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baw posted:ted cruz has it figured out https://twitter.com/TPM/status/712264340536172544 why the hell aren't politicians just openly saying "Saudi Arabia" surely, surely, there must be someone who understands what's happening and hasn't yet been bribed.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:13
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Rakosi posted:Clearly I was talking about Indonesia. That's the point I'm making. You were talking about Islam, which is by far larger and has more aspects that what you wanted to talk about. Don't say "Islam" if you mean a very specific part of Islam that most muslims have nothing to do with.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:14
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Spangly A posted:why the hell aren't politicians just openly saying "Saudi Arabia" Trump has done exactly that. ----------------
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Mar 22, 2016 14:17
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:The thread started with accusing people of making excuses for terrorists but then we have posts like this. I condemn all acts of terrorism, but you have to deal with the problem according to the circumstances. In the case of the IRA or local middle eastern terrorists, you have to initiate some kind of peace talks while in the case of Islamist terrorists in Europe the state has to crush them with a iron fist (the terrorists and their supporters, not all Muslims). Related: The support for suicide attacks is not just limited to Wahabists http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-east/pg-2014-07-01-islamic-extremism-10/
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Mar 22, 2016 14:17
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GaussianCopula posted:There is pretty good evidence that Belgium is not in danger of doing to much with regards to repression of terrorism. Shut up about Belgium if you know nothing about Belgium. Rakosi posted:5) Ban it. Deport all Imams that preach it, and close all Mosques that have an overbearing tradition in it. Make preaching of such ideologies a hate crime and illegal.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:18
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Deltasquid posted:Often. Belgium is in a limbo state between federal and confederal model and we have constitutional articles stating "We agreed to do X some day, but will wait for a better time to implement it" like giving the states the residual competences instead of the federal state. There's a list of things the federal level is competent in, but so far it is not yet implemented. It's very much a baby steps process of agreeing on specific fields of law or even specific issues (financial aid for youth clubs!) that are devolved one by one, pretty much. Spangly A posted:why the hell aren't politicians just openly saying "Saudi Arabia"
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Mar 22, 2016 14:18
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CSM posted:So jailing and deporting religious extremists, or basically what has already been happening and it hasn't magically made terrorism disappear. Not to the degree necessary.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:19
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GaussianCopula posted:I condemn all acts of terrorism, but you have to deal with the problem according to the circumstances. In the case of the IRA or local middle eastern terrorists, you have to initiate some kind of peace talks while in the case of Islamist terrorists in Europe the state has to crush them with a iron fist (the terrorists and their supporters, not all Muslims). Do you just quote from this routine? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkEEqXT3uQ
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Mar 22, 2016 14:20
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GaussianCopula posted:I condemn all acts of terrorism, but you have to deal with the problem according to the circumstances. In the case of the IRA or local middle eastern terrorists, you have to initiate some kind of peace talks while in the case of Islamist terrorists in Europe the state has to crush them with a iron fist (the terrorists and their supporters, not all Muslims). If it becomes apparent that these attacks are actually ISIS linked the root cause of the problem IS a 'local' middle eastern terrorist organisation though. If you support peace talks with ISIS I'll retract my implied criticism of your double standards.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:21
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botany posted:That's the point I'm making. You were talking about Islam, which is by far larger and has more aspects that what you wanted to talk about. Don't say "Islam" if you mean a very specific part of Islam that most muslims have nothing to do with. You're painting the use of the word with broader and broader inclusions to try make it unusable and put words in my mouth. The reason I used it (in the context of Islamic terror in Europe) was clearly in regard to the role that I think the Islamic community (IN EUROPE) has to take in having a transparent analysis of its most closed communities. I have almost unfailing, I think, used "Wahhabism" when talking about the source of the particular sect responsible. I see no reason why I can't use both, for different reasons.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:How often do you need to change your constitution? And is it done entirely without the general public getting a (direct) say in the matter? Not directly relevant to the topic, but I would like to know. I'm not getting in-depth on this (in part because I'm not familiar with the specifics, but here's a wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_reform_in_Belgium Basically un-touched from independence to 1970, then about once every 10 years on average.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:22
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CSM posted:So jailing and deporting religious extremists, or basically what has already been happening and it hasn't magically made terrorism disappear. Let me add international sanctions (or military action if that doesn't work) on Saudi Arabia to the list then. And by the way, we haven't been doing this already, or properly enough.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:25
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GaussianCopula posted:Not to the degree necessary. "We need to solve the problem with more force against minorities". Rakosi posted:Let me add international sanctions (or military action if that doesn't work) on Saudi Arabia to the list then. And by the way, we haven't been doing this already, or properly enough. how do you propose we prevent suicide bombers? do you actually want all governments to try to read all conversations? by procedure, suicide bombings are used exactly because it's really not hard to pull off. A Buttery Pastry posted:I see. Seems weird to me, but I guess it makes sense given the federal/confederal model Belgium has. Donald Trump and understanding aren't things that spring to my mind together.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:27
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forkboy84 posted:139, 197 & 541 are all significantly above 100 days? So what you're saying is these formation periods are exceptionally long? Cool, we agree then. Calling Belgium dysfunctional is operating at babby-level of understanding. Our country is a mess and it's not quite clear how everything just doesn't cave in, but for some reason it doesn't. In fact, we're very much a country that just keeps chugging along, political crises or not. The argument about Belgian dysfunctionality being to blame for the terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels looks at the nature of Brussels (French-majority city in a traditionally Flemish region, it's own political entity outside of Flanders and Wallonia, the centre of one of the most important political disputes in Belgium) and assumes that this is the reason why Molenbeek is what it is. But in essence, there's very little difference between Molenbeek and the French banlieus or any other poor, immigrant community enclaves in the world. The unique situation in Brussels/Belgium is barely relevant here. Which police district has authority over Molenbeek and why there isn't a single police district for the entirety of Brussels - that's just a red herring. It doesn't explain why we fail to prevent radicalisation, because those actual reasons are pretty much exactly the same as the reasons why, for instance, the French banlieus have the same problems. But of course, from a foreigner's perspective, it fits. Because Belgian politics and Belgian society are notoriously difficult to understand and needlessly complicated. And us Belgians, we're happy to play along because it's a narrative that really fits rather well into Belgian political grudges and it's one that doesn't shine a light on our actual problem - our complete and utter failure towards our immigrant and poor communities.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:29
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Rakosi posted:You're painting the use of the word with broader and broader inclusions to try make it unusable and put words in my mouth. The reason I used it (in the context of Islamic terror in Europe) was clearly in regard to the role that I think the Islamic community (IN EUROPE) has to take in having a transparent analysis of its most closed communities. I have almost unfailing, I think, used "Wahhabism" when talking about the source of the particular sect responsible. Indonesia is literally the world's largest muslim population center. I'm not sure how that constitutes an overly broad interpretation of the word "Islam" on my part. Of course you meant Islamic communities in Europe, and obviously I understand that. But the overly broad use of "Islam" where "local radical Wahhabist community" would be correct means we get poo poo like this: quote:Hate crimes targeting Muslims, their mosques and businesses, have tripled this year [...] There have been reports of anti-Islamic attacks across the country wherever Muslims live. Girls wearing hijabs have been harassed. Mosques have been defaced and targeted by arsonists. One Muslim woman was menaced by a man with a knife. A Queens shopkeeper was beaten-up by a customer shouting anti-Muslim slurs.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:29
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:If it becomes apparent that these attacks are actually ISIS linked the root cause of the problem IS a 'local' middle eastern terrorist organisation though. If you support peace talks with ISIS I'll retract my implied criticism of your double standards. I support peace talks between Sunnites and Shiites in the middle east. It's probably an interesting question how the ability to flee shifts the demographics of the Syrian population, as most of the moderates leave the country.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:30
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you know, the catholic community really needs to take responsibility for hiding the IRA. And the protestants have got to sort out their American crazed gunmen. Oh wait, those sentences don't make any loving sense.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:32
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GaussianCopula posted:Not to the degree necessary.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:32
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Spangly A posted:"We need to solve the problem with more force against minorities". Spangly A posted:Donald Trump and understanding aren't things that spring to my mind together.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:36
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GaussianCopula posted:I support peace talks between Sunnites and Shiites in the middle east. It's probably an interesting question how the ability to flee shifts the demographics of the Syrian population, as most of the moderates leave the country. Does this involve ISIS in some sort of negotiated settlement? For obvious reasons I see no political will for this happening any time soon. I anticipate the status quo (of low level military action against Islamists in the ME and corresponding violence against Western civilians) is sadly just going to continue for like 50+ years.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:38
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A Buttery Pastry posted:I don't think Trump is half the buffoon he pretends to be, and it's not like it's super difficult to put two and two together. ....meh, that gives Trump a little too much credit.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:38
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ModernMajorGeneral posted:Does this involve ISIS in some sort of negotiated settlement? For obvious reasons I see no political will for this happening any time soon. No. ISIS needs to be eradicated but Sunnites need to be involved in a negotiated settlement.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:39
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CSM posted:Good, jailing hundreds of people for thought crimes is a terrible idea. I may have posted dumb poo poo about Belgium but I'm glad you're still sane and making good arguments despite this horrendous tragedy ModernMajorGeneral posted:Does this involve ISIS in some sort of negotiated settlement? For obvious reasons I see no political will for this happening any time soon. I don't think the oil lasts that long
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Mar 22, 2016 14:42
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Spangly A posted:how do you propose we prevent suicide bombers? do you actually want all governments to try to read all conversations? by procedure, suicide bombings are used exactly because it's really not hard to pull off. Consider Wahhabism a hostile, illegal cult. The government that sponsors hostile agents in our states is a hostile government. Give them a chance to remove all influence in this area, and if they do not; sever ties with that state, expel all diplomatic missions, wind down trade and sever alliances. Include attempts of internet recruitment into the sect as acts of hostility. Make it illegal for anyone (but probably in practice, Muslims) to knowingly not report or otherwise shield preachers or members of this particular sect (in the same way that priests can be prosecuted in some jurisdictions for not reporting confessions of certain natures). I have no qualms with going full Fingermen on Wahhabists.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:44
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Is Saudi Arabia's involvement that they want ISIS to get rid of Shias and any collateral damage to the West is just whatever?
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Mar 22, 2016 14:47
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Wahhabism and Saudi mosques have been shown to have a negligible impact on the radicalisation of those who end up fighting in Syria. (those who come from Belgium, anyway) Most, if not all, are radicalised by family members, friends or whoever in their social networks.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:48
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No politician that values reelection (or reelection of their party) will sanction Saudi Arabia, as they will immediately enact an oil embargo and drive prices through the roof. The rabble will blame the politicians in charge, and their replacement will give an even sloppier blowjob to the Saudis in recompense.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:48
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Banning Wahhabism and Saudi Arabia won't stop terrorist attacks. These are partly to blame for alot of Muslims being regressive and Islamic communities' social oppressiveness. But those regressive asshats largely aren't the guys blowing themselves up. It's going to be some dude, 20-30 who for whatever reason has found a new raison d'etre in Islamic identity and (in his mind) taking a stand against those who oppress and kill muslims. These guys don't care about Islamic law and theology they care about Islamic identity. They aren't radicalized in a mosque, they're radicalized on the internet (or in prison).
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Mar 22, 2016 14:48
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So, it is confirmed that ISIS did it? Or just very probable?
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Mar 22, 2016 14:49
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You don't need force against minorities to treat Saudi Arabia as a hostile state. Saudi Arabia is just one fundie petrostate. Radical Islam could be erased if people were ready to move into renewables or pay more at the pump, but that's hard/costs money, so... They don't have anything other then Oil.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:50
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CSM posted:Which terrorists? The Paris terrorists? They were 5 French and 2 Belgian nationals. Not immigrants. Like this matters? People here in general don't go "oh he has a French passport and he's born and raised here so he's French," they go "he's an Arab/Muslim who has a French passport."
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Mar 22, 2016 14:52
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The problem is the failure of the postcolonial Arab states in Egypt/Iraq/Syria and also North Africa. The Saudis suck but are more tangential IMO
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Mar 22, 2016 14:53
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Volkerball posted:Speculation, but something to keep in mind. R. Mute posted:Wahhabism and Saudi mosques have been shown to have a negligible impact on the radicalisation of those who end up fighting in Syria. (those who come from Belgium, anyway) Most, if not all, are radicalised by family members, friends or whoever in their social networks.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:57
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Boris Galerkin posted:Like this matters? People here in general don't go "oh he has a French passport and he's born and raised here so he's French," they go "he's an Arab/Muslim who has a French passport."
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Mar 22, 2016 14:58
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Elias_Maluco posted:So, it is confirmed that ISIS did it? Or just very probable? A reliable source(According to this thread) confirmed that ISIS claimed the attack as theirs.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:01
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rudatron posted:How exactly has it been 'shown'?
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Mar 22, 2016 15:05
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rudatron posted:This is a really weak and victim-blaming excuse, prosecutors have to be able to do their job, the terrorists and terrorists alone must accept responsibility.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:05
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R. Mute posted:Local news here reported on a study that said maybe one in twenty Belgian Syria fighters were - possibly - recruited via a mosque. that's got absolutely nothing to do with a discussion on the impacts of state-funded extremist-leaning religious sects on a community.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:07
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R. Mute posted:Local news here reported on a study that said maybe one in twenty Belgian Syria fighters were - possibly - recruited via a mosque.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:11
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These neo-nazi groups merely use the same symbology and language as the actual historical nazis, but it turns out very few of them are actually related to any of the original nazis. Ergo there is no relationship -> this is what your logic implies.
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Mar 22, 2016 15:13
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