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China's government is bad but going to war against it would be a thousand times worse
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Jan 21, 2016 04:36
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SedanChair posted:China's government is bad but going to war against it would be a thousand times worse Yeah, EasternBronze might actually have to earn the veteran cred he acts like he already has.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:37
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SedanChair posted:China's government is bad but going to war against it would be a thousand times worse Good thing noone here has said war is a thing we should be working for. All I know is most Pacific nations seem to feel that without America's presence a war is more likely. Its really great we have so many experts who have lived in this area and understand the language to talk about the relative merits of their respective societies. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:42 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 04:37
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SedanChair posted:China's government is bad but going to war against it would be a thousand times worse Agreed. I guess the US has no choice but to keep its bases to defuse any future conflicts 
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Jan 21, 2016 04:41
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EasternBronze posted:Good thing noone here has said war is a thing we should be working for. However, it is a thing that the communists are working towards with their whole "islandhopping with chinese characteristics" scheme.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:42
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Fojar38 posted:
  Because the United States is a bit better at concealing it I'm afraid I don't have any gifs or pictures of "extraordinary rendition" where US citizens and others are flown to other countries to be tortured. Not quite as flashy I know. 
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Jan 21, 2016 04:43
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LorrdErnie posted:
You're right, these are problems we need to fix. Thankfully in America you are allowed to post these and talk about them and vote for people that share your views about this and even talk about how angry you are with the government that are violating ideals you hold to be important (ideas developed by Western societies btw). Hell you could even sue the government and the judge might actually be independent, a concept which China also, shockingly, is totally against. Are you starting to see my point here? If you were in China you could be arrested for even talking about this or being a member of a forum like this. That is not a society you want to have more influence in the world. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 04:45
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Bro Dad posted:Agreed. I guess the US has no choice but to keep its bases to defuse any future conflicts Or we could just pack up and leave, and see how well the SDF + a bunch of right-wing politicians with bullhorns manage to defend their own country.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:48
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SedanChair posted:Or we could just pack up and leave, and see how well the SDF + a bunch of right-wing politicians with bullhorns manage to defend their own country. Don't worry, I have on good authority that Japan has alot of pre-teen magical girls who can assist the JDF. EasternBronze fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 04:50
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LorrdErnie posted:
Haha yeah remember when the US government abducted people off the street for giving tv interviews about how they oppose government policy
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Jan 21, 2016 04:55
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EasternBronze posted:You're right, these are problems we need to fix. Thankfully in America you are allowed to post these and talk about them and vote for people that share your views about this and even talk about how angry you are with the government that are violating ideals you hold to be important (ideas developed by Western societies btw). Hell you could even sue the government and the judge might actually be independent, a concept which China also, shockingly, is totally against. Another option would be electing a chief executive who promises to close down foreign military bases that clearly violate human rights! Still, being able to talk about the horrific government practices we have no hope of changing (other than the ones that are classified of course) is an actual point in favor of the US I'll give you that! Since the US prides itself on human rights unlike China I'm glad we can at least manage that! Also you couldn't sue, you lack standing.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:56
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Noam Chomsky just disappeared one day and hasn't been heard from since right
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Jan 21, 2016 04:56
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quote:Another option would be electing a chief executive who promises to close down foreign military bases that clearly violate human rights! They did, and Obama still wants to close Guantanamo, but unlike in China, the power of the executive is checked in the USA
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Jan 21, 2016 04:57
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Fojar38 posted:Haha yeah remember when the US government abducted people off the street for giving tv interviews about how they oppose government policy The US traditionally hasn't given reasons when they've abducted people off the street. 
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Jan 21, 2016 04:58
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Fojar38 posted:China unilaterally established an ADIZ over Japanese airspace in the East China Sea and has repeatedly said that it would use force against Japan to "defend" them. Consider this: What if, instead of re-militarizing Japan, which is what is happening and what the US currently supports, the Japanese Prime Minister went to China and made a sincere apology to the Chinese people for what happened during World War 2, admitted that the Rape of Nanking and every other war crime perpetrated by the Japanese absolutely happened, promised that these events would not be erased from Japanese textbooks or from world heritage discussions at the UN, and promised to accept (this is key) full legal responsibility and pay formal reparations to the victims of Japanese war crimes. Then following that, the US and other Asian region countries agreed to admit China into ASEAN and other regional organizations, and agreed to deepen trade relations with China. Chinese products would flow into Asian markets (more so and more freely than they do now). Chinese factories and businesses would exist in Japan in a way they currently don't exist now. The way I see it, this would have a number of effects:
If that sounds good to you, understand that was essentially what the Democratic Party of Japan proposed when they were elected in 2009. It failed because it was opposed by both the US State Department and Japan's war-crime-denying right-wing. It was, in a sense, 2 against 1. However, it's not too late for the US to change its mind on this, and there seems to be a minority voice within the US government that supports exactly the plan that I've explained here. Given all of this, doesn't it make more sense to turn ourselves away from militarily "containing" China, and turn towards beating down the neo-reactionary forces in Japan's government that are preventing a mending of relations? quote:Nope. One is a liberal democracy and the other is an autocracy. That alone makes a world of difference. Red and Black fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 04:58
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Fojar38 posted:Noam Chomsky just disappeared one day and hasn't been heard from since right He was actually just driving drunk from a foreign country to visit a bunch of whores in another city.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:58
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LorrdErnie posted:The US traditionally hasn't given reasons when they've abducted people off the street. They haven't given you reasons. Congress has been briefed on these situations. Congress is the will of the people in America, ergo the people have been brief'd.
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Jan 21, 2016 04:59
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Who has standing to sue in the courts is a complex issue but as a matter of principle you are not forbidden from entering the legal system. Some of the Guantanamo inmates have sued and been heard by the courts, that alone shows you the massive gulf between autocracy and democratic systems. I should also point out that Guantanamo is so shocking because its such a deviation from the norm. How about China? Are you going to read about any of this in the newspaper there?
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Jan 21, 2016 05:00
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Chomskyan posted:Consider this: What if, instead of re-militarizing Japan, which is what is happening and what the US currently supports, the Japanese Prime Minister went to China and made a sincere apology to the Chinese people for what happened during World War 2, admitted that the Rape of Nanking and every other war crime perpetrated by the Japanese absolutely happened, promised that these events would not be erased from Japanese textbooks or from world heritage discussions at the UN, and promised to accept (this is key) full legal responsibility and pay formal reparations to the victims of Japanese war crimes. Like I don't know if you get this, but geopolitics isn't like dealing with normal people. You cannot base a national defense strategy on "we're really sorry guys", nor will simply accepting responsibility for past crimes reduce China's expansionist desires - China's leaders are assholes, just like leaders all over the world, they're in it for themselves. The 5-minute-hate on Japan serves to distract them from domestic problems, and it helps them in their desires to steal natural resources & territory from their neighbors. Every government thoughout history does this to varying degrees, some less than others. The ones that tend to do it less to be democratic, the ones that tend to do it more tend to be authoritarian. And guess what, China is authoritarian. Look at China's own territorial water claims in the South China Sea and try and explain how they're acting with respect and fairness towards their neighbors. Go on, give it a shot. The only thing that'll check them is military force, so either the US does that, or the US leaves and Japan massively increases their own land & naval military capability. If the US is going to play in the area, it's going to need bases. If you're against Japan militarizing, you should be in support of those bases. rudatron fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 05:09
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Anti-Japanese sentiment and general xenophobia are massive parts of China's internal propaganda program (If the number of Chinese textbooks I've gotten to read are any indication) and its an extremely useful tool for moving attention away from domestic issues. Why should we assume the Chinese government is a good faith actor or even that people in China will buy into it? Wars aren't a playground fight and I don't see how anybody who has even a cursory knowledge of Chinese foreign and domestic policy would think that Japan just handing China a bunch of freebies would than radically change their goals. Why give up such a valuable propaganda campaign if they don't need to? In Chinese history textbooks, America is literally referred to as 背后黑手，the black hand manipulating the affairs of the world. This isn't a joke thats a direct quote.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:15
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quote:Consider this: What if, instead of re-militarizing Japan, which is what is happening and what the US currently supports, the Japanese Prime Minister went to China and made a sincere apology to the Chinese people for what happened during World War 2, admitted that the Rape of Nanking and every other war crime perpetrated by the Japanese absolutely happened, promised that these events would not be erased from Japanese textbooks or from world heritage discussions at the UN, and promised to accept (this is key) full legal responsibility and pay formal reparations to the victims of Japanese war crimes. Then following that, the US and other Asian region countries agreed to admit China into ASEAN and other regional organizations, and agreed to deepen trade relations with China. Chinese products would flow into Asian markets (more so and more freely than they do now). Chinese factories and businesses would exist in Japan in a way they currently don't exist now. The way I see it, this would have a number of effects: A) Almost everything you posted here is already the case. There have been tons of official war apology statements from the Japanese over the past half century and yet for some reason the Chinese always seem to find one more grievance they can use as a cudgel to stoke domestic nationalism. Furthermore, the Chinese and Japanese economies are already ridiculously closely intertwined, with lots of Japanese money flowing into China and lots of Chinese products flowing into Japan. This has done little to ease tensions. B) Why precisely should Chinese belligerence be rewarded with admission into exclusive trade blocs and more open access to the Japanese economy? Giving another country economic perks/preference in exchange for not being militarily attacked is called "tribute" and it's absurd to suggest that Japan and ASEAN effectively become Chinese vassals under the threat of bloodshed if they don't. That you think that the Japanese sometimes pussyfooting around when it comes to confronting its history is justification for the Chinese to threaten physical invasion is nothing short of astonishing. C) Lol if you think the US is containing China. If China was being contained everyone on the planet would loving know it. quote:Why does that matter if the crimes are the same? If your mother was shot by a soldier, would it really make a difference to you whether that soldier was from a liberal democracy or communist-style oligarchic state? If anything, the liberal democracy should be criticized more, because liberal democracies ought to be held to a higher standard, right? I agree, they should be held to a higher standard, which is why things like torture in Guantanamo was so loving abhorrant. It's the behavior one would expect from China or Russia, not the USA. The chief difference is that you're not only allowed to talk about it in the USA but the USA has also owned up to it. The US government has literally said "We tortured people, and it was wrong and hosed up to do that."
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Jan 21, 2016 05:15
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Chomskyan posted:Consider this: What if, instead of re-militarizing Japan, which is what is happening and what the US currently supports, the Japanese Prime Minister went to China and made a sincere apology to the Chinese people for what happened during World War 2, admitted that the Rape of Nanking and every other war crime perpetrated by the Japanese absolutely happened, promised that these events would not be erased from Japanese textbooks or from world heritage discussions at the UN, and promised to accept (this is key) full legal responsibility and pay formal reparations to the victims of Japanese war crimes. Then following that, the US and other Asian region countries agreed to admit China into ASEAN and other regional organizations, and agreed to deepen trade relations with China. Chinese products would flow into Asian markets (more so and more freely than they do now). Chinese factories and businesses would exist in Japan in a way they currently don't exist now. The way I see it, this would have a number of effects:
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Jan 21, 2016 05:18
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There's a real irony in demanding Japan change its textbooks to conform to China's wishes. I've perused both and the Japanese ones are hardly perfect but compared to the Chinese ones they are far more even-handed and way less polemical. In fact, from an outside observer's perspective they are actually absurd.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:19
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Japan does go over Imperial Japan and WW2 and the Rape of Nanking in their textbooks, albeit again they don't devote as much time to it as they should, especially considering its importance in understanding modern Asia. The Chinese literally throw things like the Great Famine and Cultural Revolution in the memory hole.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:21
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Also the idea that a more tightly integrated Asian economies will reduce conflict ignores that there's still a power imbalance - trade may flow both ways, but the countries that trade with China will need that trade with China more than China needs them. It's the same reason US embargos in the Latin American area are actually pretty effective. This is also pertinent because you, I suspect Chomskyan, would probably gladly reel off a million reasons why the US is practicing Economic Imperialism or whatever - yet you're blind and in fact arguing for giving China the exact same abilities on the grounds that it's a good thing. Turns out you are an imperialist apologist, who knew?
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Jan 21, 2016 05:23
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SedanChair posted:Or we could just pack up and leave, and see how well the SDF + a bunch of right-wing politicians with bullhorns manage to defend their own country. Japan is a US ally and a liberal democracy whereas People's Republic of China is a jingoistic fascist dictatorship, so no. Chomskyan posted:First of all, thank you for posting something substantive and contributing to the thread. Secondly, what you've linked to indicates to me that China and Japan have very bad relations. I don't believe it means that China would go to war with Japan. Violating air space and claimed waters are things that countries do to each other all the time without it coming to war. Except that the PRC claims the Senkakus and routinely threatens military action over them and had literal anti-japanese race riots across the country during the last flare up of tensions. Adding in the fact that the CCP's official newspaper has calls for Okinawa's annexation your whole post seems like a bunch of pie-in-the-sky bullshit. An example of (according to you) rational CCP foreign policy: 
Bro Dad fucked around with this message at 05:25 on Jan 21, 2016 |
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Jan 21, 2016 05:23
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I was living in Guangdong during the big anti-Japanese riots you mentioned and it was really incredible, people smashing up Japanese cars, 7-11's, ramen shops you name it. I think its literally the only time I've seen people expressing themselves freely without fear of repression China has trumpeted their claims to the 9 dash line to high-heaven, its in all their latest textbooks, on official maps and logos and unfortunately a good number of people over there really earnestly believe it. They aren't going to throw that away just because Abe dumps a pile of Yen on their lap and does some ritual bowing.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:25
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rudatron posted:Ah ha ha ha ha, holy poo poo you're naive. However, because Hatoyama was no longer prime minister his apology wasn't taken seriously in Japan. But there's still hope that a left wing government could take power in Japan and these kinds of policies could be revived. Recently there have been some massive left wing protests across the country (I live here and have personally seen some), and there is an upper house election this year. The problem is that even if a left-wing or center-left party enters power, they won't be able to welcome China into the fold without US support. And right now, the US has chosen to support their opposition. quote:Look at China's own territorial water claims in the South China Sea and try and explain how they're acting with respect and fairness towards their neighbors. Go on, give it a shot.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:26
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Chomskyan posted:Do you believe the US and it's war-crime denialist buddies in the Japanese government are acting with respect and fairness towards the Okinawans? Yes.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:28
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It says right in the article that Hatoyama was the third Prime Minister to visit Nanjing to apologize. How many more do they need?
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Jan 21, 2016 05:29
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EasternBronze posted:It says right in the article that Hatoyama was the third Prime Minister to visit Nanjing to apologize. How many more do they need? It must to be a left-wing president, otherwise it doesn't count. Chomskyan has decided.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:31
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i don't believ nanking happend because i cant see soldirs raping ppl especially japanse soldies
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Jan 21, 2016 05:34
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EasternBronze posted:In Chinese history textbooks, America is literally referred to as 背后黑手，the black hand manipulating the affairs of the world. This isn't a joke thats a direct quote. I don't think they meant it to sound racist.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:36
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EasternBronze posted:Anti-Japanese sentiment and general xenophobia are massive parts of China's internal propaganda program (If the number of Chinese textbooks I've gotten to read are any indication) and its an extremely useful tool for moving attention away from domestic issues. Why should we assume the Chinese government is a good faith actor or even that people in China will buy into it? Wars aren't a playground fight and I don't see how anybody who has even a cursory knowledge of Chinese foreign and domestic policy would think that Japan just handing China a bunch of freebies would than radically change their goals. Why give up such a valuable propaganda campaign if they don't need to? a fair estimation of obama's geopolitical influence
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Jan 21, 2016 05:38
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SedanChair posted:I don't think they meant it to sound racist. This is not a racial term (I am well aware a white hand could still be African!), its just absurdly polemical and this kind of language has no place in a history textbook. My point is that the education system's goal is to inject as much xenophobia as possible into the discourse. The race thing, well they don't need any encouragement on that front.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:42
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EasternBronze posted:This is not a racial term (I am well aware a white hand could still be African!), its just absurdly polemical and this kind of language has no place in a history textbook. i think the truth is in the middle
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Jan 21, 2016 05:51
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EasternBronze posted:This is not a racial term (I am well aware a white hand could still be African!), its just absurdly polemical and this kind of language has no place in a history textbook. It's kind of refreshing actually. I mean it lacks the comprehensive nature of a 1950s American textbook, but there's probably some poetic element that's lost in translation.
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Jan 21, 2016 05:59
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What if, instead of sincerely apologizing to China for the Chinese Rape of Nanjing, what if --- now hear me out --- we bombed the poo poo outta China's nine-dotted line from our bases on Okinawa?
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Jan 21, 2016 06:31
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I had no idea that yet another airstrip on Okinawa was the lynch-pin holding back the red tide of Chinese totalitarianism, and that putting it on another island in the East China Sea or Sea of Japan would bring it all tumbling down.
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Jan 21, 2016 06:49
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Chomskyan posted:Actually everything I said might have been history. It still might become history. Hatoyama actually did end up going to China to apologize for Japan's crimes. The Chinese were extremely receptive and it even became national news (further indicating state support, since the news is basically entirely controlled by the state in China). Your theory of how the Chinese government might react is not borne out by the facts. Then, once you've thought that through, take the time to think why Japan might still want to put the bases somewhere, and Okinawa is probably the best place for them to be, regardless of how Okinawans may feel about it. In much the same way as a town being flooded by a hydroelectric dam means the town gets moved, in spite of how the people in the town might feel.
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Jan 21, 2016 06:55
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