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Namtab posted:Yuri bears already saved animated lesbians Sorry, I meant literal lesbians. Figurative lesbians, allegorical lesbians, metaphorical lesbians and symbolic lesbians are all acceptable of course.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:20
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a cartoon duck posted:Sorry, I meant literal lesbians. Figurative lesbians, allegorical lesbians, metaphorical lesbians and symbolic lesbians are all acceptable of course. So like, lesbians who are very pedantic about things?
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Jan 13, 2016 20:21
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a cartoon duck posted:Sorry, I meant literal lesbians. Figurative lesbians, allegorical lesbians, metaphorical lesbians and symbolic lesbians are all acceptable of course. Don't make me look for Sakura Trick gifs Because I will I will
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Jan 13, 2016 20:22
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Namtab posted:My understanding is that anata can also be more impersonal (a general "you"), or used to make serious formal statements. It's generally only "rude" if used towards a superior (for example, mami is ok to use "anata" with both girls because she is in a socially superior postition, but for either of them to use "anata" would be rude). "Anata" is only rude in certain situations, but it is very impersonal. "anta" "kimi" or "omae" would be ruder. If that's the case, Madoka should be more polite, not less. This is fundamentally the issue, Madoka never talks like this previously to my knowledge. Why is she doing it now? It feels like a rather drastic character change, especially in light of this Madoka being the "records of the person Madoka was before she ceased to exist". Ytlaya posted:Does this mean that the rest of the "normal" world just continues existing outside of this new world? I was under the impression that Homura somehow rewrote existence. No, her Dark Orb encases the entire universe, it's just the container for her Labyrinth.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:23
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The kind of lesbian that would post in a Madoka analysis thread and debate the precise meanings and connotations of a pronoun.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:23
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a cartoon duck posted:The kind of lesbian that would post in a Madoka analysis thread and debate the precise meanings and connotations of a pronoun. id do that first thing
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Jan 13, 2016 20:25
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Lord Justice posted:If that's the case, Madoka should be more polite, not less. This is fundamentally the issue, Madoka never talks like this previously to my knowledge. Why is she doing it now? It feels like a rather drastic character change, especially in light of this Madoka being the "records of the person Madoka was before she ceased to exist". My other thought would be to not read too much into a single line in what is essentially a teaser trailer, but we've all got to remain true to our posting gimmicks
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Jan 13, 2016 20:25
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Namtab posted:My other thought would be to not read too much into a single line in what is essentially a teaser trailer, but we've all got to remain true to our posting gimmicks I'm not, it's one part of the larger piece. Homura spending time with someone and trying to hide it, Mami attempting to interfere, the ring on her finger, and the red thread of fate. Edit: A final note from Tae Kim: "Please do not use 「あなた」 just like you would use the word "you" in English. In directly addressing people, there are three levels of politeness: 1) Using the person's name with the appropriate suffix, 2) Not using anything at all, 3) Using 「あなた」. In fact, by the time you get to three, you're dangerously in the area of being rude. Most of the time, you do not need to use anything at all because you are directly addressing the person." Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 20:28
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wouldn't the red thread be a reference to homu's ribbon though if you wanted to say the ribbon is red as a reference to that trope, i could buy it
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Jan 13, 2016 20:30
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Lord Justice posted:A final note from Tae Kim: You can use it to sound more formal dude
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Jan 13, 2016 20:31
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Endorph posted:also madoka magica didn't invent wishes and angst if toku fans are any indication, kamen rider ryuki invented wishes and angst, and madoka innovated by taking these and adding an actual ending
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Jan 13, 2016 20:33
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Endorph posted:wouldn't the red thread be a reference to homu's ribbon I'm not entirely sure if the red thread of fate and Madoka's ribbons are entirely related, but it is a possibility I've been meaning to look into and analyze.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:33
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Lord Justice posted:I'm not entirely sure if the red thread of fate and Madoka's ribbons are entirely related, but it is a possibility I've been meaning to look into and analyze. Urobachi with the long play metaphor
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Jan 13, 2016 20:35
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They're both red and kind of thready, I'm going to allow it.
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Jan 13, 2016 20:37
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Sakurazuka posted:Don't make me look for Sakura Trick gifs Too late. Anime lesbians is so 2014   The question is, can Homura's love defy gravity?
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Jan 13, 2016 20:39
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in the series ending Madoka gives the ribbons to Homura to link them together against the laws of the universe, I thought that was clear cut. 
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Jan 13, 2016 20:47
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Space Flower posted:in the series ending Madoka gives the ribbons to Homura to link them together against the laws of the universe, I thought that was clear cut. But was it to link them together as a gay couple?
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Jan 13, 2016 20:49
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a symbolic umbilical cord as madoka ascends to be the mother of all magical girls
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Jan 13, 2016 20:51
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Space Flower posted:in the series ending Madoka gives the ribbons to Homura to link them together against the laws of the universe, I thought that was clear cut. ] Don't cut the ribbons please, clearly or otherwise
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Jan 13, 2016 20:51
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hosed up opinion: what if madoka gave homura the ribbons because homura was her friend, and there's literally nothing more to read into it than that?????
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Jan 13, 2016 20:54
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Namtab posted:hosed up opinion: what if madoka gave homura the ribbons because homura was her friend, and there's literally nothing more to read into it than that????? Shinbo loves having nice and just magical girl give her ribbons to part-time antagonist turned friendly magical girl, as proven by Nanoha Whether that supports your idea is left to interpretation
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Jan 13, 2016 20:58
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Like I said, I'm not completely sure if the red thread of fate and the ribbons are related. It's why I mentioned the red thread specifically and not the ribbons. Besides which, imagery can have more than one meaning, and change over time. And again, there's more to it than just the ribbons or just the pronoun. For example, why is Homura wearing a ring where she is? Why is she attempting to hide spending time with someone?
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Jan 13, 2016 21:01
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Lord Justice posted:Like I said, I'm not completely sure if the red thread of fate and the ribbons are related. It's why I mentioned the red thread specifically and not the ribbons. Besides which, imagery can have more than one meaning, and change over time. And again, there's more to it than just the ribbons or just the pronoun. For example, why is Homura wearing a ring where she is? Why is she attempting to hide spending time with someone? I'm not denying that homura is in love with madoka. I'm denying the reverse
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Jan 13, 2016 21:02
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Namtab posted:I'm not denying that homura is in love with madoka. I'm denying the reverse In that case we agree. I don't think things are as simple as this analysis implies, and Madoka's role not nearly as clear cut. But I'll be getting into that in my next analysis. Lord Justice fucked around with this message at 21:07 on Jan 13, 2016 |
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Jan 13, 2016 21:03
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congratulations, everyone, we have picked the worst possible argument
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Jan 13, 2016 21:04
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Endorph posted:congratulations, everyone, we have picked the worst possible argument Ytlaya posted:^^^ Definitely Valvrave. Saki's rape by an unconscious Haruto was clearly a direct allusion to Madoka's unintended emotional abuse of Homura.
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Jan 13, 2016 21:06
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Guys LJ is just trying to provide some thematic context and fan theories for some short trailers that have come out (at least that's my understanding), you can save kicking him around for when he says something conclusive that's actually dumb. This is really just a form of spitballing because nobody has any clue what the final possible product will be like.
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Jan 13, 2016 21:08
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the second worst possible argument
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Jan 13, 2016 21:08
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Twiddy posted:Guys LJ is just trying to provide some thematic context and fan theories for some short trailers that have come out (at least that's my understanding), you can save kicking him around for when he says something conclusive that's actually dumb. This is really just a form of spitballing because nobody has any clue what the final possible product will be like. I'm looking forward to seeing pink madoka and purple madoka interact OP
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Jan 13, 2016 21:09
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Endorph posted:
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Jan 13, 2016 21:09
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HOMURA AND MADOKA WANT TO KISS
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Twiddy posted:Guys LJ is just trying to provide some thematic context and fan theories for some short trailers that have come out (at least that's my understanding), you can save kicking him around for when he says something conclusive that's actually dumb. This is really just a form of spitballing because nobody has any clue what the final possible product will be like. Thank you. Yes, this is my intended goal here. I could very well be wrong about this, and I'm more than willing to admit my evidence is slight, and even said as such in my original analysis. I would actually like to be wrong on this particular point, but there's a lot of weird coincidences here in the Concept Movie which I feel I can't ignore either.
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Jan 13, 2016 21:12
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I'm actually engaging with LJ in this thread, OP.
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Jan 13, 2016 21:13
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kiss my rear end
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Jan 13, 2016 21:16
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Davincie posted:kiss
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Jan 13, 2016 21:21
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Hell, I believe it
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Jan 13, 2016 21:22
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I've always, or at least when I watched it a second time, seen the series as a story of Homura coming to terms with the death of a friend. Like her story is basically being a socially awkward loser nerd coming to a new environment and turns suicidal when she remains all friendless and alone, when someone actually befriends her and things suddenly look up. Life's not poo poo anymore, everything is all sunshine and rainbows, up until her new BFF contracts a bad case of magic and dies. Homura got her one support pillar knocked off from under her and still being that socially awkward nerd she has no real coping mechanisms to speak of so she just refuses to accept her death and copes with it by just reliving her happy memories with her and going through what ifs, except this is an incredibly lovely method of coping so even her memories are gonna look more and more bleak. Over the course of this Homura gets progressively absorbed in her grief and memories for Madoka that she turns distant and stand-offish to the other friends he made, who end up just seeing her as some selfish, cold jerk while she just rejects them as not knowing Madoka like she did, so what would they know. Witches are basically a proof of this bleak world view for Homura, friends are either there to die on you or to become monsters and turn on you, with no alternatives or middle grounds to that. Of course that kinda outlook is basically soul-crushing, especially when you're a grieving teenager, so when Homura inevitably reads a kind of make-or-break moment she remembers that Madoka was actually a cool and good person who wouldn't want her friend to be bitter, lonely and dead. So when she finally learns to deal with her grief and move on it changes her world view so much it might as well be world-changing. Life's still a bit poo poo, people still die and life still throws monsters at you, but after moving past her cynical world view she can reconcile with her other friends and tackle that poo poo together with them. Plus after she's not absorbed in her own grief anymore she finally sees that just because people aren't talking about their dead sister and daughter anymore doesn't mean they forgot about her and they all dealt with that loss just like she did. So when Lord Justice says Madoka is being abuse to Homura by making her suffer and die before meeting her I just think well duh, before you meet the dearly departed again you have to do some departing yourself. Granted, all that stuff gets basically thrown overboard or invalidated by Rebellion, but that's basically expected with a sequel to a work that's already concluded and didn't expect to get a sequel in the first place. Also why I can see why people would hate the movie when basically it's mission statement is to turn everything upside down. I mean it's a great way of making sure things stay fresh instead of just rehashing poo poo and ending up boring, but it's also why I kinda view pre and post movie PMMM as pretty different things.
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Jan 13, 2016 22:00
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By 'thread', are we talking about the spool? 'Cause from the Clara's playing we can tell that it's not a "red string of fate," but is supposed to reference the string in Freud's "Fort! Da!" game. The spool appears twice before the scene LJ screencapped. Both of these times, we see the Clara with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ae3O8qvNEcM The Clara are paying lip service to an old Freudian idea that, to summarize, was his observation of something his grandson did while his mother was away. The tyke made a game of making things disappear and then pulling them back into sight, like a one-person game of peekaboo. Freud's idea was that the game gave his grandson a sense of control over a situation (his parents' disappearance) that was in reality beyond his grasp. The pink spool is supposed to represent Homura's iconic struggle throughout the series—how she's been constantly reunited with Madoka, only to lose her in recursion. When she becomes a witch with the intention of separating herself from Madoka, the Clara kick the spool away, proclaiming, "Fort! (Gone!)" The Clara represent that Freudian child, as they brought Madoka and the others into the world, (Da!) and intend to push them away by plunging their master into despair and enacting her funeral within the dream world. (Fort!) That's why when Homura takes a new form, the spool becomes the basis of her soul orb—it represents Homura's agency in her own pain and suffering. Well, so I think. That the thread and the Clara's singing are referencing Freud is certain, but how to interpret it is just my deduction, and I'd love to bounce off of someone who looks at it differently.
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Jan 13, 2016 22:01
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a cartoon duck posted:Of course that kinda outlook is basically soul-crushing, especially when you're a grieving teenager, so when Homura inevitably reads a kind of make-or-break moment she remembers that Madoka was actually a cool and good person who wouldn't want her friend to be bitter, lonely and dead. So when she finally learns to deal with her grief and move on it changes her world view so much it might as well be world-changing. Life's still a bit poo poo, people still die and life still throws monsters at you, but after moving past her cynical world view she can reconcile with her other friends and tackle that poo poo together with them. Plus after she's not absorbed in her own grief anymore she finally sees that just because people aren't talking about their dead sister and daughter anymore doesn't mean they forgot about her and they all dealt with that loss just like she did. I think this is a really cool and interesting take on the series. I'm definitely with you on how Homura begins as an awkward turbonerd who is progressively alienated from her surroundings by the all-consuming nature of her obsession with Madoka. But ultimately I don't agree with this last bit, since I don't think Homura ever really has this kind of realisation before the audience's eyes. Her only attempt at cooperation with a non-Madoka person outside episode 10 occurs during her tentative alliance with Kyouko, and those two do have a sort of understanding, but it all ultimately falls apart because Homura misjudges Kyouko's attachment to Sayaka. Up until the eleventh hour (episode 11, natch) Homura is still fighting alone in the ostensible belief that she didn't ever need Kyouko's help to begin with. And granted, you're looking at all of this as a metaphor, but ultimately everything in the final episode revolves around the continued primacy of Homura's feelings for Madoka. To take Homura's scenes after Madoka's ascension/'death' blow by blow: Homura is fighting alongside Kyouko and Mami in the new world but she stands aside with tear-filled eyes while Kyouko erupts in frustration at Sayaka's death, stares at the crimson ribbons, and calls for Madoka. Mami and Kyouko react in utter confusion since that name means nothing to them. Homura is still distanced from the others by her memories of Madoka. Next we see her interact with Madoka's family and for the first time she shows an acceptance of her loss, but this whole conversation still revolves around Madoka. It's interesting to see Junko talk about 'Madoka' as an imaginary friend for Tatsuya and Homura immediately says she also knows Tatsuya's 'Madoka'. In a way Madoka has also been an imaginary friend to Homura throughout the series- a comforting, perfect ideal that provides an alternative to her messy interactions with the rest of the cast and even the 'real Madoka' who no longer understands her. That support is something she's never quite let go of until now- but the fact she feels able to offer Junko Madoka's ribbon has to mean something. In the next scene, she is talking to to Kyubey about (guess what) Madoka. Homura is sitting with Kyubey alone far above the city, visually distant from the bright lights beneath. Ultimately she states that evil still exists in the world and descends to continue her endless battle. She reaffirms her resolve because 'this world is a place she tried to protect' and swears to remember this fact. As she rises to fight the demons, her bow along with the ribbon visually tie her to Madoka as a magical girl. Homura fights to remember Madoka, and in doing so is attempting to become Madoka, someone who defends the world because it's the right thing to do. Though this is difference from her old self, who for the most part was entirely focused on fighting to protect Madoka, the primacy of her first friend to her motivations hasn't changed at all. But the most damning evidence of Homura's continued obsession is the desert scene after the credits.  Despite these words, Homura is physically alone, dwarfed by the vast expanse of the desert and sky around her. She walks forwards to confront a horde of enemies with a grim expression on her face until she hears Madoka's voice and her expression shifts into a slight smile. If Homura has achieved a more balanced emotional life after Madoka dies/becomes God, it's certainly left to the imagination. Even if she has arguably accepted her friend's death, for the most part she ends the series as she began it, with Madoka as her lodestar. Speaking as a Homura fan, this is probably why I always found a certain dissonance in the ending of the series even prior to Rebellion. Taking the series literally, of course, her wish remains unfulfilled as Madoka has chosen a different path and left Homura alone. But even if I accept the grieving metaphor, there's scant evidence that Homura has achieved deeper, more fulfilling relationships with others in the 'new world' she finds herself in. She remains splendidly isolated from the world as a result of her abiding and all-consuming memories of her friend, and the happy ending many predicted for her prior to Rebellion was a reunion with her beloved Madoka in 'heaven'. Indeed, this was very nearly the actual ending of the movie until the decision was made to find another twist to the story and explore the notion of Madoka and Homura as enemies. As it stands, Rebellion sees her act out the full depths of her obsession as she chases her ideal of a happy ending- ostensibly for Madoka's sake but largely for her own sake. I can only hope that in the upcoming project the rest of the cast can finally confront her and let her realise possibilities for interpersonal relationships outside her obsessive love for Madoka and the pat, seductive notion of a reunion beyond the physical world. Lestaki fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jan 14, 2016 |
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Jan 14, 2016 02:40
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a cartoon duck posted:words
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Jan 14, 2016 02:47
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So it's Thursday night, and you know what that means: it's movie 2 talk time! Yayyy!! In this chat srice and I play it pretty safe I think, and then other times we get crazy out of control with our opinions. We chat about character arcs, the direction, put on our editing hats, and even think about what we'd recommend to an anime newbie that got started with Madokes. Speaking personally I didn't have as much to say about Homura as I thought I would, considering all the words she alone has generated in this thread, but maybe that will still change...maybe I can still get brain aids in: Rebellion, the sequel! But for now, the finale to the pretty good series. Mine bolded, Srice's italicized.  Right off the bat, I was pretty wrong about Sayaka managing to be saved from her Witchy fate. A lot of things are dropped on the viewer at once from the very beginning, including the reveal of Kyubey's ultimate plan: harnessing the power of pubescent girl's emotions to roll back the natural entropy and inevitable heat death of the universe. I'm going to pull a semi fast one here and say right out the gate that it's ridiculous, I'm pretty sure you think it's ridiculous, so let's look at it from a different angle: thematically, how, if at all, do you think it could fit in? Even before the idea of entropy is introduced, ruthless utilitarianism vs self interest is a clear theme of the series, and while sacrifice for the greater good fits in there, as a piece of the work it's rather inelegant I think, and barely referenced again despite being the sole antagonizing factor of the universe. What do you think? Is there any thematic angle you can think of that makes it stick out like a sore thumb any less? I'm having a hard time thinking of a thematic reason for it as well. The best I got is that it's meant to be compared side by side to the ultimate fate of all magical girls but even then it's rather inelegant. I can think about the reasonings but any possible reason I come up with is far from being the perfect fit thematically. My guess is that it's part of a large trend I've noticed with a lot of fantasy: Coming up with scientific, logical reasons for magic. And that definitely plays a part in how the series is resolved. Yeah it's a tough one. Sometimes, rarely, a show will throw you something that's so out of left field that it doesn't seem to belong at all. But then, upon reflection, it actually turns out to fit in perfectly. Hard to say that here. I guess the best I can do is muse that it's an interesting answer to the question why it's always gotta be magical *girls*, going a little bit deeper than their pure maiden hearts. Going about a centimeter deeper: to construct a universe saving reason. Ah well, I'm sure it's been brought up countless times and someone will be all too happy to throw a theory in our direction. What follows is a surprisingly swift exit for Kyoko as she doubles back on her self interested selfishness in order to attempt to save Sayaka, a path she seemingly started down after realizing she was a 'zombie' too, and her friendship with Sayaka of course. Who knew that that little fact would spark the end of everything. But we're not given much time to dwell on it at all; in fact the series appears to be in a down right rush to the finish line now. They fail to save Sayaka, Kyoko dies, people are sad, we're given another lesson on entropy. That's about when the flashbacks start, yea? Am I forgetting anything important? Yeah that's pretty much how it goes down. As a movie it makes for weird pacing as we get that entropy lesson shortly after retreating from the source of the first movie's cliffhanger. If it were up to me I would put the Homura flashbacks at the very beginning of the film, and after they end we'd be back to where that first movie ended. And while we're getting into the flashbacks I gotta say that they're by far my favorite part of the second film. Good editing and a need to condense everything really add up to an enjoyable experience as we only get the most important, defining story beats of all of the time loops Homura has been through. All fastforwarding to end in the exact same result. In just a short amount of time they really sell us on how she changed from a meek schoolgirl who started in the same position as Madoka to what she is in the present timeline.  I was thinking about it, and I agree with that rearrangement completely. Just cold open the film into the flashbacks. If I can put on my lovely director hat for a second, I'd put slightly more emphasis on Sayaka's fate, and throw in a tiny glimmer of hope for the prime timeline, so that when we get back there, it's even more crushing to end up in the same place yet again. And hell, agreed on the flashbacks as well. In addition to what you said about the pacing, it's also the last time in the movie I remember the choreography really being something to behold. Seeing Homura gain, exercise, and develop her powers is a realm visual treat, executed with imagination and flair.  As it stands, the pacing felt pretty odd as we go from flashbacks directly into the final confrontation with Walpurgisnacht, without even a moment to breathe and contemplate the sheer amount of *dread* Homura must be feeling at the moment, along with Madoka. It moved so fast that I actually didn't realize at first that I was back in the prime timeline, I assumed I was still in the flashback zone when Madoka started having that final talk with her mother. I'm eager to get to that part and talk about Walpurgisnacht in general, but there's so much going on that it's hard to find a way into it! I guess I'm disappointed in general that they didn't spend a little bit more time fleshing that entity out. I don't need a whole life story or anything, but for such a world shattering entity it feels like most of its dirty deeds happened off screen, which is a missed opportunity. I think the idea of a set apocalypse resonates with people, it's why majora's mask is so well remembered, or even Nyx from Persona 3. The idea that you can see your impending doom staring you in the face while you're at present powerless to stop it, that what's coming is a force of nature, unreasonable, unknowable. That's what's truly frightening about those things. By focusing on their relationship to the near exclusion of the antagonist, it really took the wind out of the climax's sails.  Despite talking about it in a fair number of scenes, Walpurgisnacht really doesn't leave a huge impact on me either. I think what really weakens it for me is the timeline where Madoka became so powerful that she destroyed it in a single attack, but will become a Witch so powerful that the entire planet will be destroyed. It immediately brings to mind what happened to Sayaka, but on a much grander scale. I'm not sure how much of it is intentional but the idea that all of the time loop tomfoolery means that Madoka would have immense power that inevitably goes out of control (Until she finds the perfect wish that would counteract it of course) is much more dreadful to me than Walpurgisnacht ever managed to be. Another thing I think that hurts Walpurgisnacht's impact is how it doesn't feel terribly different from other Witches. There's a good Stephen King quote about how not seeing the monster is scarier and that definitely applies here. You never get a good look at it in the flashbacks, you just know what whatever it is was able to wreck everyone Given all of the time loop shenanigans, I wonder if there wasn't something going on with Walpurgisnacht becoming more powerful in order to force Madoka to transform. It's never outright stated, but I think it's clear that final timeline Homura probably should have been able to destroy the first timeline's version. But Madoka is apparently fated to be a magical girl, and nothing Homura does can change that. It's the one immutable fact of *that* universe, now matter how many times she rewinds it. And while I agree with you that Madoka witch is a dreadful concept, I found that the movie didn't really sell me on it. After all, we were given a first hand look at Sayaka's transformation into a witch; despair, resentment, hatred. We're led to believe that magical girls will either die in battle, or eventually fall to despair and transform into witches. There's no winning, either way. It's implied with that framework that the work is so horribly soul crushing that you *will* inevitably fall into despair. That's unsettling to me. Here we're simply told that Madoka destroying her greatest enemy means she's going to be a witch because...??? Did I miss something, or is that basically it?  It's a scene that seems to be open to interpretation since nothing is outright said. Since the transformation to a Witch happened so suddenly my best guess is that in destroying Walpurgisnacht Madoka used so much power that it took everything out of her Soul Gem. But that's just a guess. And of course for the sake of this discussion it's best to disregard any side materials that might explain it; if it's not in the series, then it doesn't matter I don't have much else to add to this part of the story but I do want to comment that the time loop = power aspect reminds me of the original Final Fantasy, in which the final villain is able to obtain great power fueled by an endless time loop. Then one more quick bit in this terrestrial sphere before we take to the stars; it seems a little out of character for Kyubey to be so pleased with the impending destruction of the earth. For someone that always prided himself on playing fair and claiming to treat humanity with respect, him essentially saying lol peace at the end there didn't sit right with me, either thematically or for his character. The former just because the story is more interesting to me if kyubey really does have, in his own messed up way, a desire to shelter humanity, and the latter for the reasons already listed above. What were your final thoughts on the creepy furry bugger? In one of the timelines Madoka was so powerful that he said that she provided "enough" energy. Perhaps that's what he was angling for this entire time. I guess we just have to take his word that it was enough energy to last forever. It's really weird but he's also a character that doesn't lie. As for how I feel about him overall, I like him more in the first film when he plays a more active role, tempting everyone with the promise of wishes. In the second he sticks to his rules but that makes him less compelling. For a good chunk of the second film he is more or less an observer and an exposition device.  Then I guess that leaves us with Madoka's final sacrifice, a concept that I actually did enjoy quite a bit, despite my grousing on the way to it. Especially as it was visually executed, extra dimensionally. She just keeps shooting the problem. And when that leads to another problem, she just destroys *that* problem. It's turtles all the way down until, like Kyubey says, she essentially destroys the rules of the universe. She got ALL the turtles. All of them. We finally find out the answer to the question of whether or not it's possible to change an immutable axiom, whether you can create some good in the universe, without inviting commensurate evil. The answer is: kind of. Magical girls seem to still exist, and they keep doing their job. They just don't turn into witches any more. We're left focusing on Homura, a real deuteragonist if I ever saw one. After all of her sacrifices, she's finally able to set down the burden of saving the world that Madoka unwittingly put on her shoulders. She seems to be coping okay, and I can easily buy her progression from shy and isolated, to dependent, to independent. I know that's supposedly going to get torn to poo poo in Rebellion, but for the moment she's in a good place. Better place, at least.  It feels like a typical, but well executed denouement, my only real nagging question is, when Madoka leaves to say she has to go to the others, she meets with Sayaka and they have a chance to make up and send her on her way. We then cut to the new timeline where she is immediately gone because..I have no freaking idea. Before we get into that of course, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the final bit and epilogue. Anything really stand out to you that I missed?  While I do feel that the epilogue drags its feet a bit much, it's a solid end to the series. Regarding Sayaka, since you mentioned it to me earlier I paid close attention and it's very awkwardly edited, I wouldn't have known either if I wasn't specifically looking out for it. After ghost Sayaka watches that performance Mami states that Sayaka used up all of her power to deliver an attack, and Kyoko says that Sayaka died for a boy she liked. I guess we can piece it together as Sayaka burning herself out to save him offscreen? The series manages to stick to its landing after a bit of a bumpy ride, and with its ending I have no complaints that weren't already factors I mentioned during our discussion of the first film. Specifically that its visual storytelling far outweighed the more dialogue-driven aspects. I suppose there's no rule that says you have to bring every character back in the new timeline, it just struck me as a very odd choice to have the first thing that happens in the brighter future be a main character death, immediately after talking to her spirit and seemingly resolving issues she had in the original timeline. Just sorta a bewildering choice I guess. Do you think they are still 'zombies' at the end as well? I guess they would be, considering that Madoka didn't mention anything about it in her wish.  On the whole I guess I'd say I much more enjoyed the first movie, when things weren't quite so grounded with exposition. It's not that I disliked the second movie, rather I'm disappointed in the way you feel when a work is fine, but you feel in your heart that it could have been so much better. As it stands the work as a whole is pretty tight, extremely well directed, with good character arcs from beginning to end. I honestly thought I'd have a bit more to talk about here with regard to the show's philosophy but it's all pretty regular to me! Maybe by Rebellion I'll be inspired to type up all the thematic and philosophical paragraphs others manage, but for the moment I can really only appreciate the work as a very well made piece of entertainment. Or to put it another way, it didn't ever grab that part of my brain's imagination. Perhaps it's the rare series that I would have advocated *more* episodes for. Maybe just one or two. Any final thoughts from you?!  Since you brought up the exposition I think I'll just straight up say it: I think if the series had a weaker director it wouldn't be worthwhile. Urobuchi loves to over explain things and while the movies parsed that down a bit in the first film it really bleeds through in the second. We both know that Simbo is fantastic at making talky scenes visually interesting and it really shows in the -monogatari series. Meanwhile, I've hated all other anime I've checked out that had been written by Urobuchi. Dull direction and talking heads is a poor mix and stuff like Fate/Zero is incredibly egregious about it; its first episode is the worst offender I've ever seen in anime in that regard. Meanwhile Simbo is still pumping out more and more -monogatari and it's still quite good.  And what I'm getting at is basically, Madoka has become quite popular to the point that for some people it might be an entry level anime, or at the very least mid level. And to that end what do you think you would tell someone who saw Madoka, loved it, and wants more like it? Personally I would be a little hesitant in recommending -monogatari to someone new to anime. Hell, a bunch of Simbo's other works are a bit hard to get into if you're not already big into anime. After thinking about it for a little bit I decided that the best answer is Masaaki Yuasa's works. Beginning with Tatami Galaxy and if that winds up being their poo poo then they can check out the rest of his stuff. And if they really want something with a magical girl element, it's a genre I don't know a whole lot about but I definitely wouldn't hesitate in suggesting Utena as it has plenty of visual tricks of its own, though of a different sort.  That's definitely a tough evaluation for me to make, as generally agnostic as I am about most notable creative types in the industry, outside of the huge names like you just mentioned. And while Urobochi is definitely a name I've seen come up a lot, I've never felt compelled to check out his works for most of the reasons you listed. I watched a few episodes of the first Fate series when it came out and was ruefully bored by it, and by the time he had his hand on the wheel for Zero nothing I heard made me change my mind. I didn't even realize Aldnoah Zero was made by him when I started watching it, and I still dropped it halfway for much the same reasons you’ve elucidated. As for the second part of your question, I've haven't really given much thought to what I'd recommend an anime scrub in quite some time. While you know how much I love and adore Tatami Galaxy, as do all good people, I'm not sure it's the first thing I'd reach for if someone was coming off the heels of Madoka. As you say, probably not the Monogatari series either. I'm bad at pulling things out of thin air but I'd probably stick to things that were slightly heady but kept madoka's super brisk pacing. Something along the lines of Jigen's Gravestone, Gatchaman Crowds, Baccano, and the like. The only reason I don't immediately reach for Tatami is simply because of its episodic nature and the fact that it gets better the longer you watch it, culminating in a truly more than the sum of its parts ending, something not all neophytes necessarily have the patience or even good faith to pursue. And I guess that does it for me! It's been another good chat session, and we still have Rebellion to dig into, which will be new for both of us. I’d like to say I'm grateful for people still pushing Madoka to this day, even with its noted reputation, because it eventually got me to watch it and I'm happy I did! I'll leave it to you, Srice, to get the last word in.  Gatchaman Crowds is an incredibly good example and now I'm jealous I didn't think of it earlier! It fits quite well, perhaps even the best fit of all. As for Tatami Galaxy while I think Madoka fans would enjoy the time loop aspect, you are right that it can take time to truly appreciate it. A podcast I listen to once covered the show and one point made during it was that you really need some patience and more importantly, full undistracted attention to the entire show. Something that can be a tough sell these days. Since I am up later than usual I'll just end this conversation by saying: I think the movies did a good job overall since I'm feeling more positive about the series than when I initially saw the tv version. I'm looking forward to checking out Rebellion for the first time if only to see how Simbo can run things on a movie budget. Kizumonogatari is looming so if nothing else it will be like getting a sneak peek at how wild he'll get with all that freedom.  Looking forward to seeing what the response to this will be like in the morning but for now, sleep awaits. Thanks for reading, all who do, and please feel free to call me a dummy and point out any of the stuff i missed that led to my questions!!
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Jan 15, 2016 05:11
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