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A Buttery Pastry posted:You don't need force against minorities to treat Saudi Arabia as a hostile state. Saudi Arabia is just one fundie petrostate. Radical Islam could be erased if people were ready to move into renewables or pay more at the pump, but that's hard/costs money, so... They don't have anything other then Oil.
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Mar 22, 2016 14:50
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icantfindaname posted:The problem is the failure of the postcolonial Arab states in Egypt/Iraq/Syria and also North Africa. The Saudis suck but are more tangential IMO That is a problem. When it comes to fundamentalist Islam Saudi money is the reason all those other problems manifest in different way then say postcolonial African states right next to the North African states. One crazy-rear end ideology is bankrolled with literal billions, the other has to do with whatever Soviet surplus poo poo they can scrounge up and can barely pull of attacks in their own countries. There are plenty of poisonous organizations, etc. in the world that would love to blow poo poo up in European capitals (or other capitals, alternatively). Even ISIS gets most of its revenue from oil sales because there is always someone buying. Let's not. Let's buy less oil and then no oil as fast as we loving can, and not just because terrorism (though why enviromental groups haven't been yelling "YOUR MONEY GOES TO TERRORISTS" 24/7 I don't know, it's not like if people care if it is really happening in each specific case)
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Mar 22, 2016 15:52
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GaussianCopula posted:Everyone in a 2km radius (that's about how big Molenbeek is) from the place where the guy who was part of a terrorist attack with several hundred fatalities. I'm not advocating to search every Muslim home in Belgium/Europe. Molenbeek is like 50-60% non-Muslim. Belgium does not keep religious records of its populace in some secret Inquisition box somewhere. So are you advocating for a mass search or have them administer some sort of religious test for everyone in the neighborhood?
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Mar 22, 2016 17:25
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Arkane posted:Nope, I would indeed say it is accurate to describe my view as "Islam itself is unacceptable" and that its ideas are abhorrent & should be wiped out. I don't think that is discriminatory at all, no more than my similar view on Scientology. Market capitalism, ideologies branching out of it, and horrible actions in the name of them have and continue to kill more people then Islam ever has. You could make this argument for any ideology or religion that is old or widespread enough. Why can they exist within a free society but Islam somehow can't? Why is Islam specifically a cult because less then a percentage of its believers twist it, but none of the others are? It's not that your reasoning is in itself illogical, but your unipolar way of applying it sure as hell is. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 17:30
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Arkane posted:What do you think the final words of the perpetrators were? Was it the Takbir? And again, this is not something that can be placed on one religion or ideology. Every set of beliefs that is old or ancient enough has had horrible things done in its name by people who believe in it. Yes, the particular brand of ideology they used as their justification happens to be a part of a massive set of beliefs ascribed by 1.5 billion people around the world. Literally any ideology that size has some crazy people in it. Why do you stop at Islam? Is it a coincidence that lot of horrible violent people around the world happen to be part of the Abrahamic faiths? Or religious in general? It's not coincidence that lot of the attackers are Wahhabists, because Wahhabists are an organization financed by the world's addiction to oil and thus have more money to spend towards their aims then other crazy groups in the world. Arkane posted:In a society where women are supposed to be equal to men, where domestic violence is illegal, where homosexuality is not a crime, where freedom of religion exists, and where violence is completely unacceptable, the tenets espoused by Islam that are in conflict with these principles should be criticized at every turn, always, and forever. And they aren't? Have you been living under a rock since 9/11? Not a day has passed since I can remember that someone on some public thing doesn't criticize Islam. What exactly are you even going for here because that wasn't the answer to that question at all. Anti-multiculturalism is an ideology utterly incompatible with a free society as well, as the vast majority of free societies implicitly ascribe to it and the times when they were not free societies were when they were implicitly monocultural. Still belief in it doesn't mean that you can't exist in a free society or that there isn't a more moderate ideology where it derives from that is much larger.
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Mar 22, 2016 18:08
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tsa posted:Great article, this is exactly what I've been saying for a long time. The left really needs to get their heads out of the sand on this and realize there is a wide middle ground they are ceding for no good reason whatsoever. The left spends plenty of time criticizing Islam. In fact when it comes to Petro States and their horrific human rights abuses and funding of international terrorism it seems to be the left who is mostly being loud and leftist groups that bring that out. Right-wingers only bring that out when they are talking about Muslims who are fleeing those human rights abuses and terrorism, which is pretty strange. In our lifetimes, when other crazy groups had money or power or backers with both it was them that did horrible poo poo, not Islamists. One way or other those people had their money cut off, usually by military means - but before you propose bombing even more poo poo out of ISIS, I don't think the Americans were buying oil from say, the Nazis when they were bombing the poo poo out of them and there wasn't some bigger Nazi Party right next to Germans feeding them with money and guns and who was one of US's closest allies  I'm just saying, as a leftist, I don't see the right talking about this much, in fact their criticism seems to be almost 100% on individual Muslims coming to Western countries. Maybe you can point me towards such material (that isn't at the same time used as criticism/suspicion of an unrelated Muslim) DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 18:23
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Effectronica posted:I just saw a devout Muslim doctor. Can the brain trust in this thread tell me if she's sewn a bomb into my arm? Am I a terrorist now? If you eat five strips of American bacon within 24h of being contaminated by Islamofascism, the inherent anti-Islam effect in pig should help negate the Islamic particles in your system If you're Jewish you're hosed I guess, that's why Israelis are so crazy
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Mar 22, 2016 18:33
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Mange Mite posted:Zionists actually pioneered the modern suicide bomb terrorist. The infection runs the other way it all started with Abraham
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Mar 22, 2016 18:37
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tsa posted:Then why are the terrorists so well protected by their own community, even in western countries? Why is any criminal? They find old Nazis like every other week dude.
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Mar 22, 2016 18:41
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Arkane posted:Because people are good, and it's a high bar to clear to brainwash someone to do truly bad stuff like killing someone who is innocent. People aren't good. People who have most of their needs met and live at some level of subsistence are mostly good. Our great-grandparents generation were, compared to us, bloodcurdling maniacs who fought two world wars, yet managed to build the greatest economic rise in world history. It's not a high bar at all, in fact I'd say considering the sadly thousands of examples throughout history (millions that we don't know about) it's really really really really really loving quick if the people in question are desperate enough.
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Mar 22, 2016 18:48
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:The poor people who suffer more under the IS are Yazidis, various Christians, Zoroastrians, Jews and Atheists. Yeah ISIS hasn't killed a single Shia.
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Mar 22, 2016 19:06
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MysteriousStranger posted:One of the functions of a strong secular government is to blunt the violent and sharper edges of religions and prevent the majority from imposing their views on the minority. That's worked enough in the west that Christianity bears little resemblance to how it was when it was in power, but that's not the case in the middle east where they take their religion uncut and old timey and such governments (for the most part) do not actually exist. Used to, though, when the Commies funded them. Also not only are the Gulf Countries medieval on religion, they are also absolute freaking monarchies. I think most people forget that until their worthless land was discovered to have tons of free money under it (way to go dinosaurs), they were still not too far removed from medieval times. How the gently caress anyone thinks handing trillions + all modern weaponry they want short of nukes to that kind of society would result into anything good. It's like giving Genghis Khan motorcycles & AK-47s and I'm only little bit exaggerating. Fun fact: Prior finding oil most Saudi income came from the pilgrimage to Mecca. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:28
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GaussianCopula posted:About 1% of our Oil imports come from the Saudis. They are mostly exporting to Asia these days. 1% of 876 million barrels a year (2.4 million a day) , even at the current poo poo price of 40 bucks still comes to 350 million dollars per year which buys you a lot of terror. Of course alongside that it's good to sell weapons to these guys so they can be sure to keep their Wahhabist Petro-state operating and protected: http://www.dw.com/en/weapons-go-to-conflict-zones-the-money-comes-to-germany/a-18798104 When you are as huge as Germany, even a little bit is actually a big bit! Especially when you consider who is getting that money. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/31/combat-terror-end-support-saudi-arabia-dictatorships-fundamentalism The War on Terror is so goddamn loving retarded. It's like James Bond spent the whole movie just loving unloading on Nick Nack and the next five movies he just keeps on beating the poor guy while occasionally just handing Scaramanga money for really no good reason whatsoever alongside a golden F-16 or two DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:42
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Nermal posted:The amount of terrorism perpetrated in the name of Christianity is utterly miniscule in comparison to what's perpetrated by Islamists, it's ridiculous to make an equivalence. If you can't see that Islam is different, you're just being willfully blind. How many Christian terror groups sit on a cool $350 billion a year? Probably not too many. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 20:51
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JohannesSilentio posted:Why is it problematic to discuss the ideology of the terrorists who committed the act in question? Should Islam be exempt from critique or comparison to another Abrahamic faith? People don't want to discuss the ideology of the terrorists, they want to conflate a minority sect with ready cash they themselves contribute to, as representative of a religion of 1.5 billion people. If people want to talk about Wahhabism and our direct financial, military and diplomatic support of it, that would be great!
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Mar 22, 2016 21:12
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Crowsbeak posted:Hey I am willing to discus Wahabism. I think its something the west should ask why it tolerates it. Well, I think handing it billions and billions of dollars to spread its ideology by force and subversion goes way past "toleration"! OwlFancier posted:If I staple a bit of mein kampf to a bible does that make christianity inherently evil? God is arguably worse then Hitler and certainly as petty so I don't think the book would be more evil as opposed to more schizophrenic about Jews DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Mar 22, 2016 |
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Mar 22, 2016 21:23
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FourLeaf posted:Yeah we pretty much subsidize them. Makes any proposed solution utterly useless if we don't deal with that. Yeah and if any Europeans here are crooning about getting their poo poo from Russia, that cash goes straight to Assad who is the biggest customer for oil...straight from ISIS. Were not only funding terrorism but the refugee crisis too, and some have the gall to whine about the people who flee from the people we give money and guns to.
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Mar 22, 2016 21:36
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Quorum posted:Ah good I'm glad we could get down to the real bad guys in this bombing in Belgium, Amerikkka Well it would help if they didn't bankroll the guys who bankrolled the bombing in Belgium I'm not saying they necessarily want the oil money to go where it goes but they sure don't seem to care that much
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Mar 22, 2016 21:48
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blowfish posted:So basically islam is to religion as GUN is to policy in forumsland. Religion is to religion. See some of kyrie eleison's greatest hits
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Mar 22, 2016 22:42
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steinrokkan posted:The matter of fact is that there's no 100% sure way of preventing people from getting sucked into a radical ideology, religious or otherwise. See - Red Brigades, Red Army Factions. It can happen to people from all possible backgrounds, and simply improving material conditions won't help because no matter how well-off you are, you are not an automaton and can always choose to go against the flow, so to speak. There's always the element of free will to destroy the idea that human actions are determined by their environment. What we also can do is to recognize which ideology calls for violence against our nations and stop giving it money. In fact to me, literally financing and arming the people wanting to kill us is really the first in "things we need to stop doing right now". I think making sure Salafist Sunni Islam doesn't have billions of dollars of our money to spread it's ideology is a pretty great way to reduce its exposure!
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Mar 23, 2016 10:24
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Jippa posted:When ever I read peoples opinions on here or on the news sites or even hear from politicians. The scary impression I get is that nobody really knows what to do about the situation. Here is a clue - don't give them money. Sounds pretty simple but our countries are literally handing billions of dollars to the people financing, supporting and planning these attacks, constantly. Instead of focusing on the end results we could not give Wahhabists money. Sure they would still do poo poo, but you can do lot less poo poo with sand and oil then you can do with billions of dollars.
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Mar 23, 2016 11:43
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btw. just because there isn't a national racist policy doesn't mean that minorities aren't made to feel different by individual racists. I'm pretty sure that can cause some dudes to snap and be drawn to a percieved community.
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Mar 23, 2016 14:53
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steinrokkan posted:This reasoning can be used to excuse literally anything. I'm not excusing anything, just stating a fact.
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Mar 23, 2016 16:27
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rudatron posted:Here's an idea: maybe the unemployment is higher because they're not integrating. You understand that if you're applying and working at a job, you have to actually fit in with your coworkers around you, right? Well, apply that to employers as a whole, and you have your answer. The data you show doesn't itself explain anything. It shows this discrepancy exists, it doesn't show why. Are you under the impression that there are no homegrown Westerners who are opposed to many free aspects of the Western culture? If Jehovas' Witnesses, neo-nazis, fundamentalist Christians, Orthodox Jews, Stalinists etc. can carry on living despite their awful beliefs and actions as long as they don't break the law (and homegrown fundies outnumber the imported ones by a great number) why the gently caress shouldn't fundie Muslims? Like if you asked your average European country if gay marriage, abortion, weed, black people existing in Europe etc. is OK and you'd get 15-40% saying it is not, easily. You seem to have no interest in hounding them to the same degree despite many such groups actually having tangible power over our political process and having in the past trying to prevent social advances, and succeeding in many cases. As long as you don't voice your opinions or post them on facebook any employment should be open to you. That's one part living in democracy. Now homegrown groups have the advantage of being established in their own countries but that doens't always mean that they have integrated except when they go to work. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Mar 23, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 23:27
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This issue is, anyway, entirely based on security, environmental and financial concerns. FIrst of all, anyone who goes to Syria or Iraq to fight and comes back should be loving arrested, what the gently caress? We're not talking about foreign fighters here. Some of these people aren't even of an immigrant background or Muslim background. These people are our BORN citizens, more often well-off then not, who go to fight for a nihilist genocidal organization against people who have no choice but to fight or die. They're insane monsters and 100 loving percent our responsibility. The lack of co-operation between European law, security and military organizations to organize and finance a common European framework and courts to try these people is frankly astounding considering how much we know about them and the lengths we go to hunt down old Serbian war criminals and ancient Nazis. As well as the seemingly complete non-existence of cooperation with Turkish and Iraqi security services who have in many cases spent their entire working careers doing this poo poo in infinite times worse situation. Belgium's police services have been revealed to be kind of disorganized and underfunded, whether because of government gridlock or outdated mode of operation, I don't know - there should be dedicated European-wide police force doing this anyway. The irony is that the loudest voices against Muslims are also the loudest forces against European integration on any level. Second of all we need to stop buying oil and financing figurative and literal Mecca of anti-Western fundamentalism holy poo poo. Not to mention Russia and Iran are so tangled in this poo poo that it's not like they are the better option. Norway and Venezuela can't exactly carry it on their own. Sorry, it might lead to economic destabilization and further conflicts but it's not something that can be avoided if we want to stop these attacks. Anyone who tries to further global warming denial and fight against removal of oil (and gas, again Russia/Iran) on a political level should be branded as someone wishing to finance terrorism and persecuted accordingly. If a crazy person wants to make a violent statement in the U.S. he goes to the closest gunstore and shoots up some place (majority white male Christians btw), if they do it in Europe they either have to be happy with just few casualties, be an autistic sperglord willing to spend years planning like Breivik, or turn to a ready-made organization willing to transport them, train them, arm them and give them internet fame for free because don't worry, we're paying for that poo poo! There are no other issues. We don't need to have a discussion about Islam, the Islamic community already had it a long time ago and the first and third generations don't really get up to this poo poo, and the ones in the second that do are a minuscule minority. The terrorists are not only unable to integrate with the community of their country but their own community of birth as well, they are no different from any other crazy person. They believe their parents and every other Muslim in Europe are heretics as well. https://mondediplo.com/1998/04/07islam http://mondediplo.com/2015/02/06charlie rudatron posted:I'm not going to give a poo poo about the employment rate of neo-nazis, nor is it the fault of the rest of society that being that kind of person means you can't get employment, or that it's harder. And if they starting bombing train stations, they are the ones who have done wrong, and hand winging about the rest of society treating them badly is bullshit. Except that those groups have actual power, have in the past and continue to commit violent actions, and have much better employment then immigrants. The actual shittiness of your opinions obviously does not determine your employment status or level of prosperity so you should probably stop claiming that it does. EDIT: Also no matter how much you want it thought crime will never be crime in a free Western society. Part of the deal is that we have to co-exist with shitheads whose head is full of poo poo. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 23, 2016 23:59
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GaussianCopula posted:It almost seems like a corrupt military dictatorship that is reliant on aid from the West is the optimal form of governance for certain countries until they have reached a standard of living where democracy becomes a valid option. How the gently caress is anything about the current situation "optimal". The Middle East is burning because the corrupt dictatorships reliant on aid from West (and in few cases Soviets) loving killed everyone except their pet mullahs except that the pet mullahs loving hate West and use all that sweet Western money to kill as many Westerners as possible. In the formerly Soviet countries they killed the mullahs too but that doesn't stop the ones on Western titty from sharing the wealth with the ones who go underground. How are people not seeing this forest yet?
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Mar 24, 2016 00:20
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MysteriousStranger posted:It's not pleasant but it's correct. When I was in the Navy the logic behind "no shaved heads except for boot camp, black people, and medical reasons" was because "we don't want to look like neonazis". Like it or not certain codes of dress or appears are associated with horrible people or the brutal treatment of others. Saying shaved heads on white people is neonazi and saying burka is controlling women isn't that far out there. These things associate with something negative and send a clear message, even if not intended. ROFL where do you live? I see literally at least fifty white people with shaved heads just by walking on the streets and it is completely loving fine.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:28
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MysteriousStranger posted:Those dictatorships are supported and backed because the alternative is a poo poo show. Religious violence, tribal violence, ethnic violence, do you really want to see what happens if the House of Saud loses control? Syria will look like paradise. Syria and every other shitshow in Middle East is either a direct result of those dictatorships and their policies or because of direct Western intervention. How in the living gently caress do you think religious, tribal, or ethnic violence begins? Someone gets on the top and starts handing out favors to their own people. In Egypt it's the military. In Libya it was the anti-monarchic tribes, in Syria the Alawites, in Iraq Sunnis, in Yemen Sunnis, etc. etc. etc. Those dictatorships will fall down in flames, either because of their people having enough or U.S. deciding to shock and awe them, but they are not stable creations by nature. All supporting them ensures that the final fallout will be that much bloodier. MysteriousStranger posted:I was simply saying when I was in the Navy that was the reason given why you should not. I see people with shaved heads all the time all races now, Washington DC, but I got the logic while I was in. Well that's really weird and not a common thing or belief shared by most people or militaries. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 00:34
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MysteriousStranger posted:That violence has been going on since before we were there or even existed as a country. Yes except that now we are directly financing that violence and providing them with weapons and getting attacked because of that on a constant basis in our own home countries and thus can't just wash our hands of it, genius.
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Mar 24, 2016 00:40
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MysteriousStranger posted:Not just the boots with a jackboot on their face and also cross border issues. Say Iran jumps in to back the Shia, then someone else. The entire loving region is a powder keg with borders that don't make sense, fundamentalists, and horrible governments just barely holding on. So in the fight against Islamic fundamentalism, the best case scenario in your opinion is to provide Islamic fundamentalists with unlimited money and weaponry
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Mar 24, 2016 00:47
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Baxta posted:I think he's referring to the second gen terrorists who have had loads of time to integrate. And they don't because of mental problems, behavioral problems, criminality, etc. You realize that they aren't integrated in their own communities either? That they go against their parents and neighbors too? We are not talking about a significant number of people, we are talking about lunatics who have a readymade terrorist organization financed and armed by the West to join in because of our oil addiction. Read these posts and actually understand them, do the barest loving effort to understand the continent you moved into and stop insulting actual natives. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 10:53
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Baudolino posted:I think we`ll just have to deal with this being the new normal. We can`t make sure that every single European Muslim likes it here and feels welcome. We can`t keep them all away from Islamic orgs no more then we can keep all the white boys away from the Neo-nazis. It just can`t be done. Nor can we remove the muslim population, nor can we ever hire enough spies and destroy enough civil liberties to keep tabs on every single person that wants to kill innocents. We can not finance them or give them weapons and we can more effectively arrest and prosecute the ones who go to Syria and Iraq to fight. Both these problems have solutions to them for gently caress's sake! It's not "Welp I guess there is nothing to do" problem. It's a problem largely perpetuated by the European right-wing, either the financial part which wants us to stay with oil, the anti-environmentalist one which wants us to stay with oil and the anti-European integration one which yells at any unified European solution to anything, as well as the anti-Muslim one which attacks both people fleeing ISIS and native Muslims and thus plays right into ISIS's hand with its propaganda. Nobody in this thread cares about them though because they don't go to a mosque. They are the ones standing in our way of fixing this issue (or making it as dangerous as communist terrorists are these days anyway). Bombing ISIS is just bombing the symptoms that we ourselves enable. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 11:05
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rudatron posted:You don't get to cleanly isolate the European right while ignoring the Islamic right! If one is purely symptomatic, and therefore absolved of blame, them both of them are! Alternately, you accept that they are both guilty, and get loving serious about it! I'm not ignoring the Islamic right genius, I'm saying we shouldn't give them money and guns and we should arrest our citizens if they fly over to work with the Islamic right or try to coordinate with them online and further European integration in order to combat radicalism more effectively continentwide! Wow that sure is ignoring it! I'm the only one serious about it, everyone else just wants to yell about Muslims when Islam or our relation to it doesn't have poo poo to do with solving the problem. All but a fraction of European muslims aren't interested in terrorism, the problem in regards to Islam is loving solved in Europe. Islam has no power in Europe. The European right does and they are actively working in furthering the goals of Wahhabist Muslim terrorism right here in their millions.
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Mar 24, 2016 12:03
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rudatron posted:They have power in these migrant communities! That's the reality of the situation, it's why these suspects were able to hide so long, why they existed on the first place - because of a local power structure that shielded and created them. Pretending this is just the fault of Europe ignores that. We're taking about organizations, were talking about a wall of silence that protects these organizations, and a wider base of people sympathetic to their cause. Pull your head out of the sand, recognize that it's not just about those evil euros, who are actually statistically the least racist group of people worldwide, and recognize that were also dealing with ideology. Not religion, I'm not one who believes that religions can't westernize, or that Islam is by necessity anti-western, but we are talking political ideology. Yeah, it's absolutely clear that you don't know anything you are talking about. It's not that hard to rent a random apartment or ask an acquaintance if this guy he does not know can stay here for hours. Moreover these people were part of organized crime (or petty crime) long before they became Wahhabists, and to my experience if you move in criminal circles you can always find someone to hold your poo poo or a place to lay low for a while. You think in a neighborhood with literal thousands of Middle-Eastern looking men a random passerby is at fault if he doesn't recognize someone? You think you're not able to hide in a place with unemployment, poverty, drug issues (and where you possibly grew up) without some sort of community-wide conspiracy being involved? You don't think there are other criminals in hiding right this moment who are being sought by authorities? Nobody else is at fault then at most a dozen people who hid these guys - and in many cases they were probably hid in unused apartments or with people who didn't know who they are. There is no European-born power structure that "created and shielded these people" there never has been. They're not given these teachings at home, by their friends in a school, at their job or in a mosque. These guys are rejected by (or reject) their own community and their country long before they even find radical Islam, then they become co-opted by a Western-financed terrorist organization BASED IN MIDDLE EAST. This organization then ships them TO THE MIDDLE EAST where they are trained and further radicalized, then they get back to Europe where the EUROPEAN authorities apparently don't give a flying gently caress about them. They're our citizens, the organization that radicalizes and gives them means to carry out attacks is financed by us, and its our authorities that either don't bother or lack the capacity to apprehend these people until they do some serious damage. The Muslim community in Europe (a ridiculous idea in itself, it just means "all the Muslims in Europe") has nothing to do with solving the situation because they didn't cause it in the first place, no matter how much you yell that they do. Or to say, they have no other responsibilities then to demand the same things then any other European should if they actually want to solve this situation - European security integration, end of oil. I'd add end of giving ISIS all the "Westerners hate Muslims, see!" propaganda to that too but I know some people will continue to whine about Muslims through the end of time, this is Europe after all. The insidious Arab has just replaced the Turk. Either way if you solve the two other issues whining about Muslims doesn't really matter. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 12:40
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rudatron posted:They got radicalized in belgium prisons, not in the middle east, that means the radicalization groups are local. They get radicalized in prisons and on the street, but that doesn't stop the majority of the people doing the initial radicalization from not being local, from foreign prisoners to recruiters sent to the fact that a lot of this thing is conducted online. rudatron posted:So that disproves the idea that they don't exist. And it absolutely is hard to simply rent a place if your the subject of a loving manhunt. For you, not for someone who knows you. And if you think some poverty-ridden inner city place doesn't have a thousand places you can stay for a few days without any official kind of deal in exchange for cash, you're kidding yourself. rudatron posted:Like criminal groups aren't detached from the society they operate in, rolling around in some kind of frictionless vacuum, it's a network of partial-legality that enables them. Most criminal groups are native to their countries of origin. This one is not and is spread and financed by non-locals, with the Europeans being just a tiny branch of expendable pawns. rudatron posted:Now add in the fact that we're not just dealing with a criminal group, but an ideological group, that recruits from a small community, and suddenly poo poo just got a lot more complicated! Yes, a small community where they get less then a percentage of people to join them. poo poo isn't complicated at all, we actually have pretty good understanding of who these people are and how they get where they are and throughout this thread you have been provided with multiple links and explanations to educate yourself. The fact that you intentionally ignore it does not mean that it is not real. rudatron posted:These groups are being hidden & protected by these communities, there's no other way they could exist. That's a complete fabrication of your own based on nothing. They aren't doing anything illegal. Neo-nazis recruit people too without being hidden and protected by their communities, because our laws allow that. Nowadays most of the recruiting is probably through internet which is infinitely more difficult to regulate. They start doing actual physical illegal stuff related to radical Islam only around the time they go to Middle East. rudatron posted:No the individual muslims in europe didn't cause it, any more than you could expect any random person to cause anything beyond their job (and maybe their consumer choices). But this problem exists, it's not going to solve itself, and the issue is more than just employment. It's ideology, it's organizations, it's politics. It must be dealt with head on. We know the ideology, the organizations and politics that keep Islamic fundamentalism operating, what we lack is the political will to change it, and that is due to European right wing groups of either the financial or the political bent. Muslims in Europe didn't cause it, period, except the individual criminals we need to persecute and convict far more efficiently. Muslims in the Middle East did, maybe we should stop giving them a shitload and shitload of money? rudatron posted:Like, it's funny, when we have people like Brevik doing horrible things, it brings up a real discussion about radical militia groups, and that's the right one to have I think. We acknowledge that the crime is political in nature, that it depends on a base of both propagandist support and encouragement, and that there's no excuse. What nobody is ever suggesting in those threads is to start raiding whatever Oslo neighborhood Breivik operated in, or demand the Christian Community of Europe to take action against him or any other Ideological Community that Breivik is tangentially connected to, because he is a lunatic. The difference between the Islamists and Breivik is that Breivik didn't have a massive billion dollar Western financed and protected violent ideological community to send his application to. Seriously, you do get that there are actual European-born full on white Christians who convert to Islam and go to Syria? Is the Muslim Community of Europe responsible for the wayward child of a middle-class French family that has been there since Charlemagne now too? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Mar 24, 2016 |
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Mar 24, 2016 14:12
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shrike82 posted:I'm not sure how you go from I can't get a job to I'm going to try to suicide bomb a nuclear plant. The same way you go from I can't get a job I'm going to shoot up an random mall?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:37
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MysteriousStranger posted:These things are not the same. They're not because there isn't a billion dollar network financed by us in Uganda or somewhere running a country and sponsoring spree shooters. shrike82 posted:I don't see African-Americans shooting up random malls so... Who said anything about African-Americans?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:49
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shrike82 posted:So not at all alike then Alike in the people that are doing it, but you seem to be completely fine with us paying for the training and arming one and not the other? Or do you want us paying for both? That seems weird.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:51
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shrike82 posted:Wait, you're saying that the Molenbeek terrorists were trained and armed by us? No, they were trained by the people we keep giving money and weapons to. Try to keep up, buddy.
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Mar 24, 2016 15:54
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shrike82 posted:Yeah, they're arabic terrorists - more reason to control immigration from the region Actually they were all born in Europe. Have you been following the news? And people wouldn't be immigrating from the region if we didn't keep feeding money and weapons to the people who want to brutally murder them. Why do you want to fund Islamic fundamentalists, forums poster shrike82?
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Mar 24, 2016 15:57
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