|
CSM posted:Belgian politics often times seem more dysfunctional than they actually are. It's nothing compared to the US, which functions a lot more like a failed state with politicians barely able to actually govern. Lmao it clearly is working out great
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
CSM posted:Well for starters, 50 - 100 days formation periods aren't really that exceptional, and the way Belgium is organized it isn't all that consequential either. Everything is still functional, there are just no controversial political decisions (at the federal level) that get pushed through. 139, 197 & 541 are all significantly above 100 days? So what you're saying is these formation periods are exceptionally long? Cool, we agree then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:05
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Attacks in India have almost all been done by Pakistani nationals. And Bangladesh hasn't had anything like this. Bangladesh has had like dozens of journalists stabbed to death by Muslim extremists for blasphemy in the last few years?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:09
|
|
|
Gyre posted:Are you just dense? It's been shown time and again that isolating and oppressing people is a recipe for violence and extremism. Yeah, just look at all those terror attacks by isolated and oppressed Hindus and Christians in Saudi Arabia.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:09
|
|
|
Celexi posted:Lmao it clearly is working out great The USA has a bazillion more resources than the Belgian security services and the Boston bombings slipped through the cracks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:10
|
|
|
icantfindaname posted:Bangladesh has had like dozens of journalists stabbed to death by Muslim extremists for blasphemy in the last few years? Less than died today in Belgium. If you add in the Paris attacks, you'd probably have to go back decades in Bangladesh to reach an equivalent death toll, if you could at all.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:11
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:But it's the Wahabbi mosques and the faith they peddle that get them to strap bombs to themselves. Disaffected youth is a global phenomenon, but the affliction seems to mutate rather nastily when mixed with Islamic extremist beliefs but no one wants to mention the I-word, as if it is some ingredient in a lethal cocktail which has to be censored out of any discussion on this brand of terrorism. I think it's a good idea to give Islam more scrutiny. But the conversation tends to veer very quickly into essentialism. Islam is not a religion of peace any more than Christianity is. Islam as it currently exists in many places does tend to incite violence more than Chrisitianity does, but we shouldn't view this is as some sort of immutable factor of the religion. I think the I/P conflict tends to overwhelm ME issues that have nothing to do with that conflict at all
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:11
|
|
|
The attack has been claimed by ISIL supposedly though I'm not finding any reliable sources EDIT: it's apparently a rumor started by some european politician that's been going around the news over here ANOTHER EDIT: on a similar note NOS (a large dutch news agency) had a huge scare going because they received a package with "some powder" in it, which turned out to be a false alarm. JMolen fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Mar 22, 2016 |
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:13
|
|
|
Gyre posted:Are you just dense? It's been shown time and again that isolating and oppressing people is a recipe for violence and extremism. That doesn't excuse their actions, but it does explain them. Hmm when the Jews, Italians and Irish were in isolated, economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods and didn't assimilate into mainstream culture I don't recall them bombing their host nations.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:13
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:139, 197 & 541 are all significantly above 100 days? So what you're saying is these formation periods are exceptionally long? Cool, we agree then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:14
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Hmm when the Jews, Italians and Irish were in isolated, economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods and didn't assimilate into mainstream culture I don't recall them bombing their host nations. Wrong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1919_United_States_anarchist_bombings
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Hmm when the Jews, Italians and Irish were in isolated, economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods and didn't assimilate into mainstream culture I don't recall them bombing their host nations. The Irish might not be the best example of the case you're trying to make.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:15
|
|
|
Confirmed dead now up to 27 
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:16
|
|
|
menino posted:I think it's a good idea to give Islam more scrutiny. But the conversation tends to veer very quickly into essentialism. Islam is not a religion of peace any more than Christianity is. Islam as it currently exists in many places does tend to incite violence more than Chrisitianity does, but we shouldn't view this is as some sort of immutable factor of the religion. I think the I/P conflict tends to overwhelm ME issues that have nothing to do with that conflict at all What would you consider fair and effective scrutiny of Islam, out of curiosity?
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:16
|
|
|
yeah the irish were not exactly peaceful
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:16
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Hmm when the Jews, Italians and Irish were in isolated, economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods and didn't assimilate into mainstream culture I don't recall them bombing their host nations.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omagh_bombing ...About that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:16
|
|
|
Celexi posted:Lmao it clearly is working out great
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:17
|
|
|
Oh come on, that was almost a century ago. It's not that you're wrong, but there are better examples.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:18
|
|
|
edit: beaten
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:18
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:139, 197 & 541 are all significantly above 100 days? So what you're saying is these formation periods are exceptionally long? Cool, we agree then.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:18
|
|
|
I'm curious how the inability for Belgium to form a national government lead to these terror attacks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:19
|
|
|
I don't think the time it takes to form government is issue as long the previous one is still managing until new one comes in, in Portugal our last election it took quite a while for the new government to finally come in
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:20
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:What would you consider fair and effective scrutiny of Islam, out of curiosity? Eh that's tough. Let's not say "Islam" cuz that's a bit broad, and a lot of these guys are secular, even after they snap. But I think it's reasonable to assume higher rates of violence from large concentrated historically Muslim immigrant groups in urban areas in the West. What kind of reaction is appropriate though, I'm not sure. These are very rare attacks but they are catastrophic, so even a crackdown won't really make a difference in most cases because it's already such a statistical outlier. What's the difference in the public psyche between one major attack in three years versus two? Is that worth the repression? I don't know.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:20
|
|
|
Rakosi posted:Oh come on, that was almost a century ago. It's not that you're wrong, but there are better examples. His analogy was referring to historical immigrant groups, so this is exactly in that wheelhouse.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:22
|
|
|
Celexi posted:I don't think the time it takes to form government is issue as long the previous one is still managing until new one comes in, in Portugal our last election it took quite a while for the new government to finally come in Yeah, it's not like national debt payments stop happening or judges aren't appointed in Belgium because there's "no government." There's a caretaker government formed out of the outgoing political government that keeps the lights on and everything running as normal but they can't make significant legislative changes.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:22
|
|
|
Okay, let's use the Irish as an example. The occupation of Ireland by the UK, coupled with a religious element drove violence, yes. However the IRA attacked political and military targets, gave specific warning in advance of attacks and was willing to reach a political solution. Additionally the overseas Irish diaspora was used for fundraising not for bombing Washington and Ottawa. A better example might be Chinese Americans. They faced extreme racism, were shut out of the economy, lived in ethnic ghettos, had cultural and religious differences and took a long time to assimilate.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:23
|
|
|
Kurdish station "Rudaw" saying that ISIS claimed the attacks. So far that's the only source that says that, so take it with a grain of salt.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:24
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:Less than died today in Belgium. If you add in the Paris attacks, you'd probably have to go back decades in Bangladesh to reach an equivalent death toll, if you could at all. Shift those goal posts!
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:25
|
|
|
Archer666 posted:Kurdish station "Rudaw" saying that ISIS claimed the attacks. So far that's the only source that says that, so take it with a grain of salt. Rudaw is a bit sketchy on inter-Kurdish politics, but when it comes to something like this they're pretty reliable. They deal with ISIS a lot as you'd expect, so if it's popped up on social media in ISIS circles or something, they'd know about it. Still no sure thing, but it's pretty likely ISIS has at least claimed the attacks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:26
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Okay, let's use the Irish as an example. The occupation of Ireland by the UK, coupled with a religious element drove violence, yes. However the IRA attacked political and military targets, gave specific warning in advance of attacks and was willing to reach a political solution. Additionally the overseas Irish diaspora was used for fundraising not for bombing Washington and Ottawa. You need to read up on the IRA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Friday_%281972%29
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:26
|
|
|
shrike82 posted:I'm curious how the inability for Belgium to form a national government lead to these terror attacks.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:28
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Okay, let's use the Irish as an example. The occupation of Ireland by the UK, coupled with a religious element drove violence, yes. However the IRA attacked political and military targets, gave specific warning in advance of attacks and was willing to reach a political solution. Additionally the overseas Irish diaspora was used for fundraising not for bombing Washington and Ottawa. So you agree Ireland is the example that works against your own argument? The Irish attacked political and military targets because the IRA had history of working as an actual army and was able to organise openly. ISIS work in the shadows and don't want to attack political and military targets because terrorism achieves their goals faster. You're trying to use the differences in organisation post-radicalisation to justify a ridiculous argument that's simply not based in fact. Social inclusion, including normal non-wahhabist Islam, is a protective factor against violence. Exclusion and alienation are predictive factors for violence. None of this is controversial and ISIS are not an exceptional case just because they know how to use the internet and prefer chaotic attacks to economic/military ones.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:29
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:I'd actually like to see a source on the 100 days too, because that's way longer than government formation here in Denmark. I mean, our roughly 1-2 weeks might be exceptionally fast, but still, 100 days seems crazy. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historisch_overzicht_van_kabinetsformaties_in_Nederland
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:29
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Hmm when the Jews, Italians and Irish were in isolated, economically disadvantaged neighbourhoods and didn't assimilate into mainstream culture I don't recall them bombing their host nations. Yea they just made mafias
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:29
|
|
|
Frosted Flake posted:Okay, let's use the Irish as an example. The occupation of Ireland by the UK, coupled with a religious element drove violence, yes. However the IRA attacked political and military targets, gave specific warning in advance of attacks and was willing to reach a political solution. Additionally the overseas Irish diaspora was used for fundraising not for bombing Washington and Ottawa. Islam is not a necessary condition for bombing civilians. Full stop! Doesn't mean it's not correlated and could be used a shorthand, but this is Sam Harris territory.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:33
|
|
|
34 dead now, and a third bomb found at the brussels airport.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:33
|
|
|
Why is everyone in the news jumping to "Islamic Terrorism" before all the facts are out?
----------------
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:34
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:The point is that an inability to form governments is indicative of an inability to properly cooperate, something which is generally pretty useful if you want to govern effectively. Plus as Antti points out, it prevents significant legislative changes, which is probably where anti-radicalization efforts fall under now. Basically, it doesn't seem like Belgian politicians have the will or ability to effectively deal with the mess they've created over the last few decades, on a level beyond what you see in most of the rest of Europe. Legislation of "everyday affairs" and "urgent legislation" are allowed for the interim government. The only ones that are excluded are important but not urgent changes to legislation, and I think anti-terrorism and even crime fighting efforts are considered urgent.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 7, 2024 07:04 |
|
|
the trump tutelage posted:Shift those goal posts! I'm forced to believe you don't know what this phrase means.
|
|
#
?
Mar 22, 2016 13:37
|
|