.

* # ¿ Oct 28, 2015 17:28
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Rime posted:

Whoa guys, whoa, I've just had a crazy drunk idea:

What if we made it mandatory that parties fully dissolve after two consecutive campaigns, that party names are banned from reuse for twenty years, and all parties are handed equal funding from a federally controlled "trust fund".

:derp:

A fund that is preferably controlled by some kind of Protectorate...

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 02:14
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

JohnnyCanuck posted:

Craig Scott is pretty salty over losing, isn't he?

He was the shadow cabinet minister of democratic reform, and he would know.

Disclaimer: I worked in his constituency office for a few years.

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 02:35
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

JohnnyCanuck posted:

I don't care what he was shadow minister for*, how does he know that after repeatedly promising - both before and after the election - that this would be the last Canadian Federal election under FPTP that the government won't honour its promise?

Also, his concession Facebook post was super salty, and it sure doesn't look like he's over it yet.

*Unless he's, like, the Shadow Minister, and he protects Canada from magical threats

Would you be very surprised that the Liberal government would introduce a non-proportional voting system? That's rich.

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 02:54
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Lustful Man Hugs posted:

Small world. I was volunteering in his office (and then his campaign) this year. Would I have seen you around?

Do you know Timothy or Bridgette?

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 06:59
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Lustful Man Hugs posted:

Yep. They were staffers on the campaign too, and of course they were at the office as well.

Small world.

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 07:08
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Pinterest Mom posted:

"Employment Minister Pierre Poilievre is also said to be eyeing a run at the top job."


Hey, at least the Liberals and Pierre will agree that you're either with us or the child pornographers.

* # ¿ Oct 29, 2015 22:05
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

jm20 posted:

  • You quoted nothing related to C-51, nothing
  • Italy shared wiretaps with us, legitimacy will likely need to be tested to see if it violated charter rights :laugh:
  • Mobsters aren't terrorists, terrorism is "bad for business"
tl;dr Get a loving [domestic] warrant for wiretaps shitlord

I was just going to say, "do you?" But yours was better.

Edit: eugh, Harper's drummer was found guilty of sex acts with a 13 year old. Steve really had no idea who he was working with.

Kafka Esq. fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Oct 30, 2015

* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 12:25
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
To the RCMP investigators viewing this thread:

I'm not WITH them.

I'm just NEAR them.

* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 15:51
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Square Peg posted:

If the G20 is any indication, that don't mean poo poo.

You're preaching to the choir.

* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 16:16
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
It's easy if they plea bargain!

* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 16:44
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Unions are good, guilds are bad.

* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 18:08
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

quote:

Evening all,

The Lead:

There was good news and less good news in Prime Minister-designate Justin Trudeau's economic briefing this morning. The Canadian economy actually grew in August, but only by 0.1 per cent — a slight swing back toward the five months of recessionary shrinkage that became a campaign issue for Stephen Harper, despite expansion of 0.3 per cent in July and 0.4 per cent in June. And — in what seems almost a satire of the transition cliché whereby the newly elected party finds out the cupboard has been left bare — the Finance Department's monthly fiscal monitor showed today that the federal government's surplus for this fiscal year has been cut nearly in half, as it ran a $2.3-billion deficit in August. That compares with a deficit of roughly $300 million in the same month last year, three months before the global oil price crash. :aaa::aaa::aaa::aaa:

In Canada:

In the post-Harper leadership realignment on the Conservative side, Alberta MP and former senior cabinet minister Rona Ambrose and Edmonton MP Mike Lake have declared bids for the interim leadership of the party. They join Diane Finley, Rob Nicholson, Candice Bergen and Erin O'Toole in the fray. The vote is Nov. 5. As our Deane McRobie reports, the Conservatives are contemplating a preliminary vote on whether senators will be allowed to vote on the position.

In the latest move in the Senate's re-branding efforts, senators will soon be asked to give their blessing to an arm's-length body to oversee their spending practices, the Speaker of the Senate says. Leo Housakos said a proposal to create the independent oversight body will be put before Conservative, Liberal and Independent senators when Parliament returns.

"Fundraising results during Canada’s just-concluded federal election appear to confirm that money can’t buy you love," reports CP. The Liberals won the Oct. 19 election but raised the least amount of money of the three main parties during the third quarter — $7.3 million.

Twenty years after the last referendum on Quebec sovereignty, Parti Québécois Leader Pierre Karl Peladeau says Quebecers shouldn’t have any illusions that Ottawa would want to participate in negotiating the terms of another one. “It’s rather unrealistic,” Peladeau tells CP in an interview.

In an interview with CP, Jody Wilson-Raybould, a former Assembly of First Nations regional chief-turned-federal MP, says she's confident the Liberal government can reshape Ottawa's strained relationship with Canada's Aboriginal Peoples. The MP-elect for Vancouver-Granville described aboriginal affairs as one of the major policy areas that Trudeau's incoming government will have to address.

Israel's ambassador to Canada, Rafael Barak, has confirmed that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu phoned Trudeau last Friday to offer his congratulations. Barak said the call was "warm" and left his country assured that relations between Canada and the Jewish state will remain strong.

In Kelsey Johnson's Sprout blog: No regrets, but some jobs left unfinished, Ritz says; plus, all the other ag news you need to know.

In Mackenzie Scrimshaw's Drilldown blog: Resource industry fuels new GDP number, plus all your other resource politics news.

Internationally:

In Washington, confirming a shift in the U.S. strategy against the Islamic State, the White House announced that the United States will be deploying 50 non-combat Special Operations forces to northern Syria to advise and assist Kurdish fighters. Meanwhile, in Vienna, senior diplomats from 19 countries were negotiating a possible political resolution to the uprising-turned-civil-war-turned-proxy-pile-on, with the U.S., Saudi Arabia, Russia and Iran failing to reach agreement on the fate of Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad but agreeing to meet again within two weeks.

In the ever-colourful U.S. 2016 presidential narrative, the Republican Party is revolting against the existing presidential debate process in the wake of the widely panned CNBC event Wednesday night. The Republican National Committee suspended its relationship with NBC today after word broke of a looming mutiny against the RNC's control of the process.

The EU today sided with the U.S. in the friction over Beijing's novel assertion of territorial rights in international waters through the construction of artificial islands in the South China Sea. Earlier, China’s naval commander, Admiral Wu Shengli, had this to say about the U.S. decision to send a destroyer into international waters near the disputed Spratly Islands: “If the United States continues with these kinds of dangerous, provocative acts, there could well be a seriously pressing situation between frontline forces from both sides on the sea and in the air, or even a minor incident that sparks war.”

In Other Headlines:

Noteworthy:

In our own weekend opinion round-up, Alan Freeman says there's a reason why we only name airports after dead people, and Fred Litwin lays out how the Conservatives can avoid another trouncing in four years' time.

For foreign affairs and political junkies, David Holbrooke's HBO documentary about his late father, the mercurial middleman Richard Holbrooke, premieres Monday. Here's Todd Purdum's review of "The Diplomat" in Vanity Fair, and this morning's Morning Joe interview with David Holbrooke.

The Kicker:

For our Friday EB musical selection, a long-playing choice to mark the breathtaking political expediency of Ryan Cleary's post-election, pre-election jump directly from the NDP to the Conservatives. Here's the unmistakable Miles Davis.

And, for our last kicker of Halloween Week, our second untethered-giant-inflatable-object story in as many days: "Giant, inflatable runaway pumpkin terrorizes Arizona drivers."

Good night and have a Happy Halloween.
* # ¿ Oct 30, 2015 22:52
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)

Jordan7hm posted:

I am really happy this person is no longer an MP.

More goons in parliament, I say.

* # ¿ Nov 2, 2015 03:26
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-zuqCHCbbc

* # ¿ Nov 3, 2015 00:47
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Cynical support of CI's iconoclastic bullshit requires at least a mention of peacekeeping.

Edit: hope you enjoy being in Ezra Levant's company.

* # ¿ Nov 3, 2015 16:20
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Trudeau is such a dork, walking down the drive repeating "sunny ways, sunny ways".

* # ¿ Nov 4, 2015 16:01
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# ¿ Apr 29, 2024 14:46
  • Quote
Kafka Esq.
Jan 1, 2005

"If you ever even think about calling me anything but 'The Crab' I will go so fucking crab on your ass you won't even see what crab'd your crab" -The Crab(TM)
Tonda MacCharles @TondaMacC

Brison, Duncan, McCauley, Morneau,Sajjan, Leblanc, Foote, Dion, Hajdul, Goodale, McKenna, Garneau, Philpott, Bennett.

Obviously Dion for Environment, Garneau for State, McKenna for International Cooperation/State?

edit: Morneau has been outed as Finance.

* # ¿ Nov 4, 2015 16:14
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